Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

[stonewallbrigade]

You know I been pulled over several times with and with out a weapon and its been my experience that in Michigan when your plate is ran they know you have one and telling them eases the situation a lot and got me out of a few tickets as long as your not breaking the law it doesn't matter what the leo who pulling you over thinks they have boundaries too and since a female officers lost her job over a bad decision with a cpl holder who wasn't carrying they go along way to be friendly.

 

[billwot]

... in Michigan when your plate is ran they know you have one....

NC has the same arrangement. If you hold a CCW, there is a notation in your vehicle registration files.

And if you are carrying, you are required to present your permit, and advise the LEO that you are carrying.

Personally, I have no problem with that. Even when I get checked at a "license check" (they haven't accessed my records), I hand them my licensce along with my CCW permit.

bill

 

[Daugherty16]

I know there are a lot of opinions on this. Some states mandate your advising the LEO - opinions there have been mooted. But for the rest of the states, i think i personally would advise the LEO. Their jobs are hard enough, and if i can put them a little at ease, letting them know i am legally armed seems a courtesy that - were the situation reversed - i would appreciate.

Would you tell anyone else? No. That is why it's called concealed carry. But the ordinary citizen doesn't pull you over for speeding, isn't charged with apprehending criminals, isn't shot at by armed felons. They wonder every time they stop someone if this is when they get shot. So a little courtesy and up front notice that you are a law abiding citiizen who sympathises with the LEO's difficult job, would, seems to me, go a long way toward making the traffic stop easier on both of you. I can only imagine how really, really difficult it would become and QUICKLY - if they saw the grip peeking out from under your shirt and you hadn't told them first.

just MHO.

 

[Deputy Dave]

This thread is a bit lengthy at 13 pages and growing, so I will probably be repeating some of the previous replies. But, here's my opinion, nonetheless. I have been in law enforcement for 17 years, and have been instructing CCW classes since 2003, so let me touch on a couple of points.

The CCW laws of Missouri do not require you to announce that you are carrying, only that you have your CCW permit on your person anytime you are carrying a weapon.

Your status as a CCW permit holder is recorded with Missouri Uniform Law Enforcement System (MULES), and these records are on file with the Department of Revenue (DOR), same as your driving status. When an officer runs your vehicle registration / license plate through MULES, the only information he / she receives is who the vehicle is registered to, the year and make of the vehicle, whether or not the registration is current, and any wants or warrants there may be related to that vehicle.

The best explanation for why your status as a CCW permit holder does not show up when your vehicle tag is run is you may not be the driver of that vehicle at the time of the stop. Somebody else may be driving your car, or you may be riding in another person's car.

Your status as a CCW permit holder will show up on your driving record, which the officer does not get until he / she runs your personal information that is recorded on your license, or given by word of mouth should you not have your license with you. (But, you do, right?) And the officer does not get that information until up close, personal contact has been made with you.

Now then, I like surprizes as much as anybody, just generally not when I'm working, and most certainly not when I have made a traffic stop in the dark of the night in the middle of nowhere. You will find most law enforcement officers are like that. So, instead of the officer having to discover you are CCW certified, and may be carrying a weapon after he has run your information, why not just let him know up front?

My advice and instruction to my students and others is simple. Keep both hands on the steering wheel, and a smile on your face. (I know the smile part may be tough to pull off. Heck, you just got pulled over). As soon as the officer has announced the reason for the stop, and asked for your driver's license, just politely tell him, "Sir / Ma'am, I mean no offense or harm, but I have a CCW permit and am carrying a weapon. How do you wish to proceed"?

The conversation does not have to be exactly as quoted, but you get the idea. Allowing the officer to be in control enforces the fact you are not a danger or threat to their safety. How the officer proceeds will depend on the individual officer, the location of the stop, the circumstances, etc. Were you stopped for a burned out brake light? Or does your car match the description given of one involved in a serious crime?

And, if you are a passenger, the same advice stands. Most likely the officer will ask you for your name and possibly identification. Keep your hands in sight, that smile on your face, and let him know whether or not you are carrying at the time. Again, it's simply a matter of allowing the officer to control the situation and prevent any surprizes.

If you remain calm and pleasant, most likely the officer will do the same. Remember, you have accepted a great responsibility when you opted to carry a concealed weapon, so act responsibly. And, should you ever get pulled over, (good people get pulled over every day), hopefully you and the officer involved will part company with just a bit more respect for each other.

I hope I was helpful and didn't muddy things up any. Sorry to be so long, and thanks for reading.

 

[GunShizzel]

Question: should the wallet be already out of your pocket and on the dash, just in case, since reaching for it could be viewed as somewhat sketchy? I'm thinking sun-visor mounted registration for the same purpose rather than going into the glove box.

