I've Challenged The People Of New York

[nogods]

We know enough to ban you twice:happy:

Oh yeah - go back and see why I was banned - for stating facts and law that ya' all didn't agree with. Banned for embarrassing the hell out of the posers who think they know the law.

That's how the place is run - if someone exposes ignorance they ban them.

It ain't a mensa convention over there, that's for sure.

 

[BC1]

Why does the state of NY not issue non-resident carry permits? In that case the entire state is a "gun free" zone to other US citizens who have to travel through it.

Wrong. You can travel through without a problem. NYC may hassle you but the rest of the state understands interstate transport.

 

[BC1]

Did you read that on the site or just make **** up as you go. Provide a link.

First, the site is wrong... I teach the NYS Penal Law. I can't cite a law that doesn't exist exept to tell you there are no provisions in either Article 265 (firearms and dangerous weapons) OR Article 400 (Licensing) that require a gun to be locked. Proper cause is what you make of it. For my wife it was convenience. As far as exemption from criminal charges when using an illegal handgun in your own home, it can be found in NYS PL S265.02(4)

Section 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree when:

(4) Such person possesses any loaded firearm. Such possession shall not, except as provided in subdivision one or seven, constitute a violation of this section if such possession takes place in such person's home or place of business.

NY caselaw supports this, including a case in which a perp shot an officer through his front door with an illegal handgun. He was holding his infant child when he did it. His conviction was overturned because the police didn't ID themselves and started breaking down the door in response to a DV call. New York allows the use of DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE to stop or prevent a burglary. Not bad ha? Castle doctrine is alive and well in NY, even against the police. Check the article at the end of my post.

Section 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

For the record I don't make things up. I'm very well educated in NYS penal law and criminal procedure law. I have taught many courses in firearm law and defense of justification.

You wanted citations? I believe in being thorough. BTW, the other person you're argueing with is a well respected NY attorney. Don't shoot the messenger over the facts he presents.

===================================================================================================
ARTICLE ON SHOOTING...

Appellate Court Throws Out Conviction Of Man Who Shot A Middletown Cop - 10/21/2011
Link Removed

MIDDLETOWN – The Appellate Division of State Supreme Court has tossed the conviction of Raymond Zayas, the Middletown man found guilty in Orange County Court in the July 24, 2007 shooting of Middletown Police Officer Christopher Dolan. He recovered from his wounds and returned to duty.

At issue was if police announced themselves at Zayas’ door before they kicked it in. Responding officers maintain they did announce they were with the police, but Zayas’ wife and neighbors said they did not identify themselves.

They had been called there for a report of a domestic dispute and were told there was a man with a knife and a child inside.

As officers kicked in the door, Zayas fired shots through it, striking one of the officers. He later emerged from the residence and surrendered to police.

The appellate judges also found the trial court erred in denying Zayas’ request for a justification charge on the assault and attempted assault charges, citing a resident’s right to use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably believes their home is being broken in to.

 

[BC1]

To those inside the Empire State or within the Big Apple: Imagine that you suddenly wake up bereft of your NY life. You, your family and friends reside and work halfway across the country. You have NO NYS or NYC carry permit, and NO CHANCE of getting one. Welcome to NYS and NYC, as seen by the REST of the US.

IIRC the Constitution says "the right of THE PEOPLE . . . ", not "the right of THE PEOPLE OF NEW YORK . . . ". HR 822 is an attempt to fix what shouldn't need fixing - and yes, that applies to all states and political subdivisions thereof.

As a fully law-abiding NON RESIDENT of New York, I am allowed to speak there, worship as I see fit there, travel freely there, assemble freely there and do MOST of the things enumerated in the Bill of Rights as "The right of the people". But I am NOT allowed to POSSESS - much less carry - arms in New York.

If you enjoy New York's gun laws, may the chains of your bondage rest lightly.

Gary

First, should someone move to NYS they can absolutely obtain a CCW permit. There are very few problems for residents and 1.2 million New York residents have them.

