Citizens Arrest?

[Canis-Lupus]

The worst ending to any CC situation is you have to discharge your weapon and kill or injure a perp. Think about that before you post: "It's the best ending!", or don't even post it as you may be a 24/7 human hunter and USA Carry posts may come back to haunt you! Even veteran cops go into some kind of psych debrief after a fatal shooting and that is what they get paid to do as a last resort. Their M8's brought many a weeping/shocky MP into the ER's I ran for the Army full of self-doubt and guilt-trips after a fatal take-down. The idea of CC is to have a pistol ready to defend yourself, others in danger, protect your property, and maybe even other's property too. Nes pas?
The best outcome of any bad situation is perp sticks hands up and surrenders to you. Now what? So you have called 911, or hoped someone has who sees this go down and you ain't 'packing' a cell-phone. Do you read them their Miranda rights/have them memorized? Restraining? How many of us carry cuffs with our pistols or even know how to safely clip them on in under say 5 seconds while still maintaining total control of the perp? How many would try this by themselves without first getting a passer-by to help? If you don't restrain the perp, he/she will probably attempt an escape, you then do not have much of a leg to stand on if your round went thru their backs 20 meters away, or do you in your state? In affecting restraint, have you 'inflicted bodily harm' (a struggle), have you 'battered' the perp or maybe 'kidnapped' him/her? Knowing all the local laws that protect you to have the right to carry a concealed weapon is IMHO just as important as knowing just what to do with an arrested perp legally that ends up in no charges being brought against you, and surrendering that perp to a LEO. Do 'citizen arrest' laws change state by state as much as CC ones do? I have arrested before, it has never gone off 100% well, and I am lucky I guess that I did not have charges brought against me or got myself killed. I know Miranda rights warning off by heart, as a 911 responder for almost 2 decades I heard the MP's or civilian LEO's say them enough times, plus I have a wallet card in case I go brain-dead! I know when WA state law says I can/should intervene and effect an arrest, but I wonder just how many of USA Carry patrons know how to arrest a say non-cooperative/drunk/methed-out unarmed/disarmed perp without bringing legal grief down upon themselves in their states. No legal problem if perp shoots or brings a gun to bear on you, the law says 'drop them with minimal force required', but in CA, you must I guess try to out-run the bullet!!!!!!! Any other Kalifornias out there I need to avoid? Please post them!
It sure would be nice if USA Carry had a section that covered all U.S. states and their best ways to effect a legal arrest, or which states may not even allow you to detain anyone for anything? If they have such laws, I don't know Jack about detaining a perp outside of my home state and what I would have to do in order to arrest a perp in say Idaho (30 miles away) vs. what I know I can do here in WA. Shooting or harming a perp who has surrendered unto you can turn into: assault, same with a deadly weapon, battery, attempted murder, manslaughter or worse. "But he reached for something...!" is no excuse unless the law finds a loaded pistol in dead perp's pocket, not a handkerchief or their asthma inhaler, ooops!!!
I know I get WAY verbose on USA Carry but I am trying to elicit legal answers to questions that protect me (and our patrons) from jail if I have to play 'custodian' of some ass-wipe until 5-OH arrives.
Anyone got a happy arrest ending story they want to share?

Canis-Lupus :blow:

 

[kwo51]

Will you shot if he tryies to leave?

 

[ronwill]

Shooting someone is a last resort. Should a BG lay down their weapon and start walking off, your job is done. If you try to detain them and they get hurt, guess where the liability will lay? All you can do at that point is wait for the police, describe the BG, what happened and let them handle it. If you must shoot, be absolutely certain and don't let anyone touch or remove evidence until the police arrive.

 

[Dewhitewolf]

Interesting thread. Many folks I know (personally as well as through forums like this) have made the decision to protect themselves, either with publicly carrying where legal, or just for home defense. Not many have thought it through as thoroughly as the question has been asked.

Use of force? That's a topic brought up every week. Citizen's arrest? That doesn't receive so much attention.

Here in NJ, the laws on citizen's arrest are really outdated. They assume that the arrester is a former police officer, current private investigator (licensed), or a bail recovery agent. The "citizen" must have personally witnessed an indictable offense (felony). The arrester must announce citizen's arrest to prevent a false imprisonment charge. The arrester must also have restraints (i.e. handcuffs), and must transport the arrestee to the nearest county jail (the law actually requires bringing him before a magistrate, but as I said, the laws are outdated). The arrester is 100% responsible for everything that happens to the arrestee during transport.

While the law does not require the arrester to be among the categories I listed earlier, it will not be prudent for an ordinary citizen to do this. First questions an ordinary citizen will be asked are "why didn't you call the police? what qualifications/credentials do you have to make an arrest?" Any physical resistance on the part of the arrestee that causes him injury is the liability of the arrester. It would clearly be a no win situation. That being said, who would want to effect a citizen's arrest?

