I know some of you are going to bash me

[Are You Prepared]

Are you implying that if I had just been willing to sneak my gun in concealed and that if no one knew I could just get away with it? If the property owner didn't have the weight of law behind his right to ban guns why would I have to sneak it in?

Do you announce that you are carrying concealed at every business you walk into? If you do, then stop carrying and leave it at home, and look up the definition of "concealed"! It means out of view, out of sight, hidden from view. You are not obliged to divulge to anyone, other than if pulled over by a cop, that you have a weapon on your person!

If a business owner banned you carrying your cell phone into their establishment, would you? Carrying your concealed weapon is a right, NOT a privilege, as the gov't and anti-gun zealots would have you believe?

I'm not trying to make myself sound like an honorable person but I appreciate you thinking I might be because I'm willing to stand up for my beliefs and drive the extra miles to eat tacos. But in regards to someone disagreeing with my standards ..... what part of this little tidbit I posted long ago do you not understand????

Do you believe in and eye-for-an-eye, or fighting fire with fire?

Perhaps your argument concerning the honorable thing isn't with me but is with that guy you look at in the mirror.

The "honorable thing" is to protect yourself and your loved ones, no matter what and no matter where. . .PERIOD!

If you fall into the anti's trap of not carrying where it is posted "no firearms allowed," then I have no respect for you and you should quit carrying.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Are you implying that if I had just been willing to sneak my gun in concealed and that if no one knew I could just get away with it? If the property owner didn't have the weight of law behind his right to ban guns why would I have to sneak it in?

Do you announce that you are carrying concealed at every business you walk into? If you do, then stop carrying and leave it at home, and look up the definition of "concealed"! It means out of view, out of sight, hidden from view. You are not obliged to divulge to anyone, other than if pulled over by a cop, that you have a weapon on your person!

If a business owner banned you carrying your cell phone into their establishment, would you? Carrying your concealed weapon is a right, NOT a privilege, as the gov't and anti-gun zealots would have you believe?

I'm not trying to make myself sound like an honorable person but I appreciate you thinking I might be because I'm willing to stand up for my beliefs and drive the extra miles to eat tacos. But in regards to someone disagreeing with my standards ..... what part of this little tidbit I posted long ago do you not understand????

Do you believe in and eye-for-an-eye, or fighting fire with fire?

Perhaps your argument concerning the honorable thing isn't with me but is with that guy you look at in the mirror.

The "honorable thing" is to protect yourself and your loved ones, no matter what and no matter where. . .PERIOD!

If you fall into the anti's trap of not carrying where it is posted "no firearms allowed," then I have no respect for you and you should quit carrying.

Ignorance is bliss. Elitism and ignorance...and we think Obama is bad?

 

[Pitbull11]

Ignorance is bliss. Elitism and ignorance...and we think Obama is bad?

So you must be in a state of bliss!! Been patting down any grocery shoppers lately? Because all of us gun owners on this site know (like you have stated in your other posts) that anytime you walk into any store any employee or the owner can come up to you and search you without permission. At least that is your personal experience in Washington state . God I love this $hit

 

[Firefighterchen]

Ignorance is bliss. Elitism and ignorance...and we think Obama is bad?

So you must be in a state of bliss!! Been patting down any grocery shoppers lately? Because all of us gun owners on this site know (like you have stated in your other posts) that anytime you walk into any store any employee or the owner can come up to you and search you without permission. At least that is your personal experience in Washington state . God I love this $hit

Why would I pat down people at a grocery store now? Oh, you must think I still work there, you might want to go to the doctors to see if you have borderline intellectual functioning. Maybe I was wrong before, maybe you can't understand even the simplest things. Then again, you "were" a cop, so it doesn't surprise me.

 

[Bikenut]

Do you announce that you are carrying concealed at every business you walk into? If you do, then stop carrying and leave it at home, and look up the definition of "concealed"! It means out of view, out of sight, hidden from view. You are not obliged to divulge to anyone, other than if pulled over by a cop, that you have a weapon on your person!

-snip-

If you fall into the anti's trap of not carrying where it is posted "no firearms allowed," then I have no respect for you and you should quit carrying.

Since I open carry everywhere I go everyday it is obvious I'm carrying a gun and I don't have to announce I'm also carrying a gun concealed when I walk into a business. But if a business has a "no guns" policy or rule I respect the property owner's right to make the rules and I don't cover up my openly carried sidearm and sneak my guns in "concealed" like a little kid with a secret.... I go to a different business where my gun(s), and my money, are welcomed.