 

[Deputy Dave]

"Question: should the wallet be already out of your pocket and on the dash, just in case, since reaching for it could be viewed as somewhat sketchy? I'm thinking sun-visor mounted registration for the same purpose rather than going into the glove box."

That question always comes up for discussion in my classes and unfortunately, there are no perfect answers. The sun-visor mount is a great idea, if you are one of those who always, without fail, can remember to retrieve your CCW permit from the visor before you get out of your vehicle. (I'm not one of those people). You don't want to be in violation of the law by carrying your concealed weapon around inside the store, while your CCW permit waits for you in the car. Again, if properly concealed, who's going to know? But still, it's a violation.

And please, don't be pulling out your wallet as you are being stopped, or while the officer is approaching your vehicle. From behind, this action can be seen as you attempting to hide something, or possibly accessing a weapon. You know what you are actually doing, but the officer doesn't.

Once the officer has made personal contact with you, and you have informed him of your CCW status and the location of your weapon, reaching for your wallet will be seen as following the officer's instructions, and not as a threat.

Again, this is just my opinion, as a CCW instructor and a law enforcement officer. If anybody has a better solution, I'll be happy to read it and pass it on to my students. Thanks.

 

[Daugherty16]

Good JuJu

Dave, really good post(s). I've always wanted to hear from LEOs on this topic, because of course the rest of us civilians are pretty well divided into the Hell No and the Always Yes camps. The no's believe their rights protect them, and it's hard to disagree. The yes's believe the LEOs will respond better if they're up front, and it's hard to disagree. I've heard many stories about how the notification turned into a conversation, and led to no ticket at all. Have you ever been so inclined?

If i even needed more reason to be in the yes camp, that would be it. But as i said, LEO's put their lives on the line every day and with every traffic stop, they know it could be end if they've had the bad luck to pull over that one nutjob. I appreciate what they do, what you do, and personally i agree with you, that giving the word up front and being polite about it is the right way to go regardless of whether it is required under the law.

Rick

 

[maybejim]

The no's believe their rights protect them

I think that mis characterizes the no's. I believe the officer and I are both safer if he keeps his hands off my gun. There are far too many police officers that are not widely familiar with the variety of guns that are out there. My gun is perfectly safe where ever I might be carrying it. It may not be if someone unfamiliar (or careless) attempts to unload it.

The fear expressed about the guns that a CCW holder might have is hysteria born of ignorance. It's not the CCW's gun that is a danger. It is the gang banger, the criminal, who can't legally touch a gun much less carry one concealed that is the danger.

The Los Angeles Police force (which is at the top for sure anti-gun) has an average time on the job (I last heard) of less than 5 years. These are inexperienced people who come from an institutional anti-gun perspective. I would never notify if stopped unless I was going to be taken out of my vehicle (something highly unlikely).

On the other hand in gun friendly areas, there have been hints that the Police Officer is more likely to be lenient on a CCW holder. Circumstances vary.

 

[utimmer43]

If anybody has a better solution, I'll be happy to read it and pass it on to my students. Thanks.

I can't stand my wallet in my back pocket, so it only goes there while I'm inside a store or some such place. While in the car, it rides in the cup holder on the center console. My registration, insurance card, permits, and of course license are all in a separate removable sleeve that slides into a slot in the end of the bi-fold. Whenever I am pulled over, I have that sleeve with all those things in my hand before my car is even stopped.

 

[billwot]

I think that mis characterizes the no's. I believe the officer and I are both safer if he keeps his hands off my gun. There are far too many police officers that are not widely familiar with the variety of guns that are out there. My gun is perfectly safe where ever I might be carrying it. It may not be if someone unfamiliar (or careless) attempts to unload it.

Why would a LEO ask/order you to hand over your gun? I have never heard of this happening.

We have a lot of "license checks' here in NC. Both the County Deputies and the State Troopers do them, frequently in rural areas (like where i live). I have been stopped at license checks at least a half dozen times and always hand the officer my permit and license together. If I have a gun, I advise them as I hand them teh licensee/permit. I have never even been asked where the gun was, let alone been asked to produce it.

bill

 

[maybejim]

Why would a LEO ask/order you to hand over your gun? I have never heard of this happening.

We have a lot of "license checks' here in NC. Both the County Deputies and the State Troopers do them, frequently in rural areas (like where i live). I have been stopped at license checks at least a half dozen times and always hand the officer my permit and license together. If I have a gun, I advise them as I hand them teh licensee/permit. I have never even been asked where the gun was, let alone been asked to produce it.

bill

I don't know why the LEO would ask for the gun either but we've seen a number of stories here (and elsewhere) where they do that exact thing. They seem to think it's for the LEO safety which is nothing more than stupidity. Only law abiding reasonable people are going to even tell the cop they have a legal gun and it's not likely they are going to tell about an illegal gun.

