How many shots are nessessary


Maine is correct on the GSW. MOAB also stands for Management Of Aggressive Behavior. MOAB® training presents principles, techniques, and skills for recognizing, reducing, and managing violent and aggressive behavior. The key here is recognizing it. This doesn't mean, "He was swearing at me so I thought he had a knife so I shot him", it means, "Sir, the individual was clenching and un-clenching his fists. I saw him inhale to expand his chest and he then rolled his shoulders forward in an aggressive manner. He brought his fists up and began to repeatedly stare at my jaw, which typically signifies where he intends to land a blow. At that time the volume of his voice increased and he began to use profanity and threaten me with physical harm. One of the things he said was "I am going to kill you". He then took 3 steps towards me, closing with 4 feet of me. He was approximately 3 inches and 50 bls bigger than me. He reached into his pocket and pulled out a knife. I felt my life was being threatened so I drew my legally owned firearm and defended myself. Once I drew my Sig P226, he continued to move quickly towards me. As I stepped backwards, I fired until he was no longer a threat. At that time I used my cell phone to dial 911. after securing his hands with my belt, I proceeded to administer what aid I could until Police and EMT's arrived."

The first aid part is ENTIRELY up to you. If you dont feel comfortable doing it, then DO NOT. Providing aid, beyond any moral obligation you may or may not feel, on the legal side, in the event of a possible civil law it can be a great help.
 

In the movies people see what happens when they are shot and expect that same thing to happen in real life, and that is not so.
The sure way for a bad guy to go down is a CNS hit.
And from what I see on this form many are using ammunition that does not penetrate deep enough to reach the CNS.
Even a shot to the heart the bad guy may be a threat for 10-15 seconds.
Ever stop to think how many shots a bad guy could get off in 10-15 seconds.
 
I would like to say one to three. This question brings up the reason why we carry only .45 ACP.

17 panic rounds of 9mm or 1 shot center of mass .45?
 
I expected as much for answers, like I said hopefully none of us will ever need to worry about weather it takes 1 shot or 17, all I was saying is what happened to this guy, and what the judge said, only other thing I know about it is it was a ongoing fued the two guys were haveing, but from what I understand the bad guy in the deal got his in the end, I'm not really sure if the shooter ever did any real time, as the dead guy did have a bad repuation around town, he ran a bar that specialized in whatever you wanted, it was never proved, but was suspected that the dead guy shot and killed another guy over a hooker/gambling dept, when the bad guy himself was shot there was a lot of hubub about it at the time, but since seems like we never heard much more about it??????????
 
Icewind said:
I would like to say one to three. This question brings up the reason why we carry only .45 ACP.

17 panic rounds of 9mm or 1 shot center of mass .45?
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Who are you talking about? Who is we? I carry a .40 and .380 both of which will do its job near as well as a .45 if I place them center of mass.

How about 10 near hits of .45 and a panic reload or 8 center of mass .40?
 
I believe the number show that a .45 will stop a person better than a 40 S&W
And a 40S&W will stop a person better than a 9mm.
 
How many rounds?

Jim Cirillo had two members of his squad that was in a shooting. A gunman fired a shot at one cop, and he returned fire putting 6 rounds in the gunmans face, who was jouned by his partner who fired 5 round in his face.
The gunman did go down but sat up, ask for a tissue to blow his nose. When the ambulance came he stood, was cuffed and walked on his own steam to the vehicle.
This guy had 11 shots in his head and neck.
 
Stan45 said:
I believe the number show that a .45 will stop a person better than a 40 S&W
And a 40S&W will stop a person better than a 9mm.
Click to expand...


See we get that theses are bigger rounds , in reality though a .38 would be better then a .40 if you can shoot it better . A .22 would be better then a .45 if you can shoot it better . In a life and death situation it's a lot better said then done . When someone puts a gun in your face you will know what I mean . It's a terrible feeling and I'd rather carry something that can be taken out and I can shoot under stress over a bigger bullet .....
 
Every situation has a chance of going in front of a DA who's not going to be rational or wants to make a name for him/her self. You never know if your gonna get brought up on charges for 1 shot or justified for 15. I carry a Ruger SRedhawk Alaskan .454 Casull CC & have run through many legal scenarios in my mind. Just hope ya never have to explain why you had to pull the trigger in the first place.
 
eagleeyes said:
perhaps the perp didn't go down till after the mag was emptied? and then only 8 or 9 rounds hit him and depending on where the perp still could have been trying to attack?
at anyrate i hope the person trying to defend himself walks as any person should who had to defend him or herself against any physical attack
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It is nice to know that the judge is such an expert on which shot immobilized the slime, or how many shots it took to immobilize the slime. I am sure the judge would have counted his shots and predetermined that after 4 or so shots, it would be legally indefensible to account for additional shots. It is you and the slime and it it takes you more shots for you to presume that the imminent threat is over so be it. If there are witnesses and they can testify that you stood over the essentially unconscious slime and pumped another few bullets into his body--then you have a problem. Sounds like this is where this story is going.
 
In my opinion, no longer being a threat would fall under 2 areas. First if the individual you have engaged with your firearm is no longer standing, and the second is if he has dropped his or her weapon. Now obviously as with many things, there are holes in my description.