Second, the constitution has NEVER allowed the carry of a gun. A federal court decision in September 2011 ruled that denial of a carry permit does not constitute a complete ban on ownership and therefor does not violate the constitution. The ruling cites law as far back as 1887. Our view of the second amendment doesn't matter; only the supreme court definition matters. This was held in the recent landmark supreme court cases of D.C. v Heller and McDonald v. Chicago. FOR THE RECORD... I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS DECISION EITHER. But it is the law.

I don't have any bondage in NYS. I can go where I want unmolested. I can sit in a bar armed and have a beer without breaking the law. I can enter a restaurant, church, hospital, government building, bank or use public transportation without issue. I am not required to notify a LEO that I'm carrying. My permit is good for life and never needs renewal. I can keep my NYS CCW permit even after I move out of state.

Every state is one election away from eliminating the right to carry as federal law presently allows this. Every "shall issue" state has a provision for denying access to a firearm to those convicted of a crime or with a psychiatric issue. If you search the history in "gun friendly" states like PA you'll find cases of permit revocation based n nothing more than gossip, rumor or opinion of a sheriff.

 

[BIGJOHN621]

BC1, with all due respect, your statements are not entirely true. While you may be able to go unmolested in NYS, all of NYS is not the same and the rules are not consistent. New York is 100% based upon where you live. If where you live is gun-friendly, you can enjoy your freedoms. If where you live isn't, then you will NEVER get the freedoms you should. Also, there are many counties that have their own rules that are not in the Penal Codes, but are county police and sheriff policies that are followed to the letter. There is no standardization on any item, from reference letters to restrictions all the way to disqualifying histories. There are counties where you CAN NOT get an unrestricted, full carry CCW permit UNLESS you prove need, or pay a permit service a lot of money (such as yourself). The demonstration of need is also not consistent. In one county, you will be forced to produce CASH receipts of bank deposits of $5K or more for a period of 60 days and be forced to renew your license and re-demonstrate the need every 5 years, etc. Other counties will have different criteria. In some counties, you will receive a TARGET and HUNTING ONLY permit.

Second, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam and Rockland as well as the five boroughs of NYC do not offer "Valid Until Revoked", (which is the correct term, not "VALID FOR LIFE") permits. All of the permits in the counties mentioned are valid for either 5 years or 2 years and must be "re-certified" for renewal. They also state quite clearly that they need not have a reason for non-renewal.

Third, Counties have different requirements for obtaining the permits. For example, Westchester will not issue any permit without an NRA Basic Pistol Certificate. This is not so in other counties as the laws do not set forth this requirement. While this is not law, it is policy. Another policy, which is enforced (they came to my home), is that before they will allow you to purchase a 3rd handgun or more, you must have a secure storage (safe) method for your weapons. No, this isn't in the law anywhere, but is 100% true. A detective will visit you to verify you have a safe. (Great use of taxpayer money)

Lastly, you cannot carry in government office buildings in certain counties due to ordinances (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland), or in any courthouse or law enforcement station. The tough part about New York is that although there is a very strong county government system and, while there is state preemption on most firearm laws, the counties are the issuing authorities for permits and take a "follow my rules or else" stand.

As I previously said, trying to paint New York as gun-friendly or reasonable is just plain irresponsible. The shifting laws, standards and extreme penalties are ridiculous. While NY is not all negative, it has a very long way to go.

 

[twogunwilly]

First, the site is wrong... I teach the NYS Penal Law. I can't cite a law that doesn't exist exept to tell you there are no provisions in either Article 265 (firearms and dangerous weapons) OR Article 400 (Licensing) that require a gun to be locked.

Nowhere on the site says anything about having to lock up your guns. Maybe a class in reading comprehension would help you.

