Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

[Scouse]

I think you were too lenient also, but I was not there, he was seen off the premises, good one.

These bizarre actions? It sounds like he was getting up the courage to press the trigger!

We have had quite a few suicides in indoor Gun Ranges here in Orlando. If your Police Officer Instructor had seen this type of action on a domestic call? Cuffed, and a 72 hour visit to a Syc ward!

 

[OCCI]

I tell ya what. This almost happened in one of my classes recently. A fellow with no experience turned the gun to look down the barrel. (certainly made my heart jump) his question, even though it was covered prior to going to the range, was "How do I know if its unloaded." So we stopped shooting, had a seat and went through the procedure once again, with a small hint ... if you do it again, I will have to fail you.

The whole time, I was thinking about this thread.

 

[Iteach4U]

Handled well. Just don't ever let it go as long as it did. What you described were gross safety violations and those are absolutely intolerable as they easily result in ND's and bad real-world behaviors, to which bad behaviors were already apparent. That first gross violation would have been grounds for ejection, but absolutely on the 2nd. I've ejected non-students on a shared range before for sweeping a muzzle (thankfully of an unloaded firearm) at my students. Ticked the guy off, but he wasn't given a choice in the matter.

I'm actually surprised you refunded his money, some might not have at that point given that the instructors' time had been utilized. The refund option is the best way to avoid backlash.

Make sure you file a report with the NRA Credentials office on the matter that way if he tries to get a certificate anywhere else he'll have major issues if he makes similar mistakes. You'd be helping protect other NRA instructors, particularly those in your area.

 

[40 compact]

another know it all no doubt. can't beleive it took you that long to boot him. accident waiting to happen, hopefully he don't shoot or kill a bystander.

 

[JohnLM]

Sound like this guy was a walking time bomb! Hope he is never allowed to carry a gun. He will either kill himself or someone else.

 

[gunsite]

This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.

Get him the hell out-of-there, you can't have this happening when the line is live... when you reach the point of a live line, this kind of safety violations are unacceptable, pointing a weapon at someone and/or looking down the barrel... your out of here.
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Link Removed

 

[rchamberlain]

Sounds to me like you gave him every chance. You were the one there and what the circumstances were so I can't second guess what you did but man, this guy sounds like an idiot. You may have saved someone's life.

 

[Riley T]

You did the most logical thing, his failure to follow clearly worded instructions put everyone at risk. Good job.

 

[wrs25936]

to easy going

After the first. Violation he should have been gone. As a retired drill instructor that behavior not tolerated at all. He put everyone at risk. My youngest daughter could tell him a thing or too

 

[mississippi21]

You handled it good. I had a friend one time while shooting the gun misfired instead of him clearing it he looked down the barrel while squeezing the trigger then the pistol discharged barley missing his face. I immediately took the gun he's never gone with us since

 

[logical Larry]

I agree that you gave hime too many chances. In the military, if you flag anyone, the Sgt would come over to you and you would not be able to get up for about 10 minutes after he closed line you.

 

[mkufams]

There are some people that are not mentally capable to handle a gun. this guy seems like a gsv waiting to happen. I assure you that in the next few months you will see in the paper where he either shot himself or someone else.

I personally believe it went on too long. After the 1st request he should have been ejected. I would have each student sign something at the sign up of the class that "any" safety violations will result in immediate ejection of the class. This will put the responsibility back onto the student. There is no way to remove all the crazies from your line of work but you can limit the damage they may cause by acting fast and severely if a violation occurs.

 

[Raider-3]

You can't fix stupid.

 

[XD40FAN]

The second time he unsafely handled the gun it would have been "out" of here!

 

[joereppucci]

Amazed

I am a new owner of a pistol and CCL, about 4 months and I am continually amazed at how people like this have a license. I applaud your professionalism and patience with this bozo. Is there a way you can pursue getting his permit revoked ?

 

[BC1]

I am a new owner of a pistol and CCL, about 4 months and I am continually amazed at how people like this have a license. I applaud your professionalism and patience with this bozo. Is there a way you can pursue getting his permit revoked ?

When we tried to disarm him, he refused to hand over the gun. One instructor was a police officer and gave him a choice. Hand it over or be arrested on a reckl-ass endangerment charge. He handed it over. We took his ammo (paid him for it) and escorted him out, locking the gate behind him. I think the message was sent.

 

[bhrama]

When we tried to disarm him, he refused to hand over the gun. One instructor was a police officer and gave him a choice. Hand it over or be arrested on a reckl-ass endangerment charge. He handed it over. We took his ammo (paid him for it) and escorted him out, locking the gate behind him. I think the message was sent.

Good job handling a bad situation.

That's pretty "muddy" in legal terms confiscating the guys gun even though the instructor was a LEO.
The situation could have been even "muddier" if no LEO had been there.

 

[NCIC105]

Idiots born every minute!
I had a similar incident about 8 years ago with a security guard when I was conducting a re-certification, were on the line conducting live fire. He wanted to keep turning around with a hot weapon. Needless to say he did not keep weapon pointed down range or at the ground!..After 3rd occurrence we removed him from the line and he like your guy wanted to instruct us how we were wrong.

We had his security license revoked.

I think you made the only call you could make to keep others safe!

 

[AlphaKoncepts]

You did the right thing, not just for the sake of the club, your career but for his own sake. I took a friend shooting one time. I got him setup on the line, gave him the run down, and went off to the long range line. Well when I left him I heard later the RO had raised his voice with my friend a few times. The violation was primarily not keeping the muzzle pointed down range. Some may say this is my fault for not staying with the friend, but he had his own firearm and I assumed he knew how to use it (safely). My friend was inexperienced and is much better now, but your student was just an plan idiot.

Seriously at the 2nd or 3rd chance that's game over, get out. This guy is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[OpenCarryYes]

I took my 3 boys to the range last week, ages 17, 16 and 11... Not one safety problem and we had 5 pistols and 2 rifles with us. The hardest part was getting them to help me clean them after we werre through. Seems they had better things to do . We're going back this weekend to break in 3 new guns and they are excited. This time there is a condition to their enjoyment... They have to help clean them afterwards.

I guess the key here is to find a way to test everyone before these classes to see if they are teachable. If they are not willing to submit to the classroom authority on ALL points, they shouldn't be allowed to even attend the class.