 

[utimmer43]

I don't know why the LEO would ask for the gun either but we've seen a number of stories here (and elsewhere) where they do that exact thing. They seem to think it's for the LEO safety which is nothing more than stupidity. Only law abiding reasonable people are going to even tell the cop they have a legal gun and it's not likely they are going to tell about an illegal gun.

To further that point, it is highly unlikely that a law abiding person who would inform the officer about his firearm, would later intend to use it on the officer. At which point, the firearm is irrelevant to the situation in the first place, and I would argue, need not be mentioned.

(And the cycle continues...)

 

[maybejim]

To further that point, it is highly unlikely that a law abiding person who would inform the officer about his firearm, would later intend to use it on the officer. At which point, the firearm is irrelevant to the situation in the first place, and I would argue, need not be mentioned.

(And the cycle continues...)

;-)

 

[Wreckmaster]

I have not been stopped here in my home state of Missouri, but I would inform an officer of the fact I was carrying. I am in the alert system as a CCW holder so he already knows when he approaches my vehicle. Try to make the officer as comfortable as possible.

 

[billwot]

To further that point, it is highly unlikely that a law abiding person who would inform the officer about his firearm, would later intend to use it on the officer. At which point, the firearm is irrelevant to the situation in the first place, and I would argue, need not be mentioned.

(And the cycle continues...)

Well, regardless of one's personal philosophy on this subject, it is NOT irrelevant here in NC. If you are a permit hoilder. its noted in both your DL database, and registration (license plate) database. And permit holders are required by law to inform any LEO that they are armed anytime they are stopped, or asked for identification.

As I have stated, my personal policy is to show my permit, even if I'm not carrying.

But to each his own.

bill

 

[matelpt]

Texas requires you to show the permit with the drivers license ONLY IF you are carrying. Common courtesy is to show it with DL, carrying or not - CHL's here are tagged to DL's so they will find out soon enough anyway. I've never had a problem (state or local), most just tell me to leave it where it is and do their check; all have been professional.

 

[torontogunguy]

Was just reading some articles on concealed carry and came across an article by Ayoob that suggests ALWAYS notify but in the correct manner. As I recall it was something like hand the D/L over with the CWP and say something to the effect that "Officer I am carrying at this time - how would you like to handle this?" If he suggests handing over the gun or putting it on the seat beside you while you are doing business it was suggested that you ask the office if you can step out of the car and have him remove the gun.

I don't know... sounds complicated to me.

 

[utimmer43]

Well, regardless of one's personal philosophy on this subject, it is NOT irrelevant here in NC. If you are a permit holder. its noted in both your DL database, and registration (license plate) database. And permit holders are required by law to inform any LEO that they are armed anytime they are stopped, or asked for identification.

Very well, I didn't realize that I had to specify that any reason or rational that I give against notification is specific to states that do not require notification. It should go without saying that if you are in a state that requires it, then I would suggest you do so.

 

[LoveMontana]

Very well, I didn't realize that I had to specify that any reason or rational that I give against notification is specific to states that do not require notification. It should go without saying that if you are in a state that requires it, then I would suggest you do so.

Oh yes definitely. New York doesn't require it but I would, out of courtesy, do it.

 

[Daugherty16]

You're right

I think that mis characterizes the no's. I believe the officer and I are both safer if he keeps his hands off my gun. There are far too many police officers that are not widely familiar with the variety of guns that are out there. My gun is perfectly safe where ever I might be carrying it. It may not be if someone unfamiliar (or careless) attempts to unload it.

The fear expressed about the guns that a CCW holder might have is hysteria born of ignorance. It's not the CCW's gun that is a danger. It is the gang banger, the criminal, who can't legally touch a gun much less carry one concealed that is the danger..

Yeah, it can't all be boiled down into one quote. I totally agree with you as well, which was the point i was trying to make. I don't want anybody handling my gun, except after i teach them and under my supervision. But more to the point, we the law-abiding are NOT the problem, and are NOT the ones that the LEOs need to be concerned about. However, due to the wierdness of modern society (mostly on the two coasts plus Chicago and Detroit), the felons carrying illegally are sort of accepted as an unpleasant fact - the kind where if you close your eyes maybe it isn't true - while those of us who choose to be empowered and carry legally are targeted (pun intended) by the people, by the media, by the elected officials, and by the LEO's. Why? Fear. Ignorance. Inculcated beliefs. Blind ignorance. all the things you said.

Once i wrote that my goals in a traffic stop are, in order: not getting shot by the LEO, not getting arrested, not getting hassled, and not getting ticketed. The first 3 are, in my mind, facilitated by notifying up front. I totally understand your feelings and reservations - and share them - but personally, i believe they are outweighed by my goals and my admittedly limited understanding of human nature.