Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

[Bikenut]

If you want to strict about it then since the no-gun policy itself is not a law...

But we weren't having a legal discussion for the legal definition to then apply.

Nice try, though.

Doesn't have to be a law. Did you miss this part of the definition of civil disobedience?


Link Removed

Civil Disobedience

A symbolic, non-violent violation of the law, done deliberately in protest against some form of perceived injustice.
-snip-

Oh wait... there is still that small matter of trespass law which means those who ... sneak...their guns in where there is a no guns policy are violating trespass law. Don't forget the violation happens by being on/in private property without permission NOT when asked to leave. Asked to leave means you were caught on/in private property without permission (trespassing).

But then you already know you are violating the law because you won't .. sneak... you gun in where you know you will get caught.

Originally Posted by Reba View Post
What do you do when you need to enter a building that requires going thru a metal detector?

Leave the gun in the car, of course. Why do you ask?

So much for civil disobedience....
Nice try but still a fail.

 

[Blueshell]

Doesn't have to be a law.

Your definition says:

A symbolic, non-violent violation of the law...

Oh wait... there is still that small matter of trespass law which means those who ... sneak...their guns in where there is a no guns policy are violating trespass law.

It's not trespass if you don't verbaly tell me to leave

And in states where signs have force of law, it's not trespass if you fail to file a complaint with the police because,as the property owner, you can waive the prohibition selectively. If you don't complain, you allowed it.

If you don't know, then you don't complain, so you allowed it.

If you don't serch everyone via metal detectors and security, then you don't know and don't complain and so allow it.

No metal detectors = you allow it. You post your sign and then waive the prohibition.

Why bother with the sign in the first place?

 

[corneileous]

If you don't serch everyone via metal detectors and security, then you don't know and don't complain and so allow it.

No metal detectors = you allow it. You post your sign and then waive the prohibition.

Why bother with the sign in the first place?

Exactly. Again.

If places don't take real, fool-proof measures to keep ALL guns out of their establishments, why bother having a sign in the first place? Sure, there will always be people who will abide by the goofy arse sign and secure their gun in their vehicle just the same as violent people who love to rob people at gun point will continue to say eff-you to that same sign and walk right on in.





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[Blueshell]

Exactly. Again.

If places don't take real, fool-proof measures to keep ALL guns out of their establishments, why bother having a sign in the first place? Sure, there will always be people who will abide by the goofy arse sign and secure their gun in their vehicle just the same as violent people who love to rob people at gun point will continue to say eff-you to that same sign and walk right on in.





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I like how Bikenut expects me to enforce his policy as if I'm his employee.

 

[Bikenut]

Your definition says:




It's not trespass if you don't verbaly tell me to leave

And in states where signs have force of law, it's not trespass if you fail to file a complaint with the police because,as the property owner, you can waive the prohibition selectively. If you don't complain, you allowed it.

If you don't know, then you don't complain, so you allowed it.

If you don't serch everyone via metal detectors and security, then you don't know and don't complain and so allow it.

No metal detectors = you allow it. You post your sign and then waive the prohibition.

Why bother with the sign in the first place?

The act of trespass is being on/in private property without permission. Being asked to leave is getting caught already in the act.

If, as you say, by my not knowing you are... sneaking... your gun in then I am approving then why do you bother to ... sneak... you gun in? If you were engaging in civil disobedience or if you truly believed your right to bear arms trumps my right to deny you entry to my property why do you feel it necessary to ... sneak... you gun in? Why not have the courage to make sure I know you are violating my no guns rule and even tell me your right to bear arms trumps my private property right? After all... if you are right and I am wrong why are you ... sneaking?

If I have a no guns rule and/or sign then I am informing all and sundry that I do not allow carrying a gun on/in my property. The fact that someone chooses to ... sneak.. their gun in anyway doesn't mean I am allowing it because I don't know about it. It means the.... sneaker... is very aware of my private property right to choose who is, and who is not, allowed to use/be in my property and is afraid of being caught.

