Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

[BC1]

This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.

 

[concealdcarrier]

It is what it is

You did everything you could. Unfortunately while you gave him several chances at being safe around the rest of the people, the gun however is not so forgiving. If you want to know my honest opinion, and if I was instructing, I would've given the expectations of the class, which I am certain you did, and stood by them. It isn't personal, it's VERY PERSONAL. If it wasn't for the responsible weapons owners, we'd not have the privilege and right to have them.

 

[Glock Fan]

He got off easy. ANYONE flagging ANYONE (including themselves) in the class gets an automatic invitation to leave the class. I wouldn't have given him a refund. He used class materials and occupied a seat that another more responsible student could have occupied.

Makes me wonder if he was a reporter or anti-gun person working undercover.



gf

 

[bwoods1978]

I agree.

You handled it absolutley as professional as humanly possible. I have been an NRA instructor for a while now and certified as an instructor with other organizations and have had to remove a few students over the years.

Personally, I would have removed him after the first time I caught him looking down a barrel of a loaded firearm. No ifs ands or butts about it. The NRA curriculum you are referring to, the first 8 hours are firearms safety before you go to live fire. If you are looking down the barrel of a .45 after that then you simply don't need to own a firearm, period. I don't want to come off like a hard ass, I understand people make mistakes but what people fail to understand sometimes is this is not a damn game, we are dealing with novice people and loaded firearms if you can't listen to instruction your ass needs to GO and in a hurry.

I think personally you handled it very professionaly and lived up to the NRA ethics of conduct in every possible way.

-Brian

 

[FN1910]

Makes me wonder if he was a reporter or anti-gun person working undercover.

I would doubt that but rather one of these cases that demonstrate the difference between stupidity and ignorance. (Ignorance can be cured). The worst part of this if after he leaves the class he is free to continue the stupidity on in the public very possibly having his name in the papers soon as a demonstration of why guns are bad. The sad thing is so many times people like this, just as with DUI, they don't get hurt but someone else pays for their stupidity. The only thing better than what you did would have been if you had been able to take his ability to even have a gun away. I know that is harsh but sometime we have to face the facts that some people should not be allowed to have guns. This is my opinion and count for the same as all other opinions.

 

[Felix]

Did we handle him correctly.

Absolutely...except you waited too long to boot 'em out, IMO.

Hope you didn't refund his course fee either.

 

[HootmonSccy]

I'm with Felix.. He was given too many chances..

I would have had him lay his weapon on the table after the 1st offense. Walked him away from the firing line and discussed what he did, why it was wrong, and IF he did it again he would be removed from the firing line immediately and would not be returning. (Yes he would have argued), but would known what the consequences were.. On the second offense, Off the line he would have went...

I think this approach is even generous.. once is enough, but it is a class environment and people do make mistakes (Even stupid mistakes).

Good on you returning his money, although I don't think you will be getting any referrals from him.. (He didn't deserve it back, but sometimes it's just better to give the $$ back)

Even better that you took his NRA certificate back!!!

 

[NavyLCDR]

My vote is for too many chances. I think you were too lenient.

 

[Punch]

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

Other than not removing him after the first offense, I don't see anything wrong with what you did. I, too, have been trained by LEO's and Military instructors. I cannot imagine any of my instructors allowing me to continue with live fire after exhibiting that kind of behavior. In fact, I probably would not have been allowed to come back for the second day. I admire your patience, but I believe that you took on too much liability by allowing him so many chances. However, that being said, you were the one teaching the class and not me, so it is your decision based on your experience at the time that counts and not my opinion.

 

[XJ_MAC]

I think he should be reported to his issuing authority for review.

 

[handgonnetoter]

When I took the Utah Non-Resident CCW class, we had some weiner like that. This guy was starting to tick off even the women in the class! He finally started to calm down a bit after the two instructors we had told him numerous time that nobody cared about what his buddies do or how he does things. The scary thing is that this guy probably got his permit too!:wacko:

 

[eaccents]

CCW licenses - annotations?

I think he should be reported to his issuing authority for review.

I agree.

Even though some will argue with me, I really don't want the idiots of this world to have weapons ...

 

[Rocketgeezer]

Not only should you have tossed him after the first warning, this person should not only not be allowed to have a CCW permit, he should not be allowed to even own a gun, handgun, rifle, or shotgun, and I'm not so sure about a pellet gun or a paintball gun:angry:

 

[BC1]

Other than not removing him after the first offense, I don't see anything wrong with what you did. I, too, have been trained by LEO's and Military instructors. I cannot imagine any of my instructors allowing me to continue with live fire after exhibiting that kind of behavior. In fact, I probably would not have been allowed to come back for the second day. I admire your patience, but I believe that you took on too much liability by allowing him so many chances. However, that being said, you were the one teaching the class and not me, so it is your decision based on your experience at the time that counts and not my opinion.

No, your opinion is extremely important to me. Thanks.