Now about respect....

If you think your right to bear arms deserves to be respected but the store owner's right to make the rules on/in his property... the same right that you enjoy in your own yard and house... means nothing then why do you advise sneaking the gun in "concealed"? Especially when your location says Montana & Arizona? I'm not sure about Montana but I do know open carry is legal in Arizona so if you think your right to bear arms trumps the property owner's right to ban guns why don't you stand up for that right and just walk in openly carrying instead of sneaking your gun in concealed? You know... demand the store respect your right instead of sneaking it in?

Could it be that you know if the store owner knew you were bringing a gun into/onto his private property against the rule he has the right to make he would throw you out? Worse yet that store owner might have you arrested? Are you advising sneaking the gun in "concealed" so you won't be thrown out or arrested? Where is the respect for the store owner's rights in that?

As for respect? Where is your respect for the private property right of the store owner? I have no doubt you would scream about your property rights at your home because of the old saying "My house, my rules." because you are the private owner of that property yet fail to understand that even though the store owner invited you in to buy his stuff that store is STILL "His house, his rules." because he is the private owner of that property.

Respect? Who is the one being intentionally disrespectful by knowingly sneaking a gun in against the no gun rule the store owner has the right to impose?

And that old excuse of having the right to defend themselves no matter where they are falls flat when it is understood that all that is necessary is to not go where your ability to defend yourself is not compromised. You don't own the store and have no right to be there in the first place. Think you do? Then why can the store owner throw you out?

And the simple fact that you put so much emphasis on the word "concealed" tells me you do understand the store owner has the right to ban guns and that is why you sneak your gun in "concealed" since you know if you got caught you'd get thrown out.

As far as falling into the anti's trap? Dude... you have fallen for the anti way of thinking where only your personal favorite right is important and everyone else should respect it and any other right you don't like is............ unimportant and not worthy of respect. And there are many other folks who have that attitude and I think that is sad.

 

[Pitbull11]

"Maybe I was wrong before"

The problem I had with your previous posts was when you stated customers could be searched by the owner and employees of any business. You stated where you had worked in a grocery store you saw this happen all the time. I assume you were making this claim to try and support business owners posting no gun signs. These signs have no force of law. Now if the owner saw you were carrying, they can ask you to get off their property. The 4th adm. Protects the concealed carry gun owner. I will state that if you saw someone stealing from the grocery store, the owner has the right to detain the criminal and call the police, who would then search the suspect. Maybe we misunderstood each other and that is what you ment?

 

[Pitbull11]

Since I open carry everywhere I go everyday it is obvious I'm carrying a gun and I don't have to announce I'm also carrying a gun concealed when I walk into a business. But if a business has a "no guns" policy or rule I respect the property owner's right to make the rules and I don't cover up my openly carried sidearm and sneak my guns in "concealed" like a little kid with a secret.... I go to a different business where my gun(s), and my money, are welcomed.

Now about respect....

If you think your right to bear arms deserves to be respected but the store owner's right to make the rules on/in his property... the same right that you enjoy in your own yard and house... means nothing then why do you advise sneaking the gun in "concealed"? Especially when your location says Montana & Arizona? I'm not sure about Montana but I do know open carry is legal in Arizona so if you think your right to bear arms trumps the property owner's right to ban guns why don't you stand up for that right and just walk in openly carrying instead of sneaking your gun in concealed? You know... demand the store respect your right instead of sneaking it in?

Could it be that you know if the store owner knew you were bringing a gun into/onto his private property against the rule he has the right to make he would throw you out? Worse yet that store owner might have you arrested? Are you advising sneaking the gun in "concealed" so you won't be thrown out or arrested? Where is the respect for the store owner's rights in that?

As for respect? Where is your respect for the private property right of the store owner? I have no doubt you would scream about your property rights at your home because of the old saying "My house, my rules." because you are the private owner of that property yet fail to understand that even though the store owner invited you in to buy his stuff that store is STILL "His house, his rules." because he is the private owner of that property.

Respect? Who is the one being intentionally disrespectful by knowingly sneaking a gun in against the no gun rule the store owner has the right to impose?

And that old excuse of having the right to defend themselves no matter where they are falls flat when it is understood that all that is necessary is to not go where your ability to defend yourself is not compromised. You don't own the store and have no right to be there in the first place. Think you do? Then why can the store owner throw you out?

And the simple fact that you put so much emphasis on the word "concealed" tells me you do understand the store owner has the right to ban guns and that is why you sneak your gun in "concealed" since you know if you got caught you'd get thrown out.