 

[Blueshell]

The act of trespass is being on/in private property without permission. Being asked to leave is getting caught already in the act.

If, as you say, by my not knowing you are... sneaking... your gun in then I am approving then why do you bother to ... sneak... you gun in? If you were engaging in civil disobedience or if you truly believed your right to bear arms trumps my right to deny you entry to my property why do you feel it necessary to ... sneak... you gun in? Why not have the courage to make sure I know you are violating my no guns rule and even tell me your right to bear arms trumps my private property right? After all... if you are right and I am wrong why are you ... sneaking?

If I have a no guns rule and/or sign then I am informing all and sundry that I do not allow carrying a gun on/in my property. The fact that someone chooses to ... sneak.. their gun in anyway doesn't mean I am allowing it because I don't know about it. It means the.... sneaker... is very aware of my private property right to choose who is, and who is not, allowed to use/be in my property and is afraid of being caught.

I have your permission, though. You waive your prohibition by not verbally asking me to leave. It's your property so you can post whatever sign you like, I just think it's silly of you to post a ban and immediately waive that ban for everyone.

But as I said it's your property so you can do as you like.

 

[Bikenut]

I like how Bikenut expects me to enforce his policy as if I'm his employee.

Incorrect. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of those who expect their ability to exercise their right to bear arms be respected as they... sneak... their guns into/onto property where they know the owner has exercised his private property right to deny entry to those who bear arms.

I am also pointing out that if you truly believed any of the excuses you have put forth to justify disrespecting the property owner's rights then you would man up and let the property owner know he can't stop you from carrying your gun in/on his property instead of .... sneaking... it in.

And .. sneaking.. your gun in so no one knows isn't any kind of civil disobedience but is just plain... sneaking.

It is the .. sneaking... that shows you know you are in the wrong. If you were in the right there would not be any need to.... sneak.

 

[Blueshell]

Incorrect. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of those who expect their ability to exercise their right to bear arms be respected as they... sneak... their guns into/onto property where they know the owner has exercised his private property right to deny entry to those who bear arms.

I am also pointing out that if you truly believed any of the excuses you have put forth to justify disrespecting the property owner's rights then you would man up and let the property owner know he can't stop you from carrying your gun in/on his property instead of .... sneaking... it in.

And .. sneaking.. your gun in so no one knows isn't any kind of civil disobedience but is just plain... sneaking.

It is the .. sneaking... that shows you know you are in the wrong. If you were in the right there would not be any need to.... sneak.

If you aren't screening invitees via metal detectors and security then you aren't exercising anything.

 

[Bikenut]

I have your permission, though. You waive your prohibition by not verbally asking me to leave. It's your property so you can post whatever sign you like, I just think it's silly of you to post a ban and immediately waive that ban for everyone.

But as I said it's your property so you can do as you like.

Now that is the most disturbing bit of mental masturbation I've ever seen. You are basically saying that if you don't get caught not having permission then you have permission.

 

[Bikenut]

If you aren't screening invitees via metal detectors and security then you aren't exercising anything.

If you are not obeying the rules/policies that give permission to enter then you are not an invitee since only those who obey the rules/policies are invited to enter.

 

[Blueshell]

Now that is the most disturbing bit of mental masturbation I've ever seen. You are basically saying that if you don't get caught not having permission then you have permission.

If you aren't screening invitees at the door like court house or TSA security then you are waiving your prohibition for each invitee you choose to not serch.

You are choosing to not enforce your rule.

As the property owner you have that right, I just think it's silly to keep the sign up.

 

[Blueshell]

If you are not obeying the rules/policies that give permission to enter then you are not an invitee since only those who obey the rules/policies are invited to enter.

I *am* obaying the rules, though. As the property owner you can selectivity waive your ban. You waive your ban to everyone you do not screen.