Contrast that with Florida, where I have a concealed carry permit. Florida's law, at least as I understand it, only allows you to carry a firearm for personal protection, but not to use it. Use of a firearm, covering everything from exposing and brandishing up through firing, will very likely end up with a criminal charge to which you have to defend in court. As far as citizen's arrest, the law seems to allow for using a firearm to stop a crime in progress, but if the criminal flees, your protection under the law ceases (you are no longer stopping a crime in progress). It is still the responsibility of the armed citizen under such a circumstance to contact police immediately.

 

[ronwill]

Contrast that with Florida, where I have a concealed carry permit. Florida's law, at least as I understand it, only allows you to carry a firearm for personal protection, but not to use it. Use of a firearm, covering everything from exposing and brandishing up through firing, will very likely end up with a criminal charge to which you have to defend in court. As far as citizen's arrest, the law seems to allow for using a firearm to stop a crime in progress, but if the criminal flees, your protection under the law ceases (you are no longer stopping a crime in progress). It is still the responsibility of the armed citizen under such a circumstance to contact police immediately.

Florida's "No Duty To Retreat" law has changed that somewhat. However, shooting a BG is a step you take with some risk of prosecution. If I caught someone in the act of rape, child molestation, or had just murdered someone I may then try to detain them and willingly take the risk, even if they had laid down their weapon. In most other cases, if the BG laid down their weapon and started walking off, I would probably let them go. Many variables come into a decision and protection of life is the priority.

 

[Dewhitewolf]

The "stand your ground law" which I think you are referring to removes the requirement that you must attempt to flee, and only use force if you cannot flee or if life danger is immediate. Essentially it takes away the criminal's right to file a civil suit against you for assault. Prior to the law being passed, it was fairly common for criminals to sue their victims because their victims made no effort to retreat. The "stand your ground" law nullifies such nuisance tort suits.

It does not allow you to shoot a fleeing felon or otherwise effect a citizen's arrest. Once you have interrupted the crime, you are not protected should you use further force. If the criminal flees, let him go and contact police. As the publication that accompanies the CCW application states it, "you are not a freelance policeman or a good samaritan."

 

[ronwill]

The "stand your ground law" which I think you are referring to removes the requirement that you must attempt to flee, and only use force if you cannot flee or if life danger is immediate. Essentially it takes away the criminal's right to file a civil suit against you for assault. Prior to the law being passed, it was fairly common for criminals to sue their victims because their victims made no effort to retreat. The "stand your ground" law nullifies such nuisance tort suits.

It does not allow you to shoot a fleeing felon or otherwise effect a citizen's arrest. Once you have interrupted the crime, you are not protected should you use further force. If the criminal flees, let him go and contact police. As the publication that accompanies the CCW application states it, "you are not a freelance policeman or a good samaritan."

Sorry, I was using the wording of the law instead of the popular name. We have it here in Georgia also and, when referring to citizens arrests, you are correct. My reference was to your statement as follows: "Florida's law, at least as I understand it, only allows you to carry a firearm for personal protection, but not to use it. Use of a firearm, covering everything from exposing and brandishing up through firing, will very likely end up with a criminal charge to which you have to defend in court." In this case the "stand your ground law" allows use in protection of life or property.

 

[Dewhitewolf]

My whole point there is that the "stand your ground law" does not give you the right to arbitrarily brandish or fire the weapon. If you do either, you must still be prepared to be arrested and possibly charged. The "stand your ground law" protects you from civil liability. The burden to prove that you have defended yourself is still on YOU as far as criminal liability.

The "stand your ground law" does not entitle you to show force without cause. It simply removes the common law requirement of retreat before using force. If you expose, draw, or fire your weapon, the "stand your ground law" does not prevent you from being arrested or charged. The officers arriving at the scene may still arrest you. The investigating officers may still recommend a charge to the prosecutor. The prosecutor will determine whether you were within the protective boundaries of the law, or whether you violated those boundaries.

 

[ronwill]

My whole point there is that the "stand your ground law" does not give you the right to arbitrarily brandish or fire the weapon. If you do either, you must still be prepared to be arrested and possibly charged. The "stand your ground law" protects you from civil liability. The burden to prove that you have defended yourself is still on YOU as far as criminal liability.

The "stand your ground law" does not entitle you to show force without cause. It simply removes the common law requirement of retreat before using force. If you expose, draw, or fire your weapon, the "stand your ground law" does not prevent you from being arrested or charged. The officers arriving at the scene may still arrest you. The investigating officers may still recommend a charge to the prosecutor. The prosecutor will determine whether you were within the protective boundaries of the law, or whether you violated those boundaries.

I think we're arguing the same point, just in different directions. The law basically is as follows:

In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense.

I think we agree when no threat is present, you don't brandish your weapon. I guess I misunderstood your statement "Florida's law, at least as I understand it, only allows you to carry a firearm for personal protection, but not to use it."

 

[Canis-Lupus]

Keep posting to this thread USA Carry!