If the threat is coming from a WWE wrestler who is 6 foot 13 and puts steroids on his Cheerios each morning, then his fists would be the weapon and he cant drop those. So.... If he was on his ass and not coming towards me I would stop engaging. Only if he became a threat again, (attempting to come towards me again) would I consider re-engaging.

Also, since we have now moved into the size of the round area; here are my thoughts. A hit with anything is better than a miss. As with any firearm that you plan on carrying or using primarily in self defense, you have to be able to use it properly. That means; hitting what you aim at, reloading, working the slide, etc. I have a client that can not work the slide on the .40 that her husband bought her. It also did not fit her hand properly. We found her a 9mm that fits well, she can handle the recoil, and she can work all the functions properly. Is she better off protecting herself with a 9mm that she can engage the threat with, or a .40 that she can not. (we worked with revolvers as well but she did not feel comfortable with them) If you have the ability to use a .45 well, and get the job done, that is great. But not everyone can. I have seen full grown men dropped with one 9mm round, and I have seen men hit by rifle rounds keep running and fighting. Shot placement is King and caliber is Queen. (And before some of you ask, where have you seen this, I served in Iraq with the United States Marine Corps.)

Stay safe.
 
The FBI directors name escapes me.... However, I believe it goes something like this:
Talking to reporter who asked what it took to stop a bad guy and why so many shots were fired. "Two shots to center mass until the threat stops." Reporter, "What happens if he doesn't stop?" Director, "Two shots to center mass until the threat stops." Reporter, "What if you only see his head?" Director, "Two shots to center mass until the threat stops."

That is one reason to practice double taps.
 
Icewind said:
I would like to say one to three. This question brings up the reason why we carry only .45 ACP.

17 panic rounds of 9mm or 1 shot center of mass .45?
Click to expand...

A hit with any caliber is more effective than a miss with any caliber.

6 or 7 panic rounds of .45 are equally as ineffective as 17 panic rounds of 9mm (or any other caliber including RPG's).

A .45 center of mass that doesn't hit anything important is equally as ineffective at producing a timely stop to an attack as a .22 center of mass that doesn't hit anything important.

A .22 that hits something important is more effective than a .45 that doesn't hit something important.

So caliber size is secondary to the ability to hit something important.

Shot placement beats caliber size every time all the time.
 
Bikenut said:
A hit with any caliber is more effective than a miss with any caliber.

6 or 7 panic rounds of .45 are equally as ineffective as 17 panic rounds of 9mm (or any other caliber including RPG's).

A .45 center of mass that doesn't hit anything important is equally as ineffective at producing a timely stop to an attack as a .22 center of mass that doesn't hit anything important.

A .22 that hits something important is more effective than a .45 that doesn't hit something important.

So caliber size is secondary to the ability to hit something important.

Shot placement beats caliber size every time all the time.
Click to expand...


I have to disagree with this concept.
The FBI may have thought that till the Miami shootout.
There is an excellent book
Forensic Analysis by W. French Anderson, MD.
This book as diagrams showing where the bullets went, many were good shot placement. But the bad guys were still in the fight.

The bullet has to have enough energy to cause a stop, even with a CNS hit.
There were shots that just missed major arteries or nerves, where a few thousands of an inch in diameter would have hit these and may have saved some lives of these FBI men.

Shot placement is great, BUT if the bullet does not penetrate deep enough with enough energy to cause a stop your world will turn into a nightmare.
 
I am not quite sure exactly what it is you are disagreeing with. Anderson's book is indeed a must read. One of his major points is that handgun rounds are all inadequate when compared to rifle or even carbine rounds. Further, he discovered that many of the FBI hits were well-placed; lack of penetration was the key culprit in the FBI rounds failure to stop. Your statement, "The bullet has to have enough energy to cause a stop, even with a CNS hit.", while accurate, does not address what actually causes a "stop". When speaking of handgun bullets, it is virtually only penetration into a vital organ, be it CNS, Pulmonary, or Cardio-vascular. Even then, excepting CNS damage, the primary mechanism seems to be blood loss and the associated loss of blood pressure. With rifle bullets at higher velocities, permanent stretch comes into play but that is not the case with handguns.

So, to sum up: shot placement with penetration are the key factors in stopping the fight.
 
ernstdesigns said:
If I were in one of these situations, I would shoot until the threat was neutralized. If it only takes one shot, so be it. If it takes all 17 rounds from my Ruger SR9, so be it. I would rather be alive than dead because I was worried about whether I used too many bullets.
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
PathinAZ said:
Every situation has a chance of going in front of a DA who's not going to be rational or wants to make a name for him/her self. You never know if your gonna get brought up on charges for 1 shot or justified for 15. I carry a Ruger SRedhawk Alaskan .454 Casull CC & have run through many legal scenarios in my mind. Just hope ya never have to explain why you had to pull the trigger in the first place.
Click to expand...

I personaly have no problem with it, in fact carryed a 7inch super redhawk 454 myself for a couple days, but if you ever did need your gun to defend yourself, I can almost garrenty somebody will ask why you carry a hand canon like that, for a personal protection gun, and you can bet some overzelous DA would have a field day with it
 
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