Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

[queball]

Yes, but they *CHOSE* to put themselves in a dangerous situation by becoming a LEO.

And I thank them for it. It is something that most of us wouldn't have the stomach for it. God bless them.

And if I have any encounters with the police, you can be all but assured it is not by my choice. They are stopping me, not the other way around.

Speeding? Your choice... Illegal turn? Failure to fully stop? Your choice... Talking on a cell phone while driving? Your choice (may or may not be illegal where you are, but may cause other issues)... Bad headlight or taillight? Not necessarily your choice, bit it IS your responsibility. The above listed are the only reasons I have ever had to have an LEO encounter that I did not request, and they were all the result of choices I made.

So why should I help someone or show them any extra courtesy if they are about to make my wallet lighter or put me in handcuffs? Makes no sense to me.

First of all, that courtesy just MIGHT let you keep your wallet the same weight it was. To use one of your quotes, "happens all the time". I can back that up, because I personally have had at least 4 experiences of that over the years.
Secondly, if something is done or actions that would precipitate the use of handcuffs, chances are pretty good that it is with sufficient cause.

OK, I'm done trying to justify my feelings... We are each entitled to our own. I just want to say that (personal opinion) there are just as many CCW holders with poor attitudes than there are LEO's. Lets not judge the majority of either by the actions of the minority.
Carry proudly, carry responsibly, act courteously...(live long and prosper, etc.)

 

[rayven]

Your stance is part of the problem in this country, whether you wish the encounter is a moot point, they deserve your respect as any one does.

And I would show respect. But if someone in a position of authority is depriving me of my freedom to keep moving without interference, I will only do what is nominally required by law.

Why exactly should I do more for those in power? I would remain friendly and respectful, but I'm not about to give up my right to privacy just because someone with a badge would like me to. If I have no obligation to do something, then I have the natural right of choice. I choose not to inform, as is my right which has been confirmed by my state law.

I honestly don't understand why someone would have a problem with another private citizen proudly standing up for his/her rights. Especially on a web forum that advocates the rights of those who carry firearms.

 

[rayven]

...snip...

First: no, I would not be OK with a cop passing my fiancee who is stranded on the side of the road. However, if he does, it's perfectly legal. He has no obligation to help / protect. The Supreme Court has already weighed in on this issue. Same goes with the binoculars guy outside my daughter's apartment. Me being OK with something means nothing.

Second: Many cops, I agree, do consider it their duty to "protect and serve". However, at any time, they can abandon that idea and ignore either part. What you apparently didn't understand from my post is that I'm referring to what the law states regarding police duty. Personally, I consider it my duty to help those in need, but I'm not required to do it. Same with the police, regardless of what the individual LEO thinks.

Third and last: LEOs really are on the side of LEOs in almost every situation. I know this from news, internet, and personal experience. A few members of my family were members of the police in Philadelphia, and whenever there was a question of police brutality or legal mistakes by other cops, the "Blue Code of Silence" would spring into effect. Whether or not you believe it, the police almost always back each other up even at the expense of civilians.

And no, I'm not paranoid. I'm a realist. The existence of a police force is a necessary evil. I know how corrupt it can get -- I've seen it myself. So I stand up for my rights. Apparently to you, standing up for my rights in the face of growing corruption in government is paranoia. So be it.

 

[rayven]

And I thank them for it. It is something that most of us wouldn't have the stomach for it. God bless them.


Speeding? Your choice... Illegal turn? Failure to fully stop? Your choice... Talking on a cell phone while driving? Your choice (may or may not be illegal where you are, but may cause other issues)... Bad headlight or taillight? Not necessarily your choice, bit it IS your responsibility. The above listed are the only reasons I have ever had to have an LEO encounter that I did not request, and they were all the result of choices I made.



First of all, that courtesy just MIGHT let you keep your wallet the same weight it was. To use one of your quotes, "happens all the time". I can back that up, because I personally have had at least 4 experiences of that over the years.
Secondly, if something is done or actions that would precipitate the use of handcuffs, chances are pretty good that it is with sufficient cause.

OK, I'm done trying to justify my feelings... We are each entitled to our own. I just want to say that (personal opinion) there are just as many CCW holders with poor attitudes than there are LEO's. Lets not judge the majority of either by the actions of the minority.
Carry proudly, carry responsibly, act courteously...(live long and prosper, etc.)