 

[BC1]

BC1, with all due respect, your statements are not entirely true. While you may be able to go unmolested in NYS, all of NYS is not the same and the rules are not consistent. New York is 100% based upon where you live. If where you live is gun-friendly, you can enjoy your freedoms. If where you live isn't, then you will NEVER get the freedoms you should. Also, there are many counties that have their own rules that are not in the Penal Codes, but are county police and sheriff policies that are followed to the letter. There is no standardization on any item, from reference letters to restrictions all the way to disqualifying histories. There are counties where you CAN NOT get an unrestricted, full carry CCW permit UNLESS you prove need, or pay a permit service a lot of money (such as yourself). The demonstration of need is also not consistent. In one county, you will be forced to produce CASH receipts of bank deposits of $5K or more for a period of 60 days and be forced to renew your license and re-demonstrate the need every 5 years, etc. Other counties will have different criteria.

Second, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam and Rockland as well as the five boroughs of NYC do not offer "Valid Until Revoked", (which is the correct term, not "VALID FOR LIFE") permits. All of the permits in the counties mentioned are valid for either 5 years or 2 years and must be "re-certified" for renewal. They also state quite clearly that they need not have a reason for non-renewal.

Third, Counties have different requirements for obtaining the permits. For example, Westchester will not issue any permit without an NRA Basic Pistol Certificate. This is not so in other counties as the laws do not set forth this requirement. While this is not law, it is policy. Another policy, which is enforced (they came to my home), is that before they will allow you to purchase a 3rd handgun or more, you must have a secure storage (safe) method for your weapons. No, this isn't in the law anywhere, but is 100% true. A detective will visit you to verify you have a safe. (Great use of taxpayer money)

Lastly, you cannot carry in government office buildings in certain counties due to ordinances (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland), or in any courthouse or law enforcement station. The tough part about New York is that although there is a very strong county government system and, while there is state preemption on most firearm laws, the counties are the issuing authorities for permits and take a "follow my rules or else" stand.

As I previously said, trying to paint New York as gun-friendly or reasonable is just plain irresponsible. The shifting laws, standards and extreme penalties are ridiculous. While NY is not all negative, it has a very long way to go.

I understand the confusion as these laws are convoluted in every state. I hate to see the words "cannot" and "never" in these posts because I've been successful in nearly every county. Application of most county ordinances will not pass state challenge. Judges are forbidden from arbitrarily making their own rules. They can try but these are unenforceable. NOGODS, a NYS attorney, has explained this in other threads. No county may enforce the some of the rules you note. If I come to your county and judges there don't want to issue an unrestricted carry, they are powerless to prevent me from carrying the gun:

S400.00(6.) License: validity. Any license issued pursuant to this section shall be valid notwithstanding the provisions of any local law or ordinance.

There is standardization as the permit process is governed by A400 in NYS PL. No county may deviate from the state law but the particulars and procedures may differ from county to county.

Regarding need, a federal court recently ruled that anyone in any state can be denied a permit to carry regardless of need. The term "bear arms" does not equate to "carry arms"... once again this was discussed in detail in the SCOTUS decisions in both Heller and McDonald. We find that need is often disregarded when the licensing officer is satisfied with the level of experience or training of the applicant. Most people merely apply and then complain if denied unrestricted carry.

Regarding expiration, Westchester, Suffolk, Nassau and NYC have codified renewal requirements into state law. No other county has done this to date. Putnam and Rockland may not require renewal under state law. Only 3 of 62 counties currently require renewal. There has been a Democrat effort to institute a renewal process statewide. Assembly bill A00380 was referred to codes over a year ago. It was sent to the rules committee in June 2011. They found numerous problems and sent it back to codes. It has little support even in the dem controlled assembly. I'm assured it's DOA in the senate.

County ordinances may deny the right to carry in a government building. These ordinances are enforceable.

Any requirement to obtain a safe in order to purchase a handgun has been determined a violation of the second amendment as per both the Heller and McDonald SCOTUS decisions. NY has not been challenged on this. However, NY democrats in the state assembly have tried to enact a law requiring firearms be secured. Assembly bill A00381 has been sitting in the codes committee for over a year. It does not have enough support even from the democrats to move it to the floor. It hasn't even been referred to the rules committee yet. I'm assured it's DOA in the senate.

