Hollow Point Question


MateMike

New member
I am a retired NYC Police Officer. After retiring I have had a carry permit in Pennsylvania I then moved to Florida where a carry permit was not needed. I am now living in NJ and find I must go through the whole process of applying for a carry permit (which I may not get) as though I never held a pistol. What a state!!

The question I have is: I heard NJ is the only state that does not allow hollow point ammo to be used other than in your own home. Is this true?
 

This site may answer your question: Link Removed

Transportation and Use of Hollow Point Ammunition by Sportsmen

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

In addition, the sportsman should have a valid hunting license in his possession from the state in which he plans to hunt and should be familiar with that state's gun laws. N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f)(2) requires a person hunting in this State to have a valid hunting license in his possession while traveling to or from the hunting area. Hunting with hollow nose ammunition is permitted in New Jersey. In the case of a New Jersey resident traveling to another state to hunt, it logically would follow that the hunting license would be from the state where the hunter is going. Although the federal statute does not require possession of a hunting license, it does require that the person transporting the firearm be going to a state where possession of that object is lawful. A valid hunting license from that state effectively supplies the proof.

These conditions for use and transport of hollow nose ammunition are consistent with the legislative intent to restrict the use of such ammunition to a limited number of people. It is well established that in construing a statute exceptions are to be "strictly but reasonably construed, consistent with the manifest reason and purpose of the law." Service Armament Co. v. Hyland, 70 N.J. 550, 558-559 (1976). The State Supreme Court has "characterized the Gun Control Law as 'highly purposed and conscientiously designed toward preventing criminal and other unfit elements from acquiring firearms while enabling the fit elements of society to obtain them with minimal burdens.'" Id. at 559.

Wouldn't you be covered by "L.E.O.S.A."????



gf
 

CapGun

New member
Again this is a great site and I continue to learn. I had a question about transporting hollow point ammo through NJ. I think this answers my question but just to be sure any help would be appreciated.
Then it is not simply "outlawed to have/transport hollow point ammo in NJ.There are exceptions. I have a Pa. carry license and will be driving to Florida. I guess then all I have to do is keep the ammo locked up but not loaded in handgun or magazine.
Also as far as what "hollow point" qualification actually is...If the ammo has some type of ball or material in the point (therefore point is not actually hollow) does that actually mean that it will not be classified as "hollow point"? Don't want to be on the wrong side of the law due to ignorance. I know that EFMJ wouild be a good choice to avoid this problem but that is tough to come by in this difficult time of supply and demand.
Any comments as always will be helpful, Thanks
 

FN1910

New member
Sounds as if you can have hollow point ammo in NJ but you can't shoot anything with it, especially people. As long as you keep it in you house locked up in your safe you are fine. Otherwise I wll defer to the experts as to why you should go to the trouble of gettin it. That is about as bad as you can't pump your own gas in NJ.
 

Mr. Vegas

New member
I don't understand why they would rather you didn't carry HP's. Just from a safety stand point, their less likely to penetrate the bad guy and continue downrange into some other poor bastard walking his dog.

I just don't see the logic these " powers that be" go by....
 

CapGun

New member
Mr Vegas>> If you don't mind. Hollow Points are so lethal. How could anyone be so mean and use that type of ammo?!:jester:
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
I don't mean to be ignorant, but what is L.E.O.S.A. ??
Law enforcement officer safety act or 18 USC 926B and C. Honorably retired LEOs with 15 years of aggregate service can qualify in their primary State of residency to carry a concealable firearm. The State must provide LEOSA qualification (not all States do) and qualification must be done at the retiree's expense.
 

MateMike

New member
Thanx. I just recently found out I do qualify. It used to be in New Jersey that you had to apply within 6 months of retirement but that has now been changed.
 

Mohave-Tec

New member
Is there a list of states that don't alow hollow points? OK, we know about NJ but I have a Utah CCW permit and travel between Nevada and North Carolina with it. I can conceal carry all the way across this stretch of the nation with it but don't know if there are particular choice of amunition laws in any of these states. (I also have a Nevada CCW)
 

RugerP345

New member
Well, I a NC olinian and I can definatley tell you that hollowpoints are permitted in NC. I carry mAGTACH fIRST dEFENSE, wINCHESTER pERSONAL dEFENSE, AND Winchester silvertips in my .45.







.
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
Is there a list of states that don't alow hollow points? OK, we know about NJ but I have a Utah CCW permit and travel between Nevada and North Carolina with it. I can conceal carry all the way across this stretch of the nation with it but don't know if there are particular choice of amunition laws in any of these states. (I also have a Nevada CCW)
NJ is the only State I know of with a hollowpoint prohibition.
 

Jim_Macklin

New member
I am a retired NYC Police Officer. After retiring I have had a carry permit in Pennsylvania I then moved to Florida where a carry permit was not needed. I am now living in NJ and find I must go through the whole process of applying for a carry permit (which I may not get) as though I never held a pistol. What a state!!