Sorry. We just have to disagree then. To me, the government exists at the will of the people -- not the other way around. I shouldn't have to prove anything to any government agency, including the police, at any time -- they should ALWAYS carry the burden of proof. If I'm carrying legally, I'm not a threat, and I have every right to deny the police the information that I have a legal firearm until they have evidence against me that I'm breaking a firearm law.

I like my rights and so I stand up and fight for them. But hey, everyone has their own opinions and how they feel they should handle various situations. Good luck to you -- carry proudly.

 

[devildave31]

I do not currently have my CCW, but I intend to someday. In the mean time, these are the questions that I like to ask myself ahead of time. I am going to have to agree with Rayven, for the most part. If I were carrying, and it is not relelvant to the LEO encounter, then why put them on edge. This might piss some people off, but I do not consider LEO's to be some kind of super men. Yes they do a dangerous job, and yes they do deserve respect for that, however LEO's, just like any other demographic are going to be representative of the rest of society. And by that I mean that even in the LEO community, there are smart ones, there are not so smart ones, there are nice ones, and not so nice ones, the list goes on and on. Can you tell right off in an encounter which one you got? Again why bring it up if it's not relevant.

Also here in MO I believe that not only is the CCW linked to Drivers Liscense, but is also a DL endorsement, so If I hand my liscense over end the LEO is worth his salt, then he should be able to make that determination.

I hope this doesn't seem derogitory towards LEO's, I have had few experiences with LEO's, but even fewer where I felt I got dealt with squarely.

 

[rockwerks]

Sorry. We just have to disagree then. To me, the government exists at the will of the people -- not the other way around. I shouldn't have to prove anything to any government agency, including the police, at any time -- they should ALWAYS carry the burden of proof. If I'm carrying legally, I'm not a threat, and I have every right to deny the police the information that I have a legal firearm until they have evidence against me that I'm breaking a firearm law.

I like my rights and so I stand up and fight for them. But hey, everyone has their own opinions and how they feel they should handle various situations. Good luck to you -- carry proudly.

To a cop your attitude could be seen as a threat, good luck you are going to need it

 

[utimmer43]

To a cop your attitude could be seen as a threat, good luck you are going to need it

The only attitude the cop will see is that of silence, or politely answering his questions. How is that threatening?

 

[drt]

Ditto Red Hat. :biggrin:

 

[rockwerks]

The only attitude the cop will see is that of silence, or politely answering his questions. How is that threatening?

That is a major difference from what your original post states.

 

[Daugherty16]

This really is pretty simple

Hear, hear queball!! Having come up in a family of LEO's, I was taught to respect all LEO's. Keep your hands in plain sight, answer all questions "Yes, Sir" and "No, Sir." Even if you choose to disagree - disagree RESPECTFULLY. That being said, if a LEO chooses to disarm me for the duration of our transaction, so be it. HE still has a gun, and I sincerely doubt that someone is going to take him out, then me, in those few minutes. Yes, there are a few jerks working in Law Enforcement - it's inevitable, the law of odds and all that - but even if you don't respect the man wearing it, respect the badge.

+++ to Ironhorse and Queball and Redhat and the others who aren't posturing or playing the macho card


What is in your best interest in a traffic stop? In order - not get shot, not get arrested, not get hassled, not get a ticket. How? It isn't rocket science. Hard to believe so many of you would deliberately set the stage for a potential nasty encounter by insisting on secrecy. You keep your gun secret from the public and the BGs, but not from a LEO in a personal encounter. Period. If you are a legal CCW, your rights are secure. What to do?

