Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

[Guns in Australia]

I'm really surprised it took quite a number of serious safety breaches before you escorted him off the course. In Australia the first breach of him looking down the barrel would have been enough to ask him to leave. Here you need to pass your safety training before you can apply for a licence to obtain a pistol.

I would think you'd open yourself up to a negligence claim, something your insurance wouldn't cover, if he would have shot himself or someone else after the first safety breach. It sounds pretty clear he is mentally defective.

 

[Billy_B]

I'm sure that you lay the ground work as to what a student will be expelled from the class for before it even starts. Every class I have taken starts with the instructor telling you to follow instructions, keep weapon pointed down range, load when told ect ect. I attended a class as an observer when my wife took her CCW class. they were told breaking any of those rules would result in being kicked out. This instructor explained that he has only had to do this a couple of times. He made believers out of her class and they had no problems. That guy you are talking about wouldn't have made it past the first violation.

 

[bkunick]

As a fellow NRA PPOTH Instructor I understand your difficulty.

In our classes, the first time he looked down the barrel (in a non-event) he would have received his warning. The second time he looked down the barrel or committed any other major safety violation he would have been counseled out of the class, with the availability to return another time AFTER demonstrating his ability to handle a firearm safely.

His prior instructors are partially to blame for this too. This type of unsafe action on the range doesn't just happen overnight. It is likely this individual exhibited his problems in Basic Pistol and PPITH.

Also, your response to the individual was correct in disarming him. He has to realize that it is not only his safety we are concerned about. It is the safety of every other student and instructor in that class! I think he needs some one-on-one shooting lessons with a qualified shooting instructor.

 

[Guns in Australia]

As a fellow NRA PPOTH Instructor I understand your difficulty.

In our classes, the first time he looked down the barrel (in a non-event) he would have received his warning. The second time he looked down the barrel or committed any other major safety violation he would have been counseled out of the class, with the availability to return another time AFTER demonstrating his ability to handle a firearm safely.

His prior instructors are partially to blame for this too. This type of unsafe action on the range doesn't just happen overnight. It is likely this individual exhibited his problems in Basic Pistol and PPITH.

Also, your response to the individual was correct in disarming him. He has to realize that it is not only his safety we are concerned about. It is the safety of every other student and instructor in that class! I think he needs some one-on-one shooting lessons with a qualified shooting instructor.

In Australia the first would not even be a warning. He would be expelled and told never to come back. Not sure how you define minor and major safety violations. Accidental discharge while pointed down range while changing mags would be considered minor in Australia and we would allow a couple of those in their lifetime as a member of a shooting club. Sweeping your own body part would be considered minor or major depending on the situation. In Australia you have to be a member of a pistol club to maintain a pistol licence, so if the club rejects you, there goes your licence and the right to even own a pistol.

A major violation would be pointing a gun at oneself or anyone else (loaded or unloaded), unless in a classroom, repair or safe area situation where the firearms have been verified as clear. No handling of ammunition in safe areas or classrooms either.

Some people just should not handle firearms in my opinion... especially in public. I don't want some cowboy with a gun trying to protect me on the streets if someone were threatening me. I'd rather take care of it myself.

 

[Shoobee]

BC1, all the range courses I know of use a 2 strike policy.

Strike one, you get a stern and embarrassing warning.

Strike two, and you are history.

 

[vanns40]

Holy smoke! I've been teaching for more than 35 years and thought I'd seen it all. You beat me by a millennia! I think you may have let it continue a little to long but you were there not me so I'm not going to second guess you. No matter, the end result was correct.

 

[SWMO Instructor]

In any of our classes, the first violation constituted gross negligence and would have resulted in immediate ejection from the premises. How bad would it have been if he had capped another student after a warning? You would have been responsible for allowing him to stay there after he demonstrated his lack of regard for human safety.

But, aside from personal opinion and differing SOP, you did fine.

 

[wolf_fire]

Not being witness to what you were and only having your side of the episode to go by, I would have to commend you for not pistol whipping this idiot with his own pistol. We personally were not allowed to even begin live fire unless we could recite verbatim the four rules to safe gun handling. We then had to explain why each of these rules was important. From what you say this moron did, you had to protect your other students, your lives, your good names, and the name of the club.

I'm glad you did what you did, but I certainly would not have ever allowed him the chance to look down a barrel twice in the same lesson. That's just me.

 

[lostinataxi]

If he handles weapons so carelessly, he stands a good chance of being in the news some day. I agree he should be reported and not be a ccw. It will just make us all look bad when the day comes he shoots someone due to his careless firearms handling habit. I've seen this sort of thing when at our outdoor range where I shoot and there's no range safety officer around. I just pack up and leave when I see someone handling their firearms carelessly. It doesn't happen too often, but it HAS happened to me. You don't get a 2nd chance at it, if the bullet goes out the barrel when you don't want it to.

 

[tricolordad]

This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.

Wow...i would have given it back to him empty but made him sign a waiver first. If he does kill himself, it's not your fault. You tried to teach him. He was unwilling to learn. And stupid.

 

[Rick Benn]

My .02. You did not eject him soon enough. For a gross safety issue (like every one of his were) I will eject on the first offense. If you let those safety issues slide and a student injures himself or another AFTER repeated offenses, you are setting yourself up for even greater liability for not taking steps to prevent that injury. Repeated verbal warnings are not considered to be suitable action to prevent injury.

