Concealed carrier chosen as victim #1

[Firefighterchen]

Childish personal attacks make you seem so much smarter than if you actually answered simple questions. But I understand, questions are hard when you don't have any answers.

Unfortunately for you, nothing makes you seem smart.

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[FAS1]

Firefighterchen's point is that people who carry concealed seem to, historically, get attacked by bad guys at a higher rate than those who open carry do. For example, see this page:

Link Removed

The amount of people that carry concealed vs open might have something to do with it as well. Probably if you broke it down by user percentage of people that carry concealed vs open to the percentage of people being robbed I doubt that would be the case. Can't open carry here in TX, but there are people carrying concealed everywhere you go. I'm pretty sure FL and TX lead the Country by a big margin for CHL's.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

I'm pretty sure FL and TX lead the Country by a big margin for CHL's.

Aka: government permission slip.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Link Removed

Gee, you won't know you are dead? What happened to all the walls of text, borrowed without permission, from your rapture blogger?

 

[aacx22]

The amount of people that carry concealed vs open might have something to do with it as well. Probably if you broke it down by user percentage of people that carry concealed vs open to the percentage of people being robbed I doubt that would be the case. Can't open carry here in TX, but there are people carrying concealed everywhere you go. I'm pretty sure FL and TX lead the Country by a big margin for CHL's.

Good point too.

 

[Firefighterchen]

The amount of people that carry concealed vs open might have something to do with it as well. Probably if you broke it down by user percentage of people that carry concealed vs open to the percentage of people being robbed I doubt that would be the case. Can't open carry here in TX, but there are people carrying concealed everywhere you go. I'm pretty sure FL and TX lead the Country by a big margin for CHL's.

The math is still not in your favor.

how many concealed carriers do you think use their firearm in self defense every year?

Link Removed

Gee, you won't know you are dead? What happened to all the walls of text, borrowed without permission, from your rapture blogger?

Aww the atheist keeps talking about Christianity...That's like asking questions about guns from the mommies need action group.

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[FAS1]

The math is still not in your favor.

how many concealed carriers do you think use their firearm in self defense every year?

I really don't know, but have seen estimates that 2.5 million times a year a gun is used for self defense. Of that, 1.5 million are away from home. Not sure how that would break down in CCW and open carry, but my money would be on the CCW handgun for the vast majority of defensive gun uses away from home.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Atheist-man...when he's not so busy accusing the world of his short comings and plagiarism...he's out fighting bad guys...unfortunately he has no time for the latter since the former takes up 100% of his time...

Aww the atheist keeps talking about Christianity...That's like asking questions about guns from the mommies need action group.

Let me refresh your memory Mr. Hypocrite, you brought this into the thread way back in post #11, with your incessant name calling for the simple reason I have different view than your do, and it seems that it gets your goat so bad that it reduces your to school yard name calling.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I really don't know, but have seen estimates that 2.5 million times a year a gun is used for self defense. Of that, 1.5 million are away from home. Not sure how that would break down in CCW and open carry, but my money would be on the CCW handgun for the vast majority of defensive gun uses away from home.

I agree with your approximates. There are approximately 8 million concealed carriers. So 18.75% of concealed carriers had to defend themselves away from home every year.

Let's say there are 100,000 open carriers, and that's low balling it...we know of 5 possible encounters (2 very likely)...so 0.005% of open carriers had too over the last decade.

I personally will take the 0.005% chance over the 18.75% chance.

This doesn't account for how many times an openly carried firearm deterred an encounter. This also doesn't account for environment and presentation, both of which seem to be the actual failures of the two very likely open carriers being targeted.

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[XD40scinNC]

I really don't know, but have seen estimates that 2.5 million times a year a gun is used for self defense. Of that, 1.5 million are away from home. Not sure how that would break down in CCW and open carry, but my money would be on the CCW handgun for the vast majority of defensive gun uses away from home.

These figures were derived from a telephone survey done 21 years ago, with about 4800 responses, and everything else estimated from those responses. Link Removed

According to the study the 2.5 million figure is about right. They estimate between 2.1M and 2.5M per year.
Of that;

1.9M involve handguns
500,000 occur away from home.
​

That leaves 1.4M to 2.0M (handgun and long gun) that occur at home where carry in not a factor, which would include people that do not carry at all, but simply have a gun for home defense.

Nor can the number of permit holders be injected into this, as there is no data in the survey about permits. Of the 500K away from home, there is no data if they were being carried on the person, or merely in a vehicle, camper, boat, etc.

Based on 21 year old estimates, I don't see anyway to prove or disprove anything from this in regards to method of carry.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Let me refresh your memory Mr. Hypocrite, you brought this into the thread way back in post #11, with your incessant name calling for the simple reason I have different view than your do, and it seems that it gets your goat so bad that it reduces your to school yard name calling.

Just because you don't believe in atheist man as a superhero doesn't mean you need to pout about it.

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[XD40scinNC]

Just because you don't believe in atheist man as a superhero doesn't mean you need to pout about it.

Thank You, you merely proved my point, you disagree with my views, and it reduces you to a name calling, repeatedly.

 

[aacx22]

I agree with your approximates. There are approximately 8 million concealed carriers. So 18.75% of concealed carriers had to defend themselves away from home every year.

Let's say there are 100,000 open carriers, and that's low balling it...we know of 5 possible encounters (2 very likely)...so 0.005% of open carriers had too over the last decade.

I personally will take the 0.005% chance over the 18.75% chance.

This doesn't account for how many times an openly carried firearm deterred an encounter. This also doesn't account for environment and presentation, both of which seem to be the actual failures of the two very likely open carriers being targeted.

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Do we count the black kid holding a bb gun at walmart as an open carrier?

How about this guy who was shot by cops, apparently for being scary as he walked armed?
Link Removed

Or there was Eric Scott, open carried and someone called the cops and they shot him as he walked out of the store... gun in its holster.
PJ Media » Gunned Down in Vegas: What Really Happened to Erik Scott?

I think your numbers of open carriers getting attacked are low, but especially if you add in police and other mistaken identity to simple crime. I think those numbers count, because no one is going to be relieved to discover the person killing them is actually a "friendly".

 

[Firefighterchen]

Do we count the black kid holding a bb gun at walmart as an open carrier?

How about this guy who was shot by cops, apparently for being scary as he walked armed?
Link Removed

Or there was Eric Scott, open carried and someone called the cops and they shot him as he walked out of the store... gun in its holster.
PJ Media » Gunned Down in Vegas: What Really Happened to Erik Scott?

I think your numbers of open carriers getting attacked are low, but especially if you add in police and other mistaken identity to simple crime. I think those numbers count, because no one is going to be relieved to discover the person killing them is actually a "friendly".

Would you like me to redo the mag with the extra 3 scenarios? Do I need to add any more for concealed carriers that got screwed by the must inform states?

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[Firefighterchen]

Thank You, you merely proved my point, you disagree with my views, and it reduces you to a name calling, repeatedly.

Do you need a tissue for all those tears?

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[aacx22]

Would you like me to redo the mag with the extra 3 scenarios? Do I need to add any more for concealed carriers that got screwed by the must inform states?

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You can do anything you want, but so far nothing that I am seeing from either of the pro CC and pro OC camps is really conclusive. Anyone can find a stat they like and use it to extrapolate from it something that they want to believe, but usually it is not so simple.

 

[FAS1]

I agree with your approximates. There are approximately 8 million concealed carriers. So 18.75% of concealed carriers had to defend themselves away from home every year.

Let's say there are 100,000 open carriers, and that's low balling it...we know of 5 possible encounters (2 very likely)...so 0.005% of open carriers had too over the last decade.

I personally will take the 0.005% chance over the 18.75% chance.

This doesn't account for how many times an openly carried firearm deterred an encounter. This also doesn't account for environment and presentation, both of which seem to be the actual failures of the two very likely open carriers being targeted.

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"Additionally, the report notes that the number of concealed carry permit holders “is likely much higher than 11.1 million,” because numbers are not available for all statues that issue permits, such as New York. And four states and the vast majority of Montana don’t require residents to have a permit to carry concealed handguns within the state – most of those permits are issued to carry outside the state."
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Report: Number Of Concealed Carry Permits Surges As Violent Crime Rate Drops « CBS DC
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So, I would think 13 million is probably a more accurate number. Based on that, and 1.5 million uses away from home, your number drops substantially to 8.66%.
Out of the 1.5 million we don't really know how many were OC'ers since they don't break it down, but I am sure it is a small number even if there were 500,000 practicing OC.
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Just as you posted the story and many here realize the biggest issue wasn't him carrying concealed, it was being distracted and not paying attention to his surroundings like he should have. Same for this guy open carrying.
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Link Removed
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I don't really have a strong opinion for or against OC, just trying to see what the facts show. OC is not around me in TX. I have never seen someone OC in TX other than the rallies that we have all seen in the news and their dismal results in changing peoples opinions. I agree that we should all be able to OC if that's what we choose to. My CHL is just a tax and I hate paying it. If OC was available here, I probably would still CC most of the time. OC is sure a lot more comfortable though.

 

[BluesStringer]

"Additionally, the report notes that the number of concealed carry permit holders “is likely much higher than 11.1 million,” because numbers are not available for all statues that issue permits, such as New York. And four states and the vast majority of Montana don’t require residents to have a permit to carry concealed handguns within the state – most of those permits are issued to carry outside the state."
.
Report: Number Of Concealed Carry Permits Surges As Violent Crime Rate Drops « CBS DC
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So, I would think 13 million is probably a more accurate number. Based on that, and 1.5 million uses away from home, your number drops substantially to 8.66%.
Out of the 1.5 million we don't really know how many were OC'ers since they don't break it down, but I am sure it is a small number even if there were 500,000 practicing OC.
.
Just as you posted the story and many here realize the biggest issue wasn't him carrying concealed, it was being distracted and not paying attention to his surroundings like he should have. Same for this guy open carrying.
.
Link Removed
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I don't really have a strong opinion for or against OC, just trying to see what the facts show. OC is not around me in TX. I have never seen someone OC in TX other than the rallies that we have all seen in the news and their dismal results in changing peoples opinions. I agree that we should all be able to OC if that's what we choose to. My CHL is just a tax and I hate paying it. If OC was available here, I probably would still CC most of the time. OC is sure a lot more comfortable though.

I think you're missing something about this discussion, FAS1. The point of this thread is to counter another ridiculously anti-OC thread posted by a long-time CC-only advocate which you can read here: Open carrier robbed of pistol. That thread is based on a link to the local news station in Gresham, OR for the same story you just linked to above.

Chen can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe he posted this thread as a way to counter absurdity with absurdity, as that discussion went pretty much just like this one; people extrapolating idiotic conclusions based on that singular documented case of an OC'er being targeted because he was OC'ing.

Not everyone can OC legally. Not everyone can become comfortable OC'ing even if it's legal in their jurisdiction and they are inclined to attempt to weigh the pros and cons of the practice with an open mind. Not everyone is prepared to face down cowboy-cops who illegally detain them and demand to know why they're carrying openly, sometimes even escalating to tazing and/or arrest of a citizen engaging in perfectly legal activity. Those of us who OC on a regular basis have sussed out all those quandaries, and when we see OC being denigrated under false premises like Warbirds and others do and did in that linked thread, we try to counter the falsehoods. Sometimes the counter is polite and informative, and other times the regulars here who OC get frustrated with the same ol' BS being regurgitated by people who don't have a freakin' clue of what they're talking about, and it's argumentative, insulting, juvenile, what have you. If you peruse that other thread I think you'll find the impetus for this thread by reading this post and the others of Chen's in that thread. This thread is meant to illustrate the absurd with absurdity IMO. Like I said, Chen can correct me if I'm mistaken, but there is history on this forum that confirms that this thread wasn't created in a vacuum - it's an answer to strong and brainless opposition to OC for years around here.

Blues

 

[Firefighterchen]

I think you're missing something about this discussion, FAS1. The point of this thread is to counter another ridiculously anti-OC thread posted by a long-time CC-only advocate which you can read here: Open carrier robbed of pistol. That thread is based on a link to the local news station in Gresham, OR for the same story you just linked to above.

Chen can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe he posted this thread as a way to counter absurdity with absurdity, as that discussion went pretty much just like this one; people extrapolating idiotic conclusions based on that singular documented case of an OC'er being targeted because he was OC'ing.

Not everyone can OC legally. Not everyone can become comfortable OC'ing even if it's legal in their jurisdiction and they are inclined to attempt to weigh the pros and cons of the practice with an open mind. Not everyone is prepared to face down cowboy-cops who illegally detain them and demand to know why they're carrying openly, sometimes even escalating to tazing and/or arrest of a citizen engaging in perfectly legal activity. Those of us who OC on a regular basis have sussed out all those quandaries, and when we see OC being denigrated under false premises like Warbirds and others do and did in that linked thread, we try to counter the falsehoods. Sometimes the counter is polite and informative, and other times the regulars here who OC get frustrated with the same ol' BS being regurgitated by people who don't have a freakin' clue of what they're talking about, and it's argumentative, insulting, juvenile, what have you. If you peruse that other thread I think you'll find the impetus for this thread by reading this post and the others of Chen's in that thread. This thread is meant to illustrate the absurd with absurdity IMO. Like I said, Chen can correct me if I'm mistaken, but there is history on this forum that confirms that this thread wasn't created in a vacuum - it's an answer to strong and brainless opposition to OC for years around here.

Blues

So many concealed carrier stories to choose from...which one do I pick? ? ?

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[BluesStringer]

So many concealed carrier stories to choose from...which one do I pick? ? ?

Like you said in the post I just linked to, one a day Brother. That'll keep you busy to infinity and beyond!