#1 - Obey the law. If you must inform, do so.
# 2 Even if you don't legally have to, do it anyway. It is axiomatic if you follow # 3.
#3 Be respectful. LEOs have very tough jobs, but i'm glad they are there doing them. They deal with too many jerkoffs (not to mention criminals) so make the exchange easier for both of you by being pleasant.In other words, let them know you're one of the good guys by telling them up front what they wonder EVERY TIME they approach a car.
#4 Keep your hands on top of the steering wheel until they are at your window. They WILL appreciate it. Move slowly when you do move. Have your wallet in hand if you can without fumbling around in the car while they are approaching - it might look like you're hiding stuff (or grabbing a weapon? )even if you're just going for your registration and proof of insurance. Otherwise leave it in your pocket for now.
# 5 Greet them. Hello officer. What seems to be the trouble?
#6 Hand them your DL and CCW together. Tell him that 2nd one is my carry permit, i am carrying, (where it is - right hip, small of back, etc). If doing so might expose your weapon before you can hand them your CCW, tell them before you reach for your wallet. Go slow. Not using the word GUN is really a simple, but excellent, idea.
#7. If they insist on taking possession of your gun, agree pleasantly(even though this will be the hardest thing you ever let someone do), ask what they want you to do, and offer to help safe it if they are not familiar with the weapon. Especially if you carry with one in the chamber, tell them.
#8. If things get worse from that point, it's on the LEO. Get the badge #, ask for a supervisor to come to the stop.
# 9 otherwise, take your warning or your ticket, take your weapon back as applicable, and get going.

Remember that every single time an officer makes a traffic stop, he is at full alert watching you and assessing whether you are a threat. Every single time. Too darn many get gunned down making a simple traffic stop. So be an un-threat.

 

[rockwerks]

+++ to Ironhorse and Queball and Redhat and the others who aren't posturing or playing the macho card


What is in your best interest in a traffic stop? In order - not get shot, not get arrested, not get hassled, not get a ticket. How? It isn't rocket science. Hard to believe so many of you would deliberately set the stage for a potential nasty encounter by insisting on secrecy. You keep your gun secret from the public and the BGs, but not from a LEO in a personal encounter. Period. If you are a legal CCW, your rights are secure. What to do?

#1 - Obey the law. If you must inform, do so.
# 2 Even if you don't legally have to, do it anyway. It is axiomatic if you follow # 3.
#3 Be respectful. LEOs have very tough jobs, but i'm glad they are there doing them. They deal with too many jerkoffs (not to mention criminals) so make the exchange easier for both of you by being pleasant.In other words, let them know you're one of the good guys by telling them up front what they wonder EVERY TIME they approach a car.
#4 Keep your hands on top of the steering wheel until they are at your window. They WILL appreciate it. Move slowly when you do move. Have your wallet in hand if you can without fumbling around in the car while they are approaching - it might look like you're hiding stuff (or grabbing a weapon? )even if you're just going for your registration and proof of insurance. Otherwise leave it in your pocket for now.
# 5 Greet them. Hello officer. What seems to be the trouble?
#6 Hand them your DL and CCW together. Tell him that 2nd one is my carry permit, i am carrying, (where it is - right hip, small of back, etc). If doing so might expose your weapon before you can hand them your CCW, tell them before you reach for your wallet. Go slow. Not using the word GUN is really a simple, but excellent, idea.
#7. If they insist on taking possession of your gun, agree pleasantly(even though this will be the hardest thing you ever let someone do), ask what they want you to do, and offer to help safe it if they are not familiar with the weapon. Especially if you carry with one in the chamber, tell them.
#8. If things get worse from that point, it's on the LEO. Get the badge #, ask for a supervisor to come to the stop.
# 9 otherwise, take your warning or your ticket, take your weapon back as applicable, and get going.

Remember that every single time an officer makes a traffic stop, he is at full alert watching you and assessing whether you are a threat. Every single time. Too darn many get gunned down making a simple traffic stop. So be an un-threat.

a very wise response. That is exactly what the LEO deserves. They are out there placing their life on the line and you dont give them enough respect them to give them info to help him be at ease, you are then part of the problem

 

[devildave31]

Why do people keep assuming that by not informing when they are not legally obligated, that they are also being an a$$?

If I am law abiding citizen and I have any other type of legal item in my pocket and I don't tell the officer is it secrecy?

 

[queball]

+10 to Daughtery16 - Great explanation and instruction.

I do not think of anyone adhering strictly to their rights of not notifying is an a$$. I simply do not see how actively cooperating and providing information that will, most of the time, improve the atmosphere of the encounter is putting someone's rights at risk. If your rights are violated, legal action can and SHOULD per persued, no question.

Note that I have never claimed that not notifying was not cooperating with the LEO... I just feel that there is a big difference between "active" and "passive" cooperation. Food for thought.

