Intent to????

[drewoufan]

I was just looking for a general concensus on the matter not start a war of posts. All of your posts have been a tremendous help with my question. I now know what my goal is which is what I believed in the fort place. I hope I never have to use my weapon. In a perfect world that may ring true for us all. As I said, what was said somewhat reinforced my train of thought and maybe fixed my for lack of better words problem. I beloved Outlaw said it best. Thanks to all who posted. Be aware and stay safe.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Your original post was fine except the permanent part. How do you permanently stop a threat that is lying on the ground incapacitated but not dead?

My motto, shoot to save life.

Where in my post did I say anything about a threat that is lying on the ground incapacitated but not dead ?

All this "shoot to stop" lingo is the left over from the decades of liberals teaching us that the dirt bag trying to kill you was just a misunderstood misfit who is a result of our failure as a society to do better in sharing the wealth so such a person would not have to resort to robbing, raping and killing to feel equal in our society. Hench he should only be stopped so that he may be rehabilitated to be released back into society as a productive member. . . . . . how's that been working for us ??????????

Fortunately society in the last decade has begun to see the error of it's ways.

The use of deadly force is authorized in our society to counter the threat of imminent death or great bodily harm. My goal will be to STOP the threat quickly and permanently.

Did you see the question mark in my post? Question marks signify a question, not a statement. You claim to permanently stop threats, I was asking you, how do you permanently stop a threat that is incapacitated but not dead? If they recover, they will be back, therefore that is not permanent.

 

[SGB]

Did you see the question mark in my post? Question marks signify a question, not a statement. You claim to permanently stop threats, I was asking you, how do you permanently stop a threat that is incapacitated but not dead? If they recover, they will be back, therefore that is not permanent.

Where in my post did I say anything about a threat that is lying on the ground incapacitated but not dead ?

Why would you firefighterchen answer my question with a question? Evasion?

To Answer your question all you need do is read my previous posts regarding Proper bullet placement.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Did you see the question mark in my post? Question marks signify a question, not a statement. You claim to permanently stop threats, I was asking you, how do you permanently stop a threat that is incapacitated but not dead? If they recover, they will be back, therefore that is not permanent.

Where in my post did I say anything about a threat that is lying on the ground incapacitated but not dead ?

Why do you answer a question with a question? Evasion.

To Answer your question all you need do is read my previous posts regarding Proper bullet placement.

Do you know what a question is?

The only thing i quoted from you was the word permanent. Then i asked a question. My first post to you was a question. Answer it.

Q: how do you permanently stop a threat that is incapacitated (let's say you hit the right lung, he is down, but breathing, and squirming on the ground)?

The next thing you would do is answer that question.

Instead you claim my question to you was a statement about your post. My second post to you was trying to show you that I posted a question, not a statement, which isn't evasion.

Since I think you still won't understand that, let's try this. Where in your post did you say anything about a person lying on the ground? You didn't, I never said you did. Now can you answer my question?

The answer you gave me, in the last post about the CNS. First it's not an instant death, tell that to all the people paralyzed from a CNS injury, but still alive. Second, if they aren't paralyzed or dead, they are not permanently taken care of, therefore for you to permanently stop them you would walk up to them and shoot them in the CNS?

 

[SGB]

to answer your question all you need do is read my previous posts regarding proper bullet placement.

i teach people to hit what they shoot at, such as in a self defense situation the heart/lungs and central nervous system, all known to result in rapid incapacitation and death.

the answer you gave me, in the last post about the cns. First it's not an instant death, tell that to all the people paralyzed from a cns injury, but still alive. Second, if they aren't paralyzed or dead, they are not permanently taken care of, therefore for you to permanently stop then you would walk up to them and shoot them in the cns?

the single fastest way to terminate an assailants attack is with a hit to the central nervous system, which is 100% fatal 100% of the time. The next best thing is perforating the the heart, lungs and liver causing massive tissue damage resulting in blood loss resulting in loss of blood pressure and most probably death !!!!!!

where in your post did you say anything about a person lying on the ground? You didn't

thank you ..........!!!

 

[Firefighterchen]

I just re read the posts...the irony made me laugh.

1. I asked you a question.
2. You answered with a question. (evading)
3. I asked if you knew my original post was a question, and that you should answer it. (evading your unimportant question about my first question)
4. You claim I'm evading a question using a question.
5. I answer your "evading" question, but you still have yet to answer my very first question.