Although there are no training requirements codified into licensing law outside of Westchester county it merely follows good sense that applicants should be trained. Assembly bill A00761 was introducced, requiring applicants to pass a proficiency exam prior to licensing. It has been referred to the codes committee twice and still sits there. I discussed this with Assemblyman Thomas kirwin last year who advised it doesn't have democrat support.

Send me a PM. let's see if we can't get your restrictions lifted - no charge. There are ways and then... there are "ways." We find it doable with a little extra effort.

 

[BC1]

Nowhere on the site says anything about having to lock up your guns. Maybe a class in reading comprehension would help you.

Oh, that hurts. NOT!

The site states:

Any business selling firearms must post a sign where the firearms are displayed or sold stating in bold print: “The use of a locking device or safety lock is only one aspect of responsible firearm storage. For increased safety firearms should be stored unloaded and locked in a location that is both separate from their ammunition and inaccessible to children and any other unauthorized person."

The site suggests this is required by law. You'll have to pardon me. I guess I'm illiterate despite two masters degrees. Somehow I got those degrees without being able to comprehend what I read. I'd brush up on the law. You'll need more knowledge to argue this point.

 

[6shootercarry]

a gun free zone is a gun free zone. Complaining about one while voluntarily entering the other is disingenuous.

Who says I do so with intent to abide by unconstitutional laws? As if the criminals abide by them... Laughable... GFY...

 

[twogunwilly]

The site states:

Any business selling firearms must post a sign where the firearms are displayed or sold stating in bold print: “The use of a locking device or safety lock is only one aspect of responsible firearm storage. For increased safety firearms should be stored unloaded and locked in a location that is both separate from their ammunition and inaccessible to children and any other unauthorized person."

The site suggests this is required by law.

This is copied from the NRA-ILA it's talking about gun dealers selling guns with locks not people locking their guns.

 

[6shootercarry]

Wrong. You can travel through without a problem. NYC may hassle you but the rest of the state understands interstate transport.

I travel in to visit family, that is my ending destination... That's a firm NO... I'm aware of the law, I have family in the state and a few of them are intimately familiar with the laws... Some of my family were in law enforcement in NY... Others are in the legal profession... Hassle? Is it really worth it? Fight charges and pay $$ for liberty... NYC expects this type of behavior...

What happens if my car breaks down and I have to seek lodging? I guess I have to check my weapon with the local PD? How does that keep me protected? How is that Constitutional? So avoid it.. That's the best advice...
As beautiful as the area is, it's become ugly because of the laws, insane taxes, and insane politics/politicians and the liberals who keep electing them... Yea, I know... Most of the folks in the upstate area are of the like mind and have to deal with the power of the Dark Side in the city... Moved when I was young, would never consider moving back.. Working on the exit plan for MA...

 

[anvil6]

First, should someone move to NYS they can absolutely obtain a CCW permit. There are very few problems for residents and 1.2 million New York residents have them.

Second, the constitution has NEVER allowed the carry of a gun. A federal court decision in September 2011 ruled that denial of a carry permit does not constitute a complete ban on ownership and therefor does not violate the constitution. The ruling cites law as far back as 1887. Our view of the second amendment doesn't matter; only the supreme court definition matters. This was held in the recent landmark supreme court cases of D.C. v Heller and McDonald v. Chicago. FOR THE RECORD... I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS DECISION EITHER. But it is the law.

I don't have any bondage in NYS. I can go where I want unmolested. I can sit in a bar armed and have a beer without breaking the law. I can enter a restaurant, church, hospital, government building, bank or use public transportation without issue. I am not required to notify a LEO that I'm carrying. My permit is good for life and never needs renewal. I can keep my NYS CCW permit even after I move out of state.

