Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought


Had a guy like that in basic training. While on the range he swept the line several times. He was repeatedly warned on the range and when we were clearing our weapons off range he fired one off over the DI'S head. from that day forward he was referered to as Boom Boom. He also never completed basic. This person was untrainable and was discharged from the Army. You were right to remove this person from the range. I would also have reported his actions to the issuing authority about his actions to maby saving some bystander in the future. Your guy may be one like I just described.
 

You know instinctively after you crank a car engine a few times, if it is going to start or not. You do not have to crank it until the battery will no longer support the dome light in the interior, to know it will not start and run.

The failure of the staff to not weed out the problem, in the beginning stages of the first day of instruction, and allowing the incompetent student onto a gun range, with a loaded firearm, to be blunt, shows your program needs reprogramming, to stress safety for all your students, and your staff.
 
Guy's an idiot.

I always have my students repeat a statement over and over throughout our classroom work until it becomes a mantra: "All guns are loaded. All safeties are broken." Hopefully whenever they see a gun, they will assume "it's loaded and the safety is broken" before they pick it up.
 
lzflashback said:
Guy's an idiot.

I always have my students repeat a statement over and over throughout our classroom work until it becomes a mantra: "All guns are loaded. All safeties are broken." Hopefully whenever they see a gun, they will assume "it's loaded and the safety is broken" before they pick it up.
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:fie::fie:

Yikes if carrying a gun and that happened, it would be firing fully automatic all on its own. !!! :fie: :fie:
 
I believe you did everything correct. As a new instructor, this would be my worst nightmare and your story reconfirms my course of actions should I ever have a "PITA" student.

BC1 said:
This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.
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If you felt you had to remove a student then Im sure you had a good reason. Typically if we get a student who has "troubles" and we have to fail, we offer a free seat in our next class. I understand how it feels to have to fail a student for various reasons. However, we do it in love and the safety for the everyone around them, no matter how much they object. Keep up the good work and dont let a "trouble" student keep you down. - Aaron M
 
Dutch1911 said:
I believe all was done in the best interest of his well being and those that participated. I'll play devils advocate a little bit... I don't believe the LEO had any rights to effect an arrest regarding the handing over of the weapon. He wasn't breaking any laws, but rather is one of those individuals that clearly has no clue pertaining to gun safety.
Dutch1911
1/*
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Not sure what the laws in your state are, but there must be something such as brandishing, reckless behavior, GATTOP, self endangerment, endangerment of others.
 
BC1 said:
This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.
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I think I would not have refunded him squat.
 
I always say once a jerk always a jerk and he sure sounded like one. I thought you were very kind to this guy, I would have ejected him sooner.
 
Quite frankly I'm a lil surprised you didn't boot him after the 1st violation, considering he already had a ccw. Definitely after the second incident. You were a lot more lenient than I would have been, there is zero excuses for failing the basic gun safety rules of which he broke like all of them.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
 
That was one dude that holstered the SAFETY Between his ears!!
I too would have Booted him, Well Done, Sir!
 
I'm surprised you felt the urge to ask for opinions. You know you did the right thing. I doubt anyone with the a differing opinion could rise to your level in the industry. Keep up the good work.
 
I 100% agree. That individual would have been removed, but without refund. I am not forgiving when it comes to safety violations, and I tell my students that up front and make sure they understand this. I put it in context for them. You can't fix stupid.
 
BC1 said:
The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.
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I'm not sure why you let him stay on the range. He was a danger to you and the others on the range. Leaving him on the range would mean that he could disrupt the class even more.
 
On the range in a live fire, no warnings, one mistake, the first. Wow. Yea, he would not have that many chances. He should wear a corrective hat.
 
I agree with many here. You did the right thing as professionally as you could. I think in my case I would have booted him sooner, but I was not there, you were, and made the call as you saw fit. Stay safe and keep up the good work.
 
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