The question I have is: I heard NJ is the only state that does not allow hollow point ammo to be used other than in your own home. Is this true?
If you had 15 years on the job and retired honorably, you qualify for 218 and can qualify with whatever PD is where you now live and can carry nation-wide. Contact your former Department or your PBA rep and get your papers in order.
Here is what the Sedgwick County Kansas Sheriff says about retired officer carry.
Sedgwick County, Kansas Retired Deputy Carry Concealed Qualifications Standards - Sedgwick County, Kansas Sheriff's Office
18 USC 926C - Retired Deputy Carry Concealed Qualifications

Standard Operating Procedure

Section 2 (b)(4) of 18 USC 926C allows for agencies to establish qualification standards of it's retired officers. The Sedgwick County Sheriff's Office has adopted such standards and has created a Link Removed for all retired Sedgwick County Sheriff's Deputies to document such qualification.
Step 1:
Complete the applicable portion and print a copy OR obtain a copy of the “Link Removed” from the Sheriff’s Administration Office.
Step 2:
Deliver a completed copy of the form to the Sheriff Administration Office.
Administrative personnel will complete the required portion of the form and upon approval will return the form to the applying retired deputy.
Step 3:
Bring the completed and approved form to the Wichita/Sedgwick Firearms Training Facility.
Please phone ahead to range staff to ensure range availability.
Additional items needed: Firearm(s) they wish to qualify with (a maximum of three), new “factory” ammunition for each firearm, a proper holster (no shoulder or ankle holsters).
Provided items: target, eye and ear protection.
Step 4:
Range staff will log firearm(s) for record keeping purposes, inspect firearm(s) for safety and qualify the retired deputy on the State of Kansas Standard Firearms Course.
Upon passing qualification, range staff will issue the required qualification card to the retired deputy.
Range staff will maintain records for each weapon used to qualify.
Retired deputies will be given two (2) attempts at qualifying with each weapon. Upon failure of second attempt, the deputy will not be allowed to attempt to qualify again for 30 days.
Kansas Standard Firearms Qualification Course:

Stage 1:

  • 3 yard line – Beginning at the 1 ½ yard line, shooters will draw and fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds as they are stepping backward and moving laterally. 2X
Stage 2:

  • 5 yard line – Shooters will draw and fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds use a two-hand grip. 2X
Stage 3:

  • 7 yard line – From threat ready, shooters will fire 2 rounds using a two-hand grip then transition to a two-hand off-hand grip and fire 2 rounds. 10 seconds.
  • 7 yard line – Shooters will fire 3 rounds from threat ready using the strong hand ONLY. 4 seconds
  • 7 yard line – Shooters will fire 3 rounds using a two-hand grip from threat ready while taking one step laterally. 4 seconds. 2X
Stage 4:

  • 10 yard line – Shooters will draw and fire 4 rounds using a two-hand grip in 5 seconds. 2X
Stage 5:

  • 15 yard line – Shooters will draw and fire 4 rounds using a two-hand grip in 6 seconds.
  • 15 yard line – Shooters will draw and fire 3 rounds using a two-hand grip in 5 seconds.
Stage 6:

  • 25 yard line – Shooters will draw and fire 5 rounds using a two-hand grip, supported by barricade in 15 seconds.
  • 25 yard line – Shooters will draw and fire 5 rounds using a two-hand grip, supported by barricade while kneeling in 15 seconds.
18 USC 926C PCS​
Calendar No. 599​
108th CONGRESS​
2d Session​
H. R. 218​
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES​
--------------------------------------------------​
AN ACT
To amend title 18, United States Code, to exempt qualified current and former law enforcement officers from State laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed handguns.​

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004'.
SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.
(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:
`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers
`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--
`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.
`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--
`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;
`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;
`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;
`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;
`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.
`(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer.
`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--
`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
`(3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.
(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926A the following:
`926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers.'.
SEC. 3. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.
(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is further amended by inserting after section 926B the following:
`Sec. 926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers
`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--
`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.
`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified retired law enforcement officer' means an individual who--
`(1) retired in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer, other than for reasons of mental instability;
`(2) before such retirement, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest;
`(3)(A) before such retirement, was regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 15 years or more; or
`(B) retired from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;
`(4) has a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement plan of the agency;
`(5) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the State's standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms;
`(6) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
`(7) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.
`(d) The identification required by this subsection is--
`(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the standards established by the agency for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or
`(2)(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer; and
`(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State to meet the standards established by the State for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.
`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--
`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
`(3) a destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.
(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is further amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926B the following:
`926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers.'