One other suggestion to Daughtery16's list, that may help bridge the gap of opinion... I always have a small digital voice recorder in a cubby of my dash. If I am pulled over, rather than take the time (and risk) of going for my wallet before the LEO arrives at my door, I simply push the record button. I then have audio proof of the entire encounter. You have every right to do so. Works great to give YOU peace of mind about the pending encounter, should you be treated less than fairly. Also, since you know it is there, it keeps your own emotions and actions more in check. If you decide not to record it because you are worried about what you yourself might say, then just maybe the LEO is not the one who has a problem???

 

[utimmer43]

That is a major difference from what your original post states.

My post #'s are 11, 12, 26, 32, 42, 54, 59, 63, 74, 77, and 87. Which one of them would you say is any different than my last? I have just gone through all of them. A handful of them don't even relate to an LEO encounter, and the most "unpolite" one was a crack about cops and donuts. All my pertaining statements are consistent. I'll be polite and answer his questions, but nothing more. That's a threat? That's disrespectful?

 

[rockwerks]

Why do people keep assuming that by not informing when they are not legally obligated, that they are also being an a$$?

If I am law abiding citizen and I have any other type of legal item in my pocket and I don't tell the officer is it secrecy?

When you get drawn on because your piece is printing through your shirt and your face is plastered in the pavement take a picture so we can all laugh our asses off OK?:biggrin::sarcastic:

 

[Hounddog]

Where can you get an audio recorder like Queball described? That sound like a good idea.

 

[utimmer43]

When you get drawn on because your piece is printing through your shirt and your face is plastered in the pavement take a picture so we can all laugh our asses off OK?:biggrin::sarcastic:

Aside from your statement being childish, it also supports a reason NOT to inform. An officer that would draw on you or feed you pavement because of a mere print (that, as far as he knows, might be a gun) would likely do the same (or close to the same) as soon as you try to inform him. A cool calm and collected officer (IF he even felt threatened) would ask what is under your shirt and go from there.

 

[rockwerks]

Aside from your statement being childish, it also supports a reason NOT to inform. An officer that would draw on you or feed you pavement because of a mere print (that, as far as he knows, might be a gun) would likely do the same (or close to the same) as soon as you try to inform him. A cool calm and collected officer (IF he even felt threatened) would ask what is under your shirt and go from there.

You are either a very naive individual know nothing of human behavior or asking for trouble. By informing you will negate any confrontation, Good luck in the future you are going to need it!

I have been pulled over 2 times while carrying, once was with a well seasoned officer and one with a kid cop with an attitude. Both times because I handed over my CPL with my license it was a moot point no issue at all.

Matter of fact both times i was not cited for speeding and the conversation turned to what I carry and how I liked it and how it shot.

I will be at the shooting range with one of the LEO's next week.

These are guys like us they like to shoot and they have a very stressful job and should always have our support and that would be to give them the respect to inform them that you are carrying. I guess we will never be on the same page.

 

[utimmer43]

You are either a very naive individual know nothing of human behavior ... By informing you will negate any confrontation...

I know at least this much about human behavior: all humans think/ act/ respond differently. To generically state that informing will negate any confrontation is a poorly thought out assumption two fold. It assumes that the LEO will flip out if you don't inform, and that he will not flip out if you do. But I'm not worried about the LEO over reacting anyway, as I believe the majority of them to be rational. Plus we have a SCOTUS ruling on Terry v. Ohio (1968) which states in regard to the 4th amendment and specifically "stop and frisk" (from wikipedia)

"when a policeman "observes unusual conduct" that leads him to reasonably believe "that criminal activity may be afoot" and that the suspicious person has a weapon and is presently dangerous to the policeman or others, he may conduct a "pat-down search" (or "frisk"), to determine whether the person is in fact carrying a weapon."

I hardly believe that a simple gun print by itself falls under that reasonable belief. And that is just to justify a pat-down search. I don't believe I'm naive in saying that getting tossed facedown is far beyond a pat-down. But again, over-reaction isn't really one of my reasons to not inform. I'm not really afraid that the situation will escalate just because I didn't inform. On the other hand, it seems to be a fairly popular reason TO inform. Between you and me, I think I give them more credit as being rational, while you seem to be the paranoid one.

(BTW, if you do decide to visit the wikipedia article on 4A, be sure to read the whole thing. There is alot of pertinent information there. Try to relate it to the idea of a LEO over reacting to a weapon. I think you will find it enlightening.)

