Fatally Shot In Chest - Still Fights For Awhile

[S&W645]

An excellent overview of the subject, with some rather startling facts, as well as reinforcement of many things I've lived and taught for a long time. 1st, have a gun. Any gun is better than none. 2nd, hit your target. A solid hit with a .22 is far more effective than a miss with anything. 3rd, carry the largest caliber you can reliably control and shoot well, AND will spend time training with.

Link Removed
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
Conclusion

This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached at [email protected]

There is one very important factor he left out. Number of rounds actually fired to get the numbers of hits needed.

 

[dmaxx3500]

were was it nessary to shoot this guy?

 

[Shootinjh]

Yet another example of a government agent shooting a citizen. See the online movie Innocents Betrayed for more details...

 

[tpd223]

Shotgun? I don't see that.

It's obviously a long-gun, but the wound appears to be a single hole, not a collection of pellet wounds. I was wondering about earlier comments that it was a 9mm, never heard of a 9mm rifle. But whatever caliber it was, looks like a rifle to me, not a shotgun.

It is CLEARLY a pump shotgun being discharged.

Cop/mil guy was using BEAN BAG ammunition from that shotgun. Note that lack of muzzle blast and recoil, these are characteristics of bean bag ammo.

I have been a less-lethal munitions instructor under three different systems for over 20 years, I also have extensive experience in using these systems in the field.

 

[tpd223]

You realize this was South Africa and not the US, right?

 

[tpd223]

Many police forces are shedding the 9mm too. The reason the .45ACP 1911 is around is the .38 was found not to work on drugged out Filipinos. It has to get relearned by each generation. 9mm was adopted for most military units over protests and only because the other militaries of NATO were using it. Those that needed it, kept the .45s. WV ordered 750 new S&W .45s for their State Troopers last year to replace 9s.

The Moros? Seriously? The following century of wound ballistic research, war time experience, medical research, and other scientific and operational experience and you are bringing up the Moro BS?

FYI, the Moros didn't drop any faster when shot with vastly more powerful bullet like those launched from the 30-40 Krag. Several anecdotes tell of the poor "stopping power" also displayed by the .45s revlovers that were used as a stop-gap.

Fanatics are by definition hard to stop.

You'd be surprised at how many departments are going back to the 9mm as a service round after having issues with larger calibers, including guns that break or are unreliable.

Latest I know is Wichita KS PD.


BTW that WV chose to continue with an out of date legacy DA/SA .45 pistol that is no longer currently standard make by S&W and made only to special order, a pistol that is overweight, hard to shoot well, too damn big for smaller men and women to handle, high maintenance, and low capacity, in no way makes choosing such a pistol a good idea.
Their firearms program is obviously stuck in the 1980s.

 

[tpd223]

.45acp 24/7, 365. 230gr to the chest...or two will end the fight. LE agencies across the country are going exclusively to this round. And for good reason.

Your entire post is just full of wrong.

Two rounds of anything, especially a hand gun round, are in no way guaranteed to end a fight. I know of several 7-9 round events where .45s failed to stop the bad guy quickly.

LE agencies across the country ARE NOT going wholesale to the .45, your information is incorrect. The trend for many years has been to the .40, and that will likely be the police caliber of choice for many years.
You would be surprised at how many departments have gone back to the 9mm as a duty round.

All of the modern construction service caliber handgun bullets work about the same if you get good hits, none of them work if you don't.

 

[mistergus75]

It is CLEARLY a pump shotgun being discharged.

Cop/mil guy was using BEAN BAG ammunition from that shotgun. Note that lack of muzzle blast and recoil, these are characteristics of bean bag ammo.

I have been a less-lethal munitions instructor under three different systems for over 20 years, I also have extensive experience in using these systems in the field.

Very interesting.

Is this kind of ammo generally considered non-lethal? Does that explain the quickness with which it was used against this man?

What impact is this type of ammo generally expected to produce?

 

[macmanjim]

Very interesting.

Is this kind of ammo generally considered non-lethal? Does that explain the quickness with which it was used against this man?

What impact is this type of ammo generally expected to produce?

We had an incident in Iowa where a Sheriff used a barricade round to shoot a person that was threatening to kill themselves. The round is not authorized by the department and he was never sanctioned for it. He hit the person in the neck at 40'. He says he was aiming for the stomach. Right. The suicidal person was killed.

​

 

[S&W645]

The Moros? Seriously? The following century of wound ballistic research, war time experience, medical research, and other scientific and operational experience and you are bringing up the Moro BS?

FYI, the Moros didn't drop any faster when shot with vastly more powerful bullet like those launched from the 30-40 Krag. Several anecdotes tell of the poor "stopping power" also displayed by the .45s revlovers that were used as a stop-gap.

Fanatics are by definition hard to stop.

You'd be surprised at how many departments are going back to the 9mm as a service round after having issues with larger calibers, including guns that break or are unreliable.