Every state is one election away from eliminating the right to carry as federal law presently allows this. Every "shall issue" state has a provision for denying access to a firearm to those convicted of a crime or with a psychiatric issue. If you search the history in "gun friendly" states like PA you'll find cases of permit revocation based n nothing more than gossip, rumor or opinion of a sheriff.

BC1, we agree on many points -- mainly on how dangerous SCOTUS is/could become. WE could argue that "Keep" in the Constitution = "Possess" and that "Bear" in the Constitution = "Carry" indeed, THREE (or is that four now?) STATES now have what they call "Constitutional Carry", which embodies that concept.

I don't think there's a single perfect state when it comes to firearm laws (aka the chains of bondage). Some of us wouldn't miss the ability to legally own a home defense shotgun with a magazine capacity of more than five rounds; or a center fire pistol with a magazine capacity greater than 10 rounds; or a Colt AR-15 clone with the new 60 and 100-round magazines. But some of us would.

We certainly should NOT become complacent, but no state that has allowed it's citizens to carry concealed weapons has revoked that law -- YET.

Elections do, indeed, have consequences that range far beyond just replacing the bum or extending the good guy for another term. It's the APPOINTEES-FOR-LIFE chosen by those we elect to office that will shape our policies and laws for years - possibly decades - after the person we elected has left office. Those policies and precedents can be EXTREMELY difficult to change. VOTE WISELY!

 

[6shootercarry]

BC1, we agree on many points -- mainly on how dangerous SCOTUS is/could become. WE could argue that "Keep" in the Constitution = "Possess" and that "Bear" in the Constitution = "Carry" indeed, THREE (or is that four now?) STATES now have what they call "Constitutional Carry", which embodies that concept.

I don't think there's a single perfect state when it comes to firearm laws (aka the chains of bondage). Some of us wouldn't miss the ability to legally own a home defense shotgun with a magazine capacity of more than five rounds; or a center fire pistol with a magazine capacity greater than 10 rounds; or a Colt AR-15 clone with the new 60 and 100-round magazines. But some of us would.

We certainly should NOT become complacent, but no state that has allowed it's citizens to carry concealed weapons has revoked that law -- YET.

Elections do, indeed, have consequences that range far beyond just replacing the bum or extending the good guy for another term. It's the APPOINTEES-FOR-LIFE chosen by those we elect to office that will shape our policies and laws for years - possibly decades - after the person we elected has left office. Those policies and precedents can be EXTREMELY difficult to change. VOTE WISELY!

That is the new battlefront... Obama and the rest of the leftist loons know that the way to undermine and undo the Constitution is via the courts... Stack the benches with liberal bias and progressive (toward communism) thinkers and all bets are off... If the current state of the economy and growing discontent with the government in power were the fuel, Any attempt to dispose of the 2nd Amendment could well be the ignition source... I for one will not comply... ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!!!

‘‘War clouds were gathering rapidly. The sending of more than 3,000 British army regulars under Maj. Gen. Thomas Gage to Boston further exacerbated the imperial rift. When a column of these troops under Lt. Col. Francis Smith moved into the countryside to collect arms and munitions gathered by the patriot militia, hostilities erupted at Lexington and Concord on Apr. 19, 1775.’’

 

[anvil6]

To the knowledgeable folks on this forum: nogods? BC1?

How does a person not in possession of a NY or NYC permit LEGALLY proceed to AVOID arrest when:

Flying with declared firearms and ammo in checked baggage and the flight is either diverted to a NY or NYC airport and the traveler, in spite of being booked on a continuing flight now can not continue - due to weather and/or airline scheduling issues - can not get a flight out of the NY or NYC airport until late the following day. The checked bag with the declared firearm is making laps around the baggage carousel.

What to do?

Relax, this isn't happening to ME right now and isn't likely to, in view of my aversion to commercial flight. I do think an answer to this problem might prevent unnecessary hassles for some folks, if someone well-versed in NY/NYC laws would care to comment.

Thanks.