As far as falling into the anti's trap? Dude... you have fallen for the anti way of thinking where only your personal favorite right is important and everyone else should respect it and any other right you don't like is............ unimportant and not worthy of respect. And there are many other folks who have that attitude and I think that is sad.

Glad you got that explained! I will continue to follow the laws in the state I live in an visit and I will know in my heart that you will personally follow the directions of all the signs that they put up in any business you do business with. I hope there are no signs telling you to wear lace panties and lip stick

 

[Bikenut]

Glad you got that explained! I will continue to follow the laws in the state I live in an visit and I will know in my heart that you will personally follow the directions of all the signs that they put up in any business you do business with. I hope there are no signs telling you to wear lace panties and lip stick

I too follow the laws in my State but I also respect the right of others whether the law requires it or not because if I were to demand my right to bear arms be respected while disrespecting the property owner's right to ban guns on/in his property by intentionally sneaking in a gun thinking it's Ok if I keep it concealed so I won't get caught............. I would be a hypocrite.

And a business owner has the right to make any rules he wishes... including banning guns and requiring lace panties and lipstick... but any business that bans guns or requires lace panties and lipstick doesn't deserve my money. But it seems there are some here who would disrespect the property owner's right to make the rules and ignore any signs because "concealed means concealed" translates to "as long as I sneak it in and get away with it it's Ok".

The funny part of that is... if it's Ok to disrespect the property owner's right to ban guns why is it necessary to sneak the gun in?

And the hero of the leftist elite, Saul Alinsky, would be proud of your use of insults as an arguing ploy.

Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals

 

[Pitbull11]

I too follow the laws in my State but I also respect the right of others whether the law requires it or not because if I were to demand my right to bear arms be respected while disrespecting the property owner's right to ban guns on/in his property by intentionally sneaking in a gun thinking it's Ok if I keep it concealed so I won't get caught............. I would be a hypocrite.

And a business owner has the right to make any rules he wishes... including banning guns and requiring lace panties and lipstick... but any business that bans guns or requires lace panties and lipstick doesn't deserve my money. But it seems there are some here who would disrespect the property owner's right to make the rules and ignore any signs because "concealed means concealed" translates to "as long as I sneak it in and get away with it it's Ok".

The funny part of that is... if it's Ok to disrespect the property owner's right to ban guns why is it necessary to sneak the gun in?

And the hero of the leftist elite, Saul Alinsky, would be proud of your use of insults as an arguing ploy.

Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals

You sound like Jimmy Carter

 

[Pitbull11]

Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals

I'm more like Sun Wu (The Art of War)

 

[Bikenut]

You sound like Jimmy Carter

And many of your arguments in favor of disrespecting the right of the property owner using ridicule and insults sound similar to many of the arguments put forth by anti gunners as they attempt to justify disrespecting the right to bear arms.

I'm more like Sun Wu (The Art of War)

Ummm.... Ok.

 

[Pitbull11]

And many of your arguments in favor of disrespecting the right of the property owner using ridicule and insults sound similar to many of the arguments put forth by anti gunners as they attempt to justify disrespecting the right to bear arms.


Ummm.... Ok.

You sound like Joe McCarthy

 

[Bikenut]

You sound like Jimmy Carter

You sound like Joe McCarthy

He who has nothing substantial to offer in support of his arguments resorts to insults.
Have a nice day.

 

[Pitbull11]

He who has nothing substantial to offer in support of his arguments resorts to insults.
Have a nice day.

Lets drill down and talk about rights versus the law of the land. 2nd adm right to bear arms versus the law against convicted felons to have a gun or a mentally ill person to have a gun? Where do you stand on that question?

 

[Bikenut]

Lets drill down and talk about rights versus the law of the land. 2nd adm right to bear arms versus the law against convicted felons to have a gun or a mentally ill person to have a gun? Where do you stand on that question?

Let's finish the discussion we were having about respecting/disrespecting rights first shall we? Or do you wish to evade that by redirecting the discussion into an area you think you might win?

 

[Firefighterchen]

The problem I had with your previous posts was when you stated customers could be searched by the owner and employees of any business. You stated where you had worked in a grocery store you saw this happen all the time. I assume you were making this claim to try and support business owners posting no gun signs. These signs have no force of law. Now if the owner saw you were carrying, they can ask you to get off their property. The 4th adm. Protects the concealed carry gun owner. I will state that if you saw someone stealing from the grocery store, the owner has the right to detain the criminal and call the police, who would then search the suspect. Maybe we misunderstood each other and that is what you ment?