I AM glad that some concerned/thinking patrons are posting legal/rational posts to his thread.
Thanks! I'm learning with each post just how risky 'playing a cop' is/can be.
"Don't play unless you know all the rules son, or you risk getting hurt."
"Legally hurt or physically hurt officer?"
"Both, and finacially too! That's why we wear these funny blue uniforms!"
I'm kinda aghast that because I (may have) screwed-up the arrest part,
some say child molester or murderer walked free smiling at me, :1d71: because his P.D. got
him off for free (Miranda: If you can not afford an attorney, the court will appoint one for you at no cost...)
Yet (good intentions me) I may have to spend weeks in court defending my actions with my $500/hr attorney, makes me think I screwed up something bad!!! The other side of CC I guess.
Food for thought for those who would post/or hold this as their maxim:
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning, makes me think of all the perps I have whacked!"
Bloody-hell, what a mind-set!

Canis-Lupus

 

[PascalFleischman]

Here in TN, you have no "power of police" with a HCP. I'm only authorized to draw if my life is in imminent danger. Under no circumstances can I (nor would I want to) detain someone. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Brainchild]

Hm...

It depends.How do you define 'arrest'?If I,or one of my family was attacked and I did not kill the bas--um,perp,or I caught someone in the act of committing a heinous crime and,again,did not kill him in defense of my or someone els's life I would not try to affect an actual arrest.If I could convince him/her to lie face down on the ground(the danger of a .40S&W round going through,and subsequently shredding their brain might help with the convincing),I would hold them there untill the police arrive and let THEM arrest him/her.That's what I pay them for.But I would not,myself,arrest them.

 

[IheartTedNugent]

No need for a citizens arrest

I was unaware of this information regarding the "citizens arrest" policy; however, I would find it unnecissary to get involved in such an altercation with the help of law enforcement at the touch of a phone. A vigilant society is an unhappy society.

 

[kwo51]

At what point do we have responsability to help. I think Ron Will is right on. You may be the only thing between someone living and not.

 

[toreskha]

An arrest exposes you to too much liability and means that you get questioned that much more by lawyers. If it's a real self-defense situation, then treat it like one - draw your gun and fire. If it is not an actual life-or-death situation, then do not present your weapon. Talk your way out and go home. There's really no reason to make an arrest.

 

[toreskha]

"Touch of a phone" works fine if you live next door to the local cop-shop, but how long do you think it may take a county cop to respond to your casa in the middle of say nowhere New Mexico, 'next gas 150 miles' type of place. Maybe a nice game of Scrabble with the drifter who U found trying to jack your wheels who is now staring at the wrong end of your shooter, and some cold beer while you wait? Never mind, just shoot 'em I guess and bury the remains in the desert works where way-rural Protect & Serve is a 3 hour response after calling 911. :7: City thinking 101.

Canis-Lupus :y:

Bury? Desert...plenty of time...hey, that's a perfectly good mummy! Just get $100 in gauze and your kid will have an awesome project for school!

"And this...is our mummy! He's real! Don't worry, he won't come alive. Daddy already shot him and wrapped him up. Isn't it cool!?! Why did the teacher faint?" :icon_cheesygrin:

 

[IheartTedNugent]

"Touch of a phone" works fine if you live next door to the local cop-shop, but how long do you think it may take a county cop to respond to your casa in the middle of say nowhere New Mexico, 'next gas 150 miles' type of place. Maybe a nice game of Scrabble with the drifter who U found trying to jack your wheels who is now staring at the wrong end of your shooter, and some cold beer while you wait? Never mind, just shoot 'em I guess and bury the remains in the desert works where way-rural Protect & Serve is a 3 hour response after calling 911. :7: City thinking 101.

Canis-Lupus :y:

Okay...... I suppose if I am out in BFE and dont have a phone I or if I had to wait an extenssive amount of time for law enforcement to show up, yeah I would do something. I suppose I am thinking more logically, and what would actually happen in my "real world" situations.

 

[LiquidG]

Somebody's cheese has done slipped of their Cracker!

"Touch of a phone" works fine if you live next door to the local cop-shop, but how long do you think it may take a county cop to respond to your casa in the middle of say nowhere New Mexico, 'next gas 150 miles' type of place. Maybe a nice game of Scrabble with the drifter who U found trying to jack your wheels who is now staring at the wrong end of your shooter, and some cold beer while you wait? Never mind, just shoot 'em I guess and bury the remains in the desert works where way-rural Protect & Serve is a 3 hour response after calling 911. :7: City thinking 101.

Canis-Lupus :y:

??????

 

[festus]

Let's step back for a second

Canus Lupis...Please try to be more coherent with your sentences. I have a hard time reading the techni-color words and trying to make sense out of some of your euphemisms. I am not that much of a wordsmith so...spell it out in plain American uhhh... I mean English.

Liquid g and Teddy Nugget are both partially right. We need to be careful not to become VIGILANTES. We are to protect ourselves/families first and others IF the situation permits. I for one will not place myself in a potential lawsuit snare nor will I go spoiling for a fight. It just ain't worth it. I agree that we need to do what we can to help the police...but I will not place myself willingly in harms way to do it. IF I can safely subdue the BG then I might. But as for ratcheting the guy to a pole or knocking him cold...not happening. I can just see the lawsuit now for of all things unlawful imprisonment and possible unnecessary use of force. You are better off if there is only one side to the story!:22:

 

[lukem]

Hey guys, take it easy please. If you can't read his post then don't read it, please do start flaming each other.