Latest I know is Wichita KS PD.


BTW that WV chose to continue with an out of date legacy DA/SA .45 pistol that is no longer currently standard make by S&W and made only to special order, a pistol that is overweight, hard to shoot well, too damn big for smaller men and women to handle, high maintenance, and low capacity, in no way makes choosing such a pistol a good idea.
Their firearms program is obviously stuck in the 1980s.

19 rounds of 9mm and 2 12 ga shotgun rounds to stop a drug crazed perp says 9mm is not a good choice.

And as to your last statements, the S&W that they picked is a decendant of the S&W 645. Small policemen and women might say there is a problem with selection of officers vs the gun itself. Sorry but I'm not going to be PC on this but do PDs really need to lower standards to make things possible for people who really shouldn't be cops, cops? High maintenance? What maintenance? No bigger problem than any .45 will need. And a 9mm should get the same maintenance.

 

[S&W645]

Your entire post is just full of wrong.

Two rounds of anything, especially a hand gun round, are in no way guaranteed to end a fight. I know of several 7-9 round events where .45s failed to stop the bad guy quickly.

LE agencies across the country ARE NOT going wholesale to the .45, your information is incorrect. The trend for many years has been to the .40, and that will likely be the police caliber of choice for many years.
You would be surprised at how many departments have gone back to the 9mm as a duty round.

All of the modern construction service caliber handgun bullets work about the same if you get good hits, none of them work if you don't.

Those that switched to .40 are switching again. Some went bigger. A few went to the 9mm. .40 has more felt recoil due to loading and weight of guns which just about matches the 9mm. Faster heavier round in the same weight gun equals more felt recoil.

And balistics have proved in ball rounds, the .45 exits 31"+ of ballistics gel while the 9mm did not. Hollow points showed the .45 went an inch further and put more ft/lbs of force into the target than the 9mms did.

Pig carcass testing has shown the 9mm to exit with less damage than a .45ACP.

 

[localgirl]

I got this here chart with pictures of rounds in ballistic gel--everything from 9 mm to .45, with various bullet weights, all penetrating over 12 inches, with varying degrees of entry and exit damage.

Now when on God's Green Earth am I ever going to need anything that drills more than 12 inches through a human body?

 

[macmanjim]

I got this here chart with pictures of rounds in ballistic gel--everything from 9 mm to .45, with various bullet weights, all penetrating over 12 inches, with varying degrees of entry and exit damage.

Now when on God's Green Earth am I ever going to need anything that drills more than 12 inches through a human body?

That's assuming ballistic gelatin is just like a human body.

​

 

[S&W645]

I got this here chart with pictures of rounds in ballistic gel--everything from 9 mm to .45, with various bullet weights, all penetrating over 12 inches, with varying degrees of entry and exit damage.

Now when on God's Green Earth am I ever going to need anything that drills more than 12 inches through a human body?

Many times the rounds have to go thru something else before they get to a BG. And with hollow points, they also have to get thru clothes and expand properly to work. Ballistics gel is just a test but watch videos of the different rounds and the impact they have.

 

[S&W645]

That's assuming ballistic gelatin is just like a human body.

​

That is why the pig carcass tests are done. Balistics gel is soft part of the body but not the bones.

 

[localgirl]

I think the point is, every caliber performed nearly the same under the same conditions. There's no way to tell how they will perform in the real world of bones and blood and guts.

It's your choice, man. Carry what you're comfortable with.

 

[tpd223]

Your information is inaccurate as to wound ballistics.

Your assertion that PDs are switching to the .45 is just plain wrong.

I am a police firearms instructor for my agency, I have been the primary guy running a program for 350 shooters for several years. I also instruct regionally and network with FIs from a wide variety of agencies through various methods, including as a member of IALEFI and the NTOA.

There is no wholesale move to the .45

 

[tpd223]

Many times the rounds have to go thru something else before they get to a BG. And with hollow points, they also have to get thru clothes and expand properly to work. Ballistics gel is just a test but watch videos of the different rounds and the impact they have.

Ballistic gelatin testing to the FBI standard has proven to be THE very best indicators of wounding potential yet developed. These tests are more than just slightly proven by street experience, they are very, very well documented.

 

[tpd223]

And your following post is totally full of BS.

9mm ball, just as one example, routinely penetrates more on people and in gelatin that .45 ball ammo.

 

[tpd223]

Very interesting.

Is this kind of ammo generally considered non-lethal? Does that explain the quickness with which it was used against this man?

What impact is this type of ammo generally expected to produce?

It is termed "less-lethal" for a reason. These rounds can be lethal, when misused. Shoot someone in the chest at very close range, as in this case, and you can have a penetrating wound, or broken ribs that puncture a lung.

When used at a proper target area like the upper thigh they produce blunt trauma much like a strike with a baton.