Passed the House of Representatives June 23, 2004.​
Attest:
JEFF TRANDAHL,​
Clerk.​
Calendar No. 599​

108th CONGRESS​
2d Session​
H. R. 218.​
 

c45man

New member
Under the Law Enforcement Safety Act and carrying a weapon with a retired officer qualification card under such act, the new jersey hollow point restriction would not apply. No more than the already countless number of new jersey laws realtive to concealed carry and their "who do you know" permit system. The problem is not hollow points, your problem as a retired officer is waiting for your home state to initiate legislation that would lay the ground work for the standards set forth winthin the above safety act. Pennsylvania has just now administered the required groundwork for their retired officers to qualify for the certification required under the LESA. Once qualification through a standardized course of live fire has been satisfied, a retired L.E. can carry in any state as well as D.C. The only restriction, outside of carrying on Federal Property, would be the wishes of private property owners. If such property owner does not want the carrying of a weapon within their domain, then the carrier of such permit must either leave the gun off premises or leave the property.

I do not believe New York has set any ground work as described above. Retired New Jersey Officers should not hold their breath for that state to implement any procedure relative to the LESA.
 

Jim_Macklin

New member
Law enforcement officer safety act or 18 USC 926B and C. Honorably retired LEOs with 15 years of aggregate service can qualify in their primary State of residency to carry a concealable firearm. The State must provide LEOSA qualification (not all States do) and qualification must be done at the retiree's expense.
I think they must be certified by the department where they worked and retire, but can qualify at any certified police training facility where they presently live.
 

Dewhitewolf

Armed Snowboarder
MateMike, NJ law has been changed. The 6 month provision has been removed for NJ.

Link Removed

LEOSA (sometimes called HR 218 by cops) allows u to carry nationwide, as long as u meet the criteria: current or retired LEO, not prohibited from owning or carrying firearms, qualify once (or more) per year in your state of residence.

LEOSA does not protect you as far as laws/regulations on ammunition; if NJ does not allow citizens with carry permits to use hollow point ammo, then neither are you. It also does not exempt you from magazine restrictions (in other words, when in NJ, leave the magazines over 15 rounds at home). Another word of caution, it only cancels the application of state law, NOT any federal law that existed before it. So, no carrying in federal buildings, commercial aircraft, or anywhere else prohibited by federal law.

There's an attorney in NJ that gives a seminar on how this law applies, and how you can be compliant and avoid inadvertently breaking the law. If you want to contact me privately, I'll give you his contact information. He offers this seminar to active and retired LEO's, other attorneys, and even whole departments. He has successfully argued this law in court, in NJ and NY, as well as in Federal District court.

On a different note, since when is a carry permit not needed in Florida?
 

Jim_Macklin

New member
where HP not allowed

When in NJ all carry guns should have a 4 or a 5 in the caliber.:pleasantry:

A few expanding bullets are not HP and will expand just fine. There are many jurisdictions with strange gun and bullet laws. Topeka Kansas doesn't allow plastic tipped bullets, New Mexico doesn't allow you to carry a back-up concealed. Oklahoma does not allow calibers above .45. [so that excludes the .50 GI and the .500 S&W, but a 460 S&W is legal:hang3:

Federal Premium Expanding Full Metal Jacket Ammunition is an ideal choice for law enforcement agencies that don't permit hollow point ammunition. This revolutionary barrier-penetrating design combines a scored full metal nose over an internal rubber tip that collapses on impact. It never fills with barrier material and assures expansion on every shot. A lead core at the base maintains weight retention. This is loaded ammunition.
 

tpd223

New member
Howdy, first post here.

I'm an LEO and was surfing for information on New jersey laws when I found this site.

I noted the posting above and wanted to make note that we are working on the law in Topeka (as in rescinding the whole thing) since it was/is poorly written and was originally passed to ban "Rhino ammo" in a knee jerk reaction by some anti-gun folks who are no longer around.

This law literally bans any plastic tipped or plastic ammo, so even such training ammo as Simunitions marking rounds would be illegal.
 
New jersey sucks

You can't even pump your own gas. Gun owners are made to jump though hoops. The taxes are among the highest in the nation.

IMO, NEW JERSEY SUCKS.:fie:
 

c45man

New member
Notwithstanding any provision of any state law with few exceptions including limitations on government property, limitiations on carrying against the wishes of a private property owner, and certain prohibitive weapons...machine guns, silencers,etc. Hollow point bullets are not among the prohibitions regarding the officers safety act. Please don't use the logic that because new jersey residents can't carry hollow points that it also applies to officer safety act carriers. To use that argument to its logical conclusion then one could argue that officers carrying under the color of the officers safety act would also need a new jersey carry permit like private citizens of that state. How about the law in north carolina where a citizen is required to notify a police officer on a traffic stop that they are carrying a weapon. The required notification in north carolina and the hollow point prohibition in new jersey do not apply relative to the provisions of the officers safety act. Please don't read beyond the intent of the law.
 

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