Thanks everyone. I agree, he should have been tossed sooner. Our police trainer was about to give him a "boot colonoscopy." We met today to discuss the situation on Sunday and how we might handle it in the future. The other instructors thought there was something "missing" in this guy.

I got an email from one of the students today that said...

"Bob In response to your post in usa carry forum, I was a student in your class that day and these are my thoughts. I think you and your staff showed remarkable patience and restraint in dealing with this person. It was like having Curly of the Three Stooges to deal with. On Sat. he was annoying, but on Sun. he was a life-threating situation. Perhaps this gentleman might benefit from a more basic course such as "Eddie Eagle", although I would not wish this guy on another NRA instructor. I thoroughly enjoyed your classes and cannot place a dollar value on the instruction I received. I will highly recommend your class to anyone considering carrying a fire arm for self-defense. You and your staff are truely professionals of the highest order."​

I'm humbled by this student's comments. Thanks to all of you for your advice. Next time we'll move faster to expell.

Stay safe out there,
BC

 

[mappow]

All that needed saying in your Post BC1 "He had much difficulty following instructions." You're the R.O., they don't comply with instructions, they are off the range. Maximum discipline, NO exception. You did the right thing.

 

[Glock Fan]

When I took the Utah Non-Resident CCW class, we had some weiner like that. This guy was starting to tick off even the women in the class! He finally started to calm down a bit after the two instructors we had told him numerous time that nobody cared about what his buddies do or how he does things. The scary thing is that this guy probably got his permit too!:wacko:

I had a guy like that in one of my UT CFP classes. Not so much upsetting the ladies, more like interrupting every time I was talking about one of the "legal aspects" of UT law. Every student had a copy of the lesson plan that I was teaching from (as required by UT BCI), so it's no surprise what I'm gonna talk about next. This guy would comment about how "wrong" the law was and how it should be changed. After the first hour or so of the class, I was finally fed up with him and had a one on one with him during a break. The guy told me he was an attorney and "knew" the law, so the class was a waste of his time. Not wanting to waste his time (my time or the time of the other students), I promptly invited him to leave and offered him a full refund. At that point he got really upset and called me a few vulgarities, tossed his class materials, and took off. Never heard from the guy again.

Having had asked the question regarding "questionable" people taking my class, I was advised by the folks at UT BCI to let them know about anyone I had concerns about. I had no problem forwarding this clown's info to UT BCI. Not sure if he got his CFP, but the clown attempted to sign up for another class a few months later using bogus personal info, BUT THE SAME EMAIL ADDRESS! :fie:

If you are an instructor, and you have someone who's really "missing some screws", I feel that it's your duty to report the person to the proper authorities. It's not an action to be taken lightly, however an important one in keeping firearms out of the hands of nut cases. Lately I've heard a lot of media coverage about "lawful firearms owners" that committed crimes. I'd like to do my part to curb that trend.



gf

 

[stever]

When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).


I feel the gun should have been retained by the LEO, and student referred to some sort of counselling..sorry next time might not be so lucky..if he does end up causing a shooting accident in the future and somehow it is learned of his problem in your class, I'm sure a lawyer somehow will say you may have prevented it.

 

[Dutch1911]

I believe all was done in the best interest of his well being and those that participated. I'll play devils advocate a little bit... I don't believe the LEO had any rights to effect an arrest regarding the handing over of the weapon. He wasn't breaking any laws, but rather is one of those individuals that clearly has no clue pertaining to gun safety.
Dutch1911
1/*

 

[Punch]

I believe all was done in the best interest of his well being and those that participated. I'll play devils advocate a little bit... I don't believe the LEO had any rights to effect an arrest regarding the handing over of the weapon. He wasn't breaking any laws, but rather is one of those individuals that clearly has no clue pertaining to gun safety.
Dutch1911
1/*

Agree. The laws of each state obviously vary, but our state laws specify when a police officer can disarm a citizen. Doing so outside of these parameters is a felony offense on the part of the officer. That is how seriously the RTKBA is in Nebraska. Temporarily removing the firearm from the person as was done and returning it when he was off the property is well within those guidelines. Confiscating the weapon may not be, particularly if the person already has a CHP and is attending a "refesher" or attending with someone else, such as a spouse. The laws regarding the disarming of a CHP holder by law enforcement are VERY specific, including what has to be included on the reciept for the weapon that must be given the CHP holder if his weapon is confiscated.

 

[BC1]

I believe all was done in the best interest of his well being and those that participated. I'll play devils advocate a little bit... I don't believe the LEO had any rights to effect an arrest regarding the handing over of the weapon. He wasn't breaking any laws, but rather is one of those individuals that clearly has no clue pertaining to gun safety.
Dutch1911
1/*

Hi Dutch. Under NYS Penal Law he could have been arrested. He got off easy.

S 120.20 Reckless endangerment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the second degree when he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person.

Reckless endangerment in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

S 120.25 Reckless endangerment in the first degree.
A person is guilty of reckless endangerment in the first degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person.

Reckless endangerment in the first degree is a class D felony.