Who started evading first?

 

[SGB]

I just re read the posts...the irony made me laugh.

1. I asked you a question.
2. You answered with a question. (evading)
3. I asked if you knew my original post was a question, and that you should answer it. (evading your unimportant question about my first question)
4. You claim I'm evading a question using a question.
5. I answer your "evading" question, but you still have yet to answer my very first question.

Who started evading first?

You asked an insulting questing based on what? Why?

You refused to even initially answer my question which went to the irrelevance of your question in regards to my original post. And now you're just making up bs trying to cover up the fact it was a dumbazz question.

 

[Firefighterchen]

to answer your question all you need do is read my previous posts regarding proper bullet placement.

i teach people to hit what they shoot at, such as in a self defense situation the heart/lungs and central nervous system, all known to result in rapid incapacitation and death.

the answer you gave me, in the last post about the cns. First it's not an instant death, tell that to all the people paralyzed from a cns injury, but still alive. Second, if they aren't paralyzed or dead, they are not permanently taken care of, therefore for you to permanently stop then you would walk up to them and shoot them in the cns?

the single fastest way to terminate an assailants attack is with a hit to the central nervous system, which is 100% fatal 100% of the time. The next best thing is perforating the the heart, lungs and liver causing massive tissue damage resulting in blood loss resulting in loss of blood pressure and most probably death !!!!!!

where in your post did you say anything about a person lying on the ground? You didn't

thank you ..........!!!

You welcome? You forgot to quote my whole context, why are you hiding?

Your knowledge of the human body is off. Instant death only occurs with a heart, brain, mid brain, or cervical vertebrae hit, and that isn't a guaranteed 100% . Look up officer Coates of the Clackamas police department. Shot through the brain and survived, making a miraculous recovery. Anything in the thoracic vertebra will not cause instant death, which is part of the CNS.

By your own words, you permanently stop threats. So, if a threat is incapacitated, but not permanently, you will go make him permanently paralyzed or dead?

 

[Firefighterchen]

I just re read the posts...the irony made me laugh.

1. I asked you a question.
2. You answered with a question. (evading)
3. I asked if you knew my original post was a question, and that you should answer it. (evading your unimportant question about my first question)
4. You claim I'm evading a question using a question.
5. I answer your "evading" question, but you still have yet to answer my very first question.

Who started evading first?

You asked an insulting questing based on what? Why?

You refused to even initially answer my question which went to the irrelevance of your question in regards to my original post. And now you're just making up bs trying to cover up the fact it was a dumbazz question.

Asking you how you would permanently stop someone who was incapacitated but not dead was insulting to you? it was based on your statement that you permanently stop threats.

 

[SGB]

You welcome? You forgot to quote my whole context, why are you hiding?

Your knowledge of the human body is off. Instant death only occurs with a heart, brain, mid brain, or cervical vertebrae hit, and that isn't a guaranteed 100% . Look up officer Coates of the Clackamas police department. Shot through the brain and survived, making a miraculous recovery. Anything in the thoracic vertebra will not cause instant death, which is part of the CNS.

By your own words, you permanently stop threats. So, if a threat is incapacitated, but not permanently, you will go make him permanently paralyzed or dead?

When dealing with self defense shootings the CNS is the brain stem and the cervical vertebrae, they control the major organs and muscles a bullet to the brain stem or cervical vertebrae and it's lights out. If you had any professional self defense firearms training you would know this.

For the rest you're being an argumentative butthole, I suspect for no other purpose than to be an butthole. My Quote in full ..... not quite what you would mislead other to believe it to be.

All this "shoot to stop" lingo is the left over from the decades of liberals teaching us that the dirt bag trying to kill you was just a misunderstood misfit who is a result of our failure as a society to do better in sharing the wealth so such a person would not have to resort to robbing, raping and killing to feel equal in our society. Hench he should only be stopped so that he may be rehabilitated to be released back into society as a productive member. . . . . . how's that been working for us ??????????

Fortunately society in the last decade has begun to see the error of it's ways.

The use of deadly force is authorized in our society to counter the threat of imminent death or great bodily harm. My goal will be to STOP the threat quickly and permanently.

If I'm engaged in a fight for my life or the life of one of my loved ones I will to the best of my ability do all that is in my power to stop the threat to my life or the life of my loved one with a quick and lethal blow. If you have a problem with that I really don't care.

 

[Firefighterchen]

You welcome? You forgot to quote my whole context, why are you hiding?

