Benefits of carrying concealed and having real priorities.

[Axeanda45]

Again you go off into making sensational claims....

Are you still avoiding and evading providing cites and/or links to support the claims you made in post #189?

By the way.... neither you, nor anyone else, has any right what so ever to be on/in private property even if that property is a business that is open to the public. All anyone has is the property owner's invitation (permission) contingent upon obeying any and all rules/policies concerning behavior (and carrying a gun IS a "behavior") while on/in said property. Failure to obey the rules/policies means the invitation (permission) is rescinded and the person is trespassing.

The trespass starts the moment the rule/policy is violated. Being asked to leave merely means the person was caught already in the act of being on/in the property without permission.

Again (yawn) again.... again..... (yawn)


You have been asked by not just me to provide proof that our rights exist no longer (