...or asking for trouble.

Not really asking for it, but nor do I fear it enough to give up my freedom. Neither did the Founding Fathers.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."- Ben Franklin.

Think of informing as giving up a little liberty, and putting the LEO at ease as gaining a little security. Liberty is never just snatched away from us all at once. It is taken (or more likely, GIVEN) little by little. Pretty soon, informing is just the norm, and so why not just make it a law? (if it isn't already) This is how we have gotten to where we are today, with so many restrictions on something that wasn't ever supposed to be restricted in the first place.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson.

This goes back to not fearing trouble. If a LEO totally flips out and over reacts over me NOT doing something I'm NOT obligated to do, and decides to feed me pavement, that officer won't be on the force very long. Do I want that to happen? No. And as many of you have stated, as have I, the majority of LEOs are rational. And to that extent, I believe they would not over react. But, I'm willing to take that face beating if it is in exchange of getting a rare bad cop off the force.

Maybe it is because I am in a gun friendly state (Utah), but I see way too much paranoia about this subject...

I would actually see that as another reason not to inform. If I am in a gun-friendly environment, then the gun is of no concern to anyone. However, I could definately see the case being made in say NY, a very gun-unfriendly place. Just out of principle, I personally still would not inform if I were ever in that situation, which is all but impossible because I can see NO seneraio where I would ever live in NY. But I can see weighing the odds of a LEO flipping out if you don't inform, and I think NY would have the highest odds.

As long as you are not involved in criminal activty there will be no problem.

Give me a break. This arguement also ties in to the 4th amendment, at least in analogy. Are you going to let a cop search your house without a warrant? I'm not, and I hope you don't either. So what if you have nothing to hide? That is the whole point. You're not doing anything wrong and unless a warrant has been secured, based on some probable cause, they have no business rifleing through your effects or your papers. Same thing applies to informing. I'm not doing anything wrong, so why not inform? For that very reason, because I'm not doing anything wrong. The fact that I have a firearm in my possession has nothing to do with the stop. The firearm wasn't speeding, I was.

Wasn't Oklahoma that was looking to change the (shall inform) law because it only applied to law abiding license holders and did nothing to those who actually were a threat to the cop and society who was illegally carrying?

I don't know about OK specifically, but that concept ties in with the 5th amendment and U.S. v. Haynes- 1968. The SCOTUS ruled that convicted felons cannot be prosecuted for failing to register a firearm because it would be self incrimination. The same can be said for the states that require you to inform the LEO. If you are not a felon, you will become one if you don't inform in some of these states. But, if you were already a felon, you could not be charged with failure to inform, because you would be incriminating yourself. How non-sensical is it that the law would only apply to otherwise law-abiding citizens? The topic of this thread assumes no duty to inform, but this is very closely related. As I have stated earlier, if informing becomes the norm, it could very well become the law.

+++ to Ironhorse and Queball and Redhat and the others who aren't posturing or playing the macho card...

I'm not posturing or trying to sound macho. There are just some principles that I stand strongly for, as did the Founding Fathers. And I'm not comparing myself to them, so don't even start on that. I know I don't hold a candle to their wisdom and intelect, and most of all their experience, nor does anyone else here. They knew how important it was/ is to stand up for your freedom and rights because they lived under the rule of tyrants. Everything I do or say, I try to do in their likeness and with their passion, because some 200+ years later, it is no less important.

 

[maybejim]

As I've said before, it is not disrespectful to not notify an officer if I'm carrying or not provided the law doesn't specify the requirement to notify. I am not a threat to the officer. If I was, I certainly wouldn't notify and he wouldn't know until I became a threat. I will follow the law but I don't know the guy. I don't know his attitude towards a citizen doing what is legal. I don't know his level of knowledge in handling guns that are not the one he trains with. I don't trust anyone I don't know handling a loaded gun closely around me. I am very watchful when I am at a range because of that. I am not bashful about speaking up (respectfully) when guns are mishandled. If a police officer were to take my weapon, he has already shown disrespect for me, and I would be afraid to criticize his mishandling of my weapon if he did.

I have only been stopped once in the 16 years that I have been carrying and I did not notify. Generally that is going to be my position.