Your knowledge of the human body is off. Instant death only occurs with a heart, brain, mid brain, or cervical vertebrae hit, and that isn't a guaranteed 100% . Look up officer Coates of the Clackamas police department. Shot through the brain and survived, making a miraculous recovery. Anything in the thoracic vertebra will not cause instant death, which is part of the CNS.

By your own words, you permanently stop threats. So, if a threat is incapacitated, but not permanently, you will go make him permanently paralyzed or dead?

You're being an argumentative azzhole, I suspect for no other purpose than to be an azzhole. My Quote in full ..... not quite what you would mislead other to believe it to be.

I am stating what I have learned and experienced when it comes to CNS injuries during my career as a paramedic. If you can't handle being corrected or questioned, I feel sorry for you.

All this "shoot to stop" lingo is the left over from the decades of liberals teaching us that the dirt bag trying to kill you was just a misunderstood misfit who is a result of our failure as a society to do better in sharing the wealth so such a person would not have to resort to robbing, raping and killing to feel equal in our society. Hench he should only be stopped so that he may be rehabilitated to be released back into society as a productive member. . . . . . how's that been working for us ??????????

Fortunately society in the last decade has begun to see the error of it's ways.

The use of deadly force is authorized in our society to counter the threat of imminent death or great bodily harm. My goal will be to STOP the threat quickly and permanently.

If I'm engaged in a fight for my life or the life of one of my loved ones I will to the best of my ability do all that is in my power to stop the threat to my life with a quick and lethal blow. If you have a problem with that I really don't care.

I have no problem with that...i have a problem with the bg that did not recieve a lethal blow (ie: the bad guy in the pharmacy), and the good guy going back to make the bad guy "permanently" dead and going to jail for murder (ie: the pharmacist)

 

[SGB]

I am stating what I have learned and experienced when it comes to CNS injuries during my career as a paramedic. If you can't handle being corrected or questioned, I feel sorry for you.

Maybe you should wait on the pity party.

When dealing with self defense shootings the CNS (as it is referred to) is the brain stem and the cervical vertebrae, they control (as I'm sure you're aware) the major organs and muscles and a bullet shattering the brain stem or cervical vertebrae and it's lights out. If you had any professional self defense firearms training you would already know this.

I have no problem with that...i have a problem with the bg that did not recieve a lethal blow (ie: the bad guy in the pharmacy), and the good guy going back to make the bad guy "permanently" dead and going to jail for murder (ie: the pharmacist)

I'm not a pharmacist, I did not post anything in relation to the shooting done by the pharmacist and have no earthly idea why you continue to associate me with that dumb azz pharmacist.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I am stating what I have learned and experienced when it comes to CNS injuries during my career as a paramedic. If you can't handle being corrected or questioned, I feel sorry for you.

Maybe you should wait on the pity party.

When dealing with self defense shootings the CNS (as it is referred to) is the brain stem and the cervical vertebrae, they control (as I'm sure you're aware) the major organs and muscles and a bullet shattering the brain stem or cervical vertebrae and it's lights out. If you had any professional self defense firearms training you would already know this.

It's been a while since I have gotten to talk anatomy, I'm looking forward to this.

The brain stem controls our breathing centers (reacts to CO2 in our system, and will adjust our respiratory rate, depth, and rhythm to keep us at normal levels). C3-C5 controls our diaphram. Knock those out, its instant off switch (without medical attention) because it causes paralysis and hypoxia (the heart is autonomic, has it's own electrical system, and the only reason your heart will stop after a CNS injury is becuase it lacks the oxygen to keep going, not becuase there is a power cord to your heart). Anything else below that, will not be fatal 100% of the time.

There is a flaw in your self defense training if your defintion of CNS is only the midbrain and CV. Let me explain. If your definition is true, then COM is too inferior to be considered CNS shots. Does your professional self defense training aim for COM or head/neck? Per your definiton of CNS, you are 5-12 inches inferior of where you would need to be aiming for "instant incapacitation" if you train to aim COM.

All my training was focused on COM, which includes my definition of the CNS (the length of the spinal cord; which is not only correct in SD but also medically), and the organs of the thoracic and abdominal cavities. We train to incapacitate the threat as quickly as possible. Once the threat is incapacitated (permanenty or not), we move to safety.