No you got my message right. Customers can, and DO, get searched all the time in private business's. Stadiums, airports, movie theaters, grocery stores, etc, they all have the right to search anyone on their property. Now, grocery stores don't just go around searching their customers, but that does not mean they do not have the right to. They even have the right to search their employees. As a paramedic and a state employee I did not have the right to search anyone out in the public unless LEO had a warrant or probable cause. Now, I am not in the public sector anymore, and I am back in the private sector, and again I see our own private security searching trespassers well before police arrive if police are even called. Again, we are not being sued for any of the reasons you mentioned before.

Searching people, and yes they were almost always thieves, was a normal occurrence at the grocery store I had worked at. It had nothing to do with no gun signs. The only way no gun signs and the right for a business to search it's customers if they were on the business's private property to connect are if a gun was found during the search. At that point, even though the sign holds no weight of law, the rules were no guns allowed, and the gun owner must leave, or they will be trespassed.

The closest we, as a grocery store, ever got to being in trouble was when we found a crack pipe in the purse of a shoplifter. Police were not called at that point as the merchandise was under <10$. After the crackpipe was found, police were called. The druggy said we had no warrant to search her, so the police should not be allowed to prosecute her for drug possession. The DA responded that since we were a private entity, we did not need a warrant, and when we turned everything over to the police, it was fair game.

There were plenty of times that this happened, when police are only called to run a background check but never come to the store. The shoplifter was searched, and fined, by the store, not the police.

Do I support business's who ban firearms? No, I will go elsewhere to spend my money. Do I support the right for business's to ban guns? Yes because all our rights are important.

The 4th amendment protects EVERYONE, not just CC'ers, from the government, not private property owners. The Constitution was written to restrict government, not the people.

 

[Pitbull11]

The only store that would have the right to search would be say Costco since when you join part of the membership application states that you give up that right if you want to join. Now when you throw in shop lifters you change things. Your now talking stealing. Now you have the proprietors right law, that in most states gives the owner the right to detain and depending on the state, search personal possessions. But if you are wrong you can be sued. But if I am in your store shopping you have no right to stop me and search me. You mention stadiums, the ticket gives them the right to check the stuff you bring in, it's a contract. Airports ( your kidding me right?). Being a private citizen does not give you any special right to search another citizen without their permission. If you don't agree with what I just said then let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Pitbull11]

Let's finish the discussion we were having about respecting/disrespecting rights first shall we? Or do you wish to evade that by redirecting the discussion into an area you think you might win?

You don't see that this is part of the discussion? If you are going by the 2nd adm. Rights, the 2nd adm. Does not say the right to bear arms does not extend to crazy people and felons, right? So based on your literal interpretation of someones rights under the constitution everyone should be able to carry around a gun. Lets talk personal property rights. I own a farm, it's my farm I can do anything I want on my personal property right? Can I decide to not pay taxes? Can I grow pot? Can I shoot anyone that comes on my property? I do have property rights and gun rights but they are limited by the law. I think this about what people value. You want to judge others based on your own personal values. People disagree on what they value, pretty obvious based on all the posts. But it is obvious you are the better person, the rest of us should not be trusted!! I was about to shave this morning but I could not look myself in the mirror.

 

[Firefighterchen]

The only store that would have the right to search would be say Costco since when you join part of the membership application states that you give up that right if you want to join. Now when you throw in shop lifters you change things. Your now talking stealing. Now you have the proprietors right law, that in most states gives the owner the right to detain and depending on the state, search personal possessions. But if you are wrong you can be sued. But if I am in your store shopping you have no right to stop me and search me. You mention stadiums, the ticket gives them the right to check the stuff you bring in, it's a contract. Airports ( your kidding me right?). Being a private citizen does not give you any special right to search another citizen without their permission. If you don't agree with what I just said then let's just agree to disagree.

As an employee of the store I have every right to stop you as you are on my private property. If you don't want me to search through your stuff you can leave. Doesn't matter if there is a ticket to enter or a membership to be there.

It doesn't happen often, but I have seen a few people searched at the store who couldn't be charged for some reason or another. Again, still have not been sued. I don't see where you are getting all this suing business from.

Every airliner searches through your stuff, not just TSA. Every employee of the airport has the right to stop any passenger and if need be search the bag, granted there are enough police in that vicinity, the airport still holds that right.

 

[Pitbull11]

As an employee of the store I have every right to stop you as you are on my private property. If you don't want me to search through your stuff you can leave.

Well we both agree about this.