As far as taking away his personal gun and locking it up until the end of the class then ejecting him, that is something I would never do. He would be unloaded right there on the line, escorted to his vehicle and ejected from the range immediately. Oh yeah, NO refund.

 

[KYK22]

I see nothing wrong with what actions you took in this case. When I went through the CCL class that I took, it was made very clear that anyone not following the instructors instructions on the firing line the first time that they were given would be immediately dismissed from the class and no refund of the class cost would be made. There were no problems in the class that I took.
In my opinion, anytime there are multiple shooters on the firing line, strict safety measures have to be followed. I was shooting trap several years back and one of the shooters had a release trigger on his gun while shooting to my immediate left on the firing line. He apparently forgot this fact and came within less than an inch from blowing my left foot off when he released the trigger on the firing line. I immediately left the firing line and thereafter refused to ever shoot again when anyone was using a release trigger gun. Our club eventually banned the use of released trigger guns for shooting skeet and trap after two more instances, which were caused by two different shooters other than the one I had dealt with.

 

[tricolordad]

I see nothing wrong with what actions you took in this case. When I went through the CCL class that I took, it was made very clear that anyone not following the instructors instructions on the firing line the first time that they were given would be immediately dismissed from the class and no refund of the class cost would be made. There were no problems in the class that I took.
In my opinion, anytime there are multiple shooters on the firing line, strict safety measures have to be followed. I was shooting trap several years back and one of the shooters had a release trigger on his gun while shooting to my immediate left on the firing line. He apparently forgot this fact and came within less than an inch from blowing my left foot off when he released the trigger on the firing line. I immediately left the firing line and thereafter refused to ever shoot again when anyone was using a release trigger gun. Our club eventually banned the use of released trigger guns for shooting skeet and trap after two more instances, which were caused by two different shooters other than the one I had dealt with.

You don't have a CCL or a gun. You're another anti-2A troll. Now, shoo!

 

[adatiowa]

Faster removal was needed.

Even when training Professional LE/Military if they are going to do something as ludicrous like look down the barrel of a loaded weapon they do not deserve to continue training as they compromise the safety of other participants.

While working with students (civilian or professional) once on the line if its an advanced course we usually do simulation overview with everyone's actual weapon but unloaded.

It allows to see if any are making any muzzling occurrences on themselves or students and if so that is when they are warned!

Once we get into the Live Fire applications there are NO MORE WARNINGS!!!

Your simply dismissed and not welcome until you realize the full weight of the STUPIDITY along with in some cases working on the line themselves until proving they can be trusted.

There are no excuses for blatant disrespect in the use of a firearm or those whom you are training with.

I am surprised he was actually not arrested considering how many violations occurred much less the refusal to be disarmed and removed from the property.

Glad the issue was resolved with none of the innocent trainees having to suffer consequences of that students extremely MALICIOUS and inappropriate behavior.

j.

 

[dblock]

Im not a instructor but when i took my ccdw class just last weekend we where told ONE flagging of any sort any sort or screw up on the fire line you are out of class no money back. If you miss a command or something that is ok but we are talking looking down the barrel of a loaded gun flagging, loaded gun when not on the line. They had a lot of Rules BUT for every one to be safe.

 

[Gallstones]

Please tell me what "flagging" means.

I know fragging but not flagging.


Thank you.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

Please tell me what "flagging" means.

I know fragging but not flagging.


Thank you.

Not sure, but probably being warned not to do Dumb ***** stuff, like sweeping the other students, or looking down the barrel, can't shoot, or giving the instructor crap when he corrects you, and generaly just not being as ***hole while someone is teaching you about the use of firearms

 

[tricolordad]

Please tell me what "flagging" means.

I know fragging but not flagging.


Thank you.

Flagging is when you point the muzzle at somebody, whether accidental or not.

 

[MattiMuck]

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly?

When instructing anything whether counter assault/defensive tactics, intermediate force devices, or firearms, safety is paramount. There may be some leeway given with some hands-on techniques and some less-lethal devices, but with firearms you do not have that luxury. In my opinion, action should have been taken much sooner for the other students' and the instructors' safety.


Sent from my VS840 4G using USA Carry mobile app

 

[todd]

Did you do the right thing, you bet. Kudos! There would of been flags for me in the class room. we all encourage questions and experiances. But once someone is expert on everything flag. remember we have a responsibilty to all the students. I would of and have pulled a student quietly and profesionally explain this to him/her. Funny how in a time of a vast amount of combat experiance the vet's arent the problem. As for the range, everyone is given a range brief. This was not a "beginners" class. I would off called cease fire walked over and stood behind him and askex the class the three rules of gun safety. Then I wojld of asked why he/she did what they did and explained why they shouldnt. This is not meant to "weed" anyone out but to use examples for all to learn (yes a little embarrassment neved hurt). The next safety violation the person would of been corrected anx ejected! I am a hard butt when it comes to the range, way to much at stake and I have responsibility to ALL! Now, with the tyoe you had tricky. I would of called range cold and everyone case pistols, and explained we are going back to classroom for further instruction. This is where I would of ejected him quickly, quietly, and safely. I learned this when I taught martial arts at young age and holds true, "I am the instructor, this is my class and curriculum, it might be different but this is what I instruct"! We have to be professional and open to experiance, but we are still the guardian's of standards and safety. Again you did great job glad all was safe and learned.