How about looking at statistics of shootings. 80% of shootings victims survive. They did not recieve permanent incapacitation, but the threat was over. So, with that knowledge, do you see where navy is coming from relating it to the pharmacist? How the word "permanent" is wrong. The bg in the pharmacy may not have recieved a fatal shot/permanent incapacitation, not until the pharmacist went back to "permanently" incapacitate the bg by kiling him.

How can you state you will permanently stop a threat, when 80% of the time you woud have go back and make it permanent?

 

[Firefighterchen]

I'm not a pharmacist, I did not post anything in relation to the shooting done by the pharmacist and have no earthly idea why you continue to associate me with that dumb azz pharmacist.

Navy related the pharmacist to you, because both of you have the "permanent" mindset. I have to agree with Navy on comparing your mindset with the pharmacists, and so I will keep using that example. Once the threat is incapacitated, permanent or not, it's time to move to safety.

 

[Deserteagle]

I think you guys are talking about 2 different scenarios here. SGB seems to be saying he will aim for a fatal hit when he shoots his gun in self defense. During an attack and justified self defense scenario, there is nothing wrong with aiming for a lethal hit, or head shot for example. His use of the word "permanent" is being interpreted as a different scenario; one in which the fatal hit is fired after an attack, and that qualifies as murder, just like the pharmacist's actions.

What's causing the confusion is when stopping the threat becomes a permanent stop. Its the difference between shooting a person in the head during a robbery versus after a robbery.

What should be debated here is whether or not it is good to automatically aim for lethal spots during an attack. If in danger, SGB is set on shooting the attacker in a spot that will kill them, aka stop the threat permanently. Others like myself and Chen would only shoot until the attacker is no longer a threat, regardless of how much time that gives us. If they are wounded and on the ground, then we have time to run away and we play it safer with the law.

Now we need to work on debating ideas rather than people. SGB- I would suggest arguing why you would go for a lethal shot and leave the name calling out of it.

 

[Deanimator]

You always shoot to STOP the threat. The most reliable points of aim for doing that often result in death. Sucks to be a violent felon.

Shooting to wound an assailant, never mind saying that's what you meant to do is foolish. You should ONLY be shooting people if they present an immediate and credible threat to life and limb. Shooting specifically to wound, rather than immediately stop the attack is prima facia evidence that you didn't feel that you were in immediate fear of life and limb.

You don't shoot to kill, nor do you say that's what you were doing. You shoot to STOP. If that kills your assailant, then maybe he should have worked harder on his victim selection skills. Once he's incapacitated, you have no further justification for application of deadly force. ALL that matters is that your assailant is stopped and no longer a threat to you. Whether he dies or not is immaterial to that requirement.

 

[localgirl]

Firearms or not, any time you are the victim or about to be placed in the role of victim, your only goal is to STOP this person from HURTING you. Frankly, you shouldn't even have the time or luxury to stop and think about where and when to shoot. If you have that much time, remove yourself with your feet. If you don't have time, you have no choice but to remove your attacker with your fists, your feet, or your gun.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Firearms or not, any time you are the victim or about to be placed in the role of victim, your only goal is to STOP this person from HURTING you. Frankly, you shouldn't even have the time or luxury to stop and think about where and when to shoot. If you have that much time, remove yourself with your feet. If you don't have time, you have no choice but to remove your attacker with your fists, your feet, or your gun.

Dont forget your elbows and knees Do some serious fighting with those as well...especially if they are within arms length.

 

[localgirl]

Dont forget your elbows and knees Do some serious fighting with those as well...especially if they are within arms length.

Elbows are my favorite

 

[NavyLCDR]

When dealing with self defense shootings the CNS is the brain stem and the cervical vertebrae, they control the major organs and muscles a bullet to the brain stem or cervical vertebrae and it's lights out. If you had any professional self defense firearms training you would know this.

Respectfully, "the CNS is the brain stem and the cervical vertebrae, they control the major organs and muscles a bullet to the brain stem or cervical vertebrae" is biology, not professional self defense training. Professional self defense training for the average Joe Citizen using a gun teaches to shoot center mass, belt line up, neck down, inside the torso. Greatest chance of actually hitting the target and incapacitating the criminal. Any self defense training for Joe Citizen using a gun that teaches head shots first is not professional training for Joe Citizen....it is training for professional snipers.

Professional self defense training for Joe Citizen also does not teach that the easiest way to stop a criminal attack is to shoot with intent to kill the criminal. It teaches the most effective way to hit the criminal that the defender is shooting at.