Gary

 

[6shootercarry]

To the knowledgeable folks on this forum: nogods? BC1?

How does a person not in possession of a NY or NYC permit LEGALLY proceed to AVOID arrest when:

Flying with declared firearms and ammo in checked baggage and the flight is either diverted to a NY or NYC airport and the traveler, in spite of being booked on a continuing flight now can not continue - due to weather and/or airline scheduling issues - can not get a flight out of the NY or NYC airport until late the following day. The checked bag with the declared firearm is making laps around the baggage carousel.

What to do?

Relax, this isn't happening to ME right now and isn't likely to, in view of my aversion to commercial flight. I do think an answer to this problem might prevent unnecessary hassles for some folks, if someone well-versed in NY/NYC laws would care to comment.

Thanks.

Gary

There was a thread on this site that addressed this issue... Happened for real to one of the members, I recall it was a real problem... Laws that protect and infringe all at the same time?

 

[6shootercarry]

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/fire...dment-issues/17484-my-horrendous-trip-ny.html

Another victim of law...

 

[BC1]

You're singling out NYS for the same issue that plagues everyone in every state. If I enter any state that doesn't recognize my reciprocity and I don't have a non-res permit I'm getting arrested. I woulde be required to do exactly the same thing that the people busted in NYC have to do. That is to claim protection under federal law allowing the possession while traveling from/to anywhere legal. Same if I'm busted in TX, SC, UT, CO, etc.

 

[nogods]

To the knowledgeable folks on this forum: nogods? BC1?

How does a person not in possession of a NY or NYC permit LEGALLY proceed to AVOID arrest when:

Flying with declared firearms and ammo in checked baggage and the flight is either diverted to a NY or NYC airport and the traveler, in spite of being booked on a continuing flight now can not continue - due to weather and/or airline scheduling issues - can not get a flight out of the NY or NYC airport until late the following day. The checked bag with the declared firearm is making laps around the baggage carousel.

What to do?

Relax, this isn't happening to ME right now and isn't likely to, in view of my aversion to commercial flight. I do think an answer to this problem might prevent unnecessary hassles for some folks, if someone well-versed in NY/NYC laws would care to comment.

Thanks.

Gary

We work to change the law at the federal level. We don't rely on bogus claims of scope of the 2nd amendment. We make the point with our elected officials that federal laws allowing us to travel armed need to be enacted precisely because the 2nd amendment, as interpreted to date, doesn't protect us from localized laws that substantially interfere with commerce.

Each of us can also work to change our local laws to recognize reciprocity. But that only solves the problem in the jurisdictions that adopt such laws, and still leaves us all subject all the nuances of 51 different jurisdictions.

 

[6shootercarry]

The current system works against liberty and is being used to further another agenda... All this is fine and dandy until 5 to 4 in favor becomes 5 to 4 against.. So in essence the words written on the paper mean whatever the 5 judges say they mean? What power to have... What happens "if" that occurs? What are the plans? Unload, clean, lock, and hand 'em over?

That's the question to be answered... Dig deep and answer it...

 

[6shootercarry]

You're singling out NYS for the same issue that plagues everyone in every state. If I enter any state that doesn't recognize my reciprocity and I don't have a non-res permit I'm getting arrested. I woulde be required to do exactly the same thing that the people busted in NYC have to do. That is to claim protection under federal law allowing the possession while traveling from/to anywhere legal. Same if I'm busted in TX, SC, UT, CO, etc.

I single it out because IF they afforded the non NY resident citizens of The United States of America, the opportunity to apply for non-resident or out of state carry permits it would be the responsibility of the gun owner to make sure he is in compliance. At least it affords the frequent traveler or visitor the ability to exercise that GOD given right and avoid needless persecution and possible financial hardship... NY is infamous for emptying the pockets of citizens and creating an environment that is legally precarious for even the most law conscious individuals.. The NY Yellow Pages section for lawyers could stop a 9mm... Oh wait, I guess I can't test that theory... Sigh...