It's not big a deal, my sister's grocery store has a 'no pets' sign and they let her in with her dog all the time. My employer has 'absolutely no cell phones' signs up everywhere yet literaly everyone has their phone on them. Same thing.

 

[Bikenut]

If you aren't screening invitees at the door like court house or TSA security then you are waiving your prohibition for each invitee you choose to not serch.

You are choosing to not enforce your rule.

As the property owner you have that right, I just think it's silly to keep the sign up.

What you just said makes as much sense as thinking the property owner forced folks to... sneak ... their gun in by having a no guns rule/sign and it is the property owner's fault when someone is thrown out because they got caught ... sneaking... their gun in.

I am enforcing my no guns rule when I catch you... sneaking... your gun in and you know I will enforce my rule so you know it is necessary for you to... sneak... your gun in hoping I won't catch you.

 

[Blueshell]

What you just said makes as much sense as thinking the property owner forced folks to... sneak ... their gun in by having a no guns rule/sign and it is the property owner's fault when someone is thrown out because they got caught ... sneaking... their gun in.

I am enforcing my no guns rule when I catch you... sneaking... your gun in and you know I will enforce my rule so you know it is necessary for you to... sneak... your gun in hoping I won't catch you.

I put a jacket on because it's literaly snowing outside as I type this, and you think that's "sneaking".

Anyway you're not even trying to "catch" anyone. You're just letting everyone in.

That means I have permission.

 

[corneileous]

Of course I "sneak" my gun in. That's the whole point of "concealed carry".

But Bikenut, I'm curious. Are you a business owner with on of those........"Hey robber extraordinaires, come on in and rob me, none of us is carrying in here because of the sign on my door which should make it pretty easy for you to be in and out" signs or are you just arguing basically a moot point with Blueshell?

 

[corneileous]

I put a jacket on because it's literaly snowing outside as I type this, and you think that's "sneaking".

Anyway you're not even trying to "catch" anyone. You're just letting everyone in.

The only people he's gonna catch are th ones dumb enough to open carry on his store.


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[Blueshell]

The only people he's gonna catch are th ones dumb enough to open carry on his store.


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He's a big open carry guy, a throw-back to when concealed carry was considered something only criminals did.

 

[Blueshell]

What you just said makes as much sense as thinking the property owner forced folks to... sneak ... their gun in by having a no guns rule/sign and it is the property owner's fault when someone is thrown out because they got caught ... sneaking... their gun in.

I am enforcing my no guns rule when I catch you... sneaking... your gun in and you know I will enforce my rule so you know it is necessary for you to... sneak... your gun in hoping I won't catch you.

May as well use that sign as a door mat for all the good it does you.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by corneileous View Post
The only people he's gonna catch are th ones dumb enough to open carry on his store.


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He's a big open carry guy, a throw-back to when concealed carry was considered something only criminals did.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trespass

Trespass

Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person’s property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner’s legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership. Criminal charges, which range from violation to felony, may be brought against someone who interferes with another person’s legal property rights.
-snip-

A property owner who has a no guns rule/policy/sign is telling everyone that those individual members of the public who carry guns do not have his permission to be on/in his property.

Criminals break the law. Those who trespass break the law. Whether they get caught at it or not is immaterial since being punished for breaking the law is a different thing than breaking the law. Hence those who .. sneak... their guns into/onto private property without permission are breaking trespass law and are ............... criminals.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Blueshell View Post
I put a jacket on because it's literaly snowing outside as I type this, and you think that's "sneaking".

Anyway you're not even trying to "catch" anyone. You're just letting everyone in.

The only people he's gonna catch are th ones dumb enough to open carry on his store.


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Those who honestly believed the property owner has no right to deny entry to those who carry guns would have the integrity to stand up for their belief and open carry, or at least tell the owner they are carrying, so the property owner would know. But those who understand the property owner has the right to deny entry to those who carry guns but don't want to get caught will... sneak... their guns in.