Citizens Arrest?


caldwelljoe

New member
It an iffy thing to get involved with a dangerous situation

All of which is going to happen if you shoot! He was such a good little boy.

The relatives of the deceased will say:

"Oh yeah Judge, just the day before he committed those two rapes in the alley, and that armed robbery, he was turning his life around. Don't ya know. We demand financial satisfaction for the life of our dear departed relative." He died so young", they will say.

The meatballs on juries today, might actually "find for the plaintive". Hey, wait a minute. We are those meatballs, are we not?
 

Boomboy007

New member
Gold star for Ryan!

As far as "brandishing" goes here in FL, it depends on the circumstances. My neighbor's 3 dogs got loose and tried to attack me a few months ago. I was outside and my immediate reaction to 3 dogs running at me growling was to draw my pistol. I drew it and walked backwards into my door with it aimed at them, then closed the door. My neighbor saw this and called the police, who showed up and then called Animal Control and took his dogs. They took the liberty to inform me I did the right thing however next time I need to draw my weapon, to immediately call them when a free moment is reached.

I think that it was Ayoob that described the "race for the phone" drill. In essence, the first thing that you should do after utilizing your firearm to stop a threat, whether you fired a shot or not, is to call the police. This means immediately. It does not matter if you fired or simply "brandished" the gun; it does not matter if the BG actually assaulted or merely threatened; it does not matter if there were no witnesses or there were thirty witnesses; if you pull your gun out of its holster (or even display it in its holster in a state with no OC), then you need to call the police.

Let's look at an example:

You are walking late at night through a park with your dog (you worked late, and in the winter it gets dark early). You are approached by a man waving a knife saying "Give me your wallet or I am going to cut you!". You pull out Dieter (what, am I the only one who named his piece?) and let the BG look through all four inches of the barrel. You hear a sound similar to "Eeep!" and the BG runs away. You feel good because you did not let yourself be a victim, your dog feels good because he found a "good spot", and you didn't have to hurt anybody. Maybe that guy will give up his evil ways and get an honest job.

On the way out of the park you hear tires scream as two police cruisers screech to a halt. Four police officers jump out of their vehicles with weapons drawn and start yelling. Being compliant, you put your hands in the air. Now off-leash, your dog heads toward one of the officrs, tongue lolling and tail wagging. The officer dispatches him with two shots to the head. You discover that a felony takedown hurts even worse than it appears on television.

While you are standing, cuffed, beside a police cruiser, you notice another cruiser roll slowly by. Inside you see the BG crying, looking at you, and you see him say "That's the guy." Now mister BG has no knife, and you are a criminal who tried to accost/mug/shoot this innocent fellow. You become a felon (no more shooting of any kind for YOU), spend three years in prison, and come home to an empty home (the wife "met someone" while you were away), no job (they don't hire felons), and no dog. Somehow the dog hurts the worst. Oh well, at least you are still alive. Defenseless against the next attack, but alive.
:sad:

If you had bothered to call the cops (what do you mean you carry a handgun, a BUG, three spare magazines, but no cell phone?) they would know that there was a BG with a knife matching the description that you give, and when he tries to make his call they know right where to find him. Now you are a hero, your dog is alive, your wife still leaves you (if she would leave you while you were locked up unfairly then she was not a good partner anyway), you meet a supermodel at the dog park who loves the way your belly gently laps over your belt, and all is right with the world.
:wub:

As important as draw speed is, so too is speed dial.
 

rrc1962

New member
Here in TN, you have no "power of police" with a HCP. I'm only authorized to draw if my life is in imminent danger. Under no circumstances can I (nor would I want to) detain someone. I'll leave it at that.

That's also the way I understand it (here in TN) and I don't think it's right. Consider this. You come up on a murder scene after the deed is done, but the BG is still there. The BG never points a gun or knife at you and makes no threatening moves toward you and thus your life is not in immediate danger. Under the law, you have no right to brandish a weapon or detain the BG in any way. You could have drawn and fired to protect the victim if you had been there 2 minutes sooner.

Now the cops show up and you have to tell tell them that you were there minutes after it happened, you saw the BG with the murder weapon but because you were not threatened directly and because firing to protect the already dead victim probably wouldn't go over, you had to sit there with your loaded firearm holstered as you you watched the BG stroll away.

Now let the news people get a hold of that story. Once they find out you were legally armed and let the BG walk away, they will make you out to be a complete spineless tool. Personally, I don't think this would be a bad thing because it would give you and every gun supporter the chance to prove that the law does not protect the average citizen. The average citizen needs to understand that even though I have the tools and training to take down a perp on their behalf, the law prohibits me from doing so.
 

rrc1962

New member
Let's look at an example:

You are walking late at night through a park with your dog (you worked late, and in the winter it gets dark early). You are approached by a man waving a knife saying "Give me your wallet or I am going to cut you!". You pull out Dieter (what, am I the only one who named his piece?) and let the BG look through all four inches of the barrel. You hear a sound similar to "Eeep!" and the BG runs away. You feel good because you did not let yourself be a victim, your dog feels good because he found a "good spot", and you didn't have to hurt anybody. Maybe that guy will give up his evil ways and get an honest job.

On the way out of the park you hear tires scream as two police cruisers screech to a halt. Four police officers jump out of their vehicles with weapons drawn and start yelling. Being compliant, you put your hands in the air. Now off-leash, your dog heads toward one of the officrs, tongue lolling and tail wagging. The officer dispatches him with two shots to the head. You discover that a felony takedown hurts even worse than it appears on television.

Take this in a slightly different direction. Instead of exiting the park and finding the cops coming after you, they are taking down the same BG who is now standing beside the family of 4 he just murdered for their wallets. The phone call probably would have prevented that. Definitely make the call. No cop would run you in for brandishing a weapon and calling to report it. In a perfect world, we should be allowed by law to detain an unarmed BG until the cops get there.
 
W

wolfhunter

Guest
Let's look at an example:

You are walking late at night through a park with your dog (you worked late, and in the winter it gets dark early). You are approached by a man waving a knife saying "Give me your wallet or I am going to cut you!". You pull out Dieter (what, am I the only one who named his piece?) and let the BG look through all four inches of the barrel. You hear a sound similar to "Eeep!" and the BG runs away. You feel good because you did not let yourself be a victim, your dog feels good because he found a "good spot", and you didn't have to hurt anybody. Maybe that guy will give up his evil ways and get an honest job.

On the way out of the park you hear tires scream as two police cruisers screech to a halt. Four police officers jump out of their vehicles with weapons drawn and start yelling. Being compliant, you put your hands in the air. Now off-leash, your dog heads toward one of the officrs, tongue lolling and tail wagging. The officer dispatches him with two shots to the head. You discover that a felony takedown hurts even worse than it appears on television.

While you are standing, cuffed, beside a police cruiser, you notice another cruiser roll slowly by. Inside you see the BG crying, looking at you, and you see him say "That's the guy." Now mister BG has no knife, and you are a criminal who tried to accost/mug/shoot this innocent fellow. You become a felon (no more shooting of any kind for YOU), spend three years in prison, and come home to an empty home (the wife "met someone" while you were away), no job (they don't hire felons), and no dog. Somehow the dog hurts the worst. Oh well, at least you are still alive. Defenseless against the next attack, but alive.
:sad:

If you had bothered to call the cops (what do you mean you carry a handgun, a BUG, three spare magazines, but no cell phone?) they would know that there was a BG with a knife matching the description that you give, and when he tries to make his call they know right where to find him. Now you are a hero, your dog is alive, your wife still leaves you (if she would leave you while you were locked up unfairly then she was not a good partner anyway), you meet a supermodel at the dog park who loves the way your belly gently laps over your belt, and all is right with the world.
:wub:

As important as draw speed is, so too is speed dial.

A supermodel loves the way your belly gently laps over your belt? Sounds like the same kind of fantasy world where gun control actually prevents crime. But, this a good illustration. Notify the police anytime we need to draw a weapon.
 
W

wolfhunter

Guest
That's also the way I understand it (here in TN) and I don't think it's right. Consider this. You come up on a murder scene after the deed is done, but the BG is still there. The BG never points a gun or knife at you and makes no threatening moves toward you and thus your life is not in immediate danger. Under the law, you have no right to brandish a weapon or detain the BG in any way. You could have drawn and fired to protect the victim if you had been there 2 minutes sooner.

Now the cops show up and you have to tell tell them that you were there minutes after it happened, you saw the BG with the murder weapon but because you were not threatened directly and because firing to protect the already dead victim probably wouldn't go over, you had to sit there with your loaded firearm holstered as you you watched the BG stroll away.

Now let the news people get a hold of that story. Once they find out you were legally armed and let the BG walk away, they will make you out to be a complete spineless tool. Personally, I don't think this would be a bad thing because it would give you and every gun supporter the chance to prove that the law does not protect the average citizen. The average citizen needs to understand that even though I have the tools and training to take down a perp on their behalf, the law prohibits me from doing so.

Until you can check for pulses, they aren't dead, they are live victims and you draw your weapon to keep the BG from further torturing them.
 

Canis-Lupus

New member
Boomboy007,
U paint an all too real "no good deed goes unpunished" scenario that I sure can relate to. Basic packing 101, never leave home packing just a gun, permit and good intentions, a cell phone is a must, 911 the minute U have drawn and got things the way you want them, not how the BG will paint you as some gun-crazed vigilante who he/she swears was trying to rob them occifer! :cool:
Good post M8.

Canis-Lupus
 

Boomboy007

New member
You might be right, Wolfie, BUT.....

A supermodel loves the way your belly gently laps over your belt? Sounds like the same kind of fantasy world where gun control actually prevents crime. But, this a good illustration. Notify the police anytime we need to draw a weapon.

Hope does spring eternal!!!:man_in_love:
 

wickahoney

New member
Again I may be coming from a different point than many of you. As a retired LEo with 29 years at local, state and federal levels and graduation from the Idaho, Oregon Nevada and Federal Accademey plus several degrees in criminal justice I just don't worry about it that much.

The bottom line? I can do anything as a civilian as I could as a LEO other than arrest for PC and I have no immunity from criminal or civil redress if I guess wrong.

Is it a situation that requires/warrants deadly physical force? If so the parameters have been set. If the BG drops his gun do you let him walk away? From what? Murder? Nope Rape? Nope Assault/AWDW? Nope Petty theft? You betcha!!!

Again it's situational and up to you to understand that. The rules and what is socially acceptable is surely different in rural Idaho than say urban Florida.

Ross W Thomas
Owyhee County, ID

Oh, I usually have a pair of cuffs or at least a few cable ties in my hat bands. Bailing wire and a pair of pliers?
 

OldOwl

New member
May I suggest this book?

Link Removed

It covers this topic extensively.

Bottom line, be prepared to be treated as a criminal. Make sure it's worth it if you must defend yourself, and you only have a split second to decide. With awesome power comes awesome responsibility.
 

Austin

New member
One thing to consider is that you cannot get charged with "resisting a citizens arrest".

If you attempt to citizens arrest someone (think security guard) and they knock you out, it is just your bad luck.
 
For those wishing to play "Superman" in a domestic case (like a situation where you observe a male beating a female) be aware that once you restrained the male watch out for the female. In many cases, once you've got "her man" in cuffs, she'll attack you

Every case is different. Expect the unexpected.



gf
 
Experinced that several times.They absolutely HATE eachother until you're there. Then it's the whole the enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

I have to disagree with you on the "superman" claim. I work as a Security guard (boo's I hear them now lol) and I have gone to this situation far too many times to count (not your avg. guard or avg. company). Anywho, people want to help, they're just afraid to help. Afraid of being hurt, afraid of being arrested, afraid that the criminal has more rights than they do, afraid that people like you will say they were trying to play superman, although 20 years ago it was considered their civic duty.

It is because of our society that people are beat to death in crowded malls and sports arena's. Women are mugged on the way to their car, women are raped because the criminal knows MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT GET INVOLVED.

Never meant to imply that you were playing "superman". It was a warning to others who feel the need to patrol the streets with their brand new CC license/permit and their "CCW Badge". I've heard many cases where an untrained individual gets seriously injured when trying to "help" in a domestic situation. Keep in mind that you can help a great deal in a domestic sitiuation by simply asking if everyting is o.k. You don't necessarily have to "tackle" anyone. I've encountered several situations where a male and female were arguing and the male was acting out violently. From a safe distance I asked "Everything ok?" In one case the male said "f**k off or you're next." At that point I backed off and proceeded to dial 911. The guy said "who are you calling?" I told him "My sick grandmother." At that point, the female said something like "Oh s**t, I think he's calling the po-po." The couple hopped into their car and left. Another case I asked if everything was ok. At that point, the female ran towards me and said "He's trying to kill me." The guy freaked out and left, yelling at the lady "Don't come home b***h!" When the police arrived, they took my statement and assisted the lady. The lady stayed in contact with me and still sends me an email from time to time. That was the turning point in her life where she was able to get out of a very abusive relationship.

If you're properly trained, great, otherwise it's best that you be a good witness.



gf
 

rrc1962

New member
There was a story on TruTV or one of those other reality channels where a guy opened up on his wife with an AK47 in front of the divorce court. A CCW took a stand and shot at the guy not know he was wearing a vest. He returned fire and killed the CCW.

My general rule of thumb is that I only consider using deadly force if MY life is in danger. Other people have the same right to defend themselves as I do. It's their choice to exercise that right....or not. There is just too much at stake. Even if everything goes down perfectly, you could get sued by a passer by for causing undue emotional distress because they saw someone get shot.

I totally agree with GF. Just making it known to a BG that someone has seen him is many times enough to send him running. Most criminals are just looking for an easy score and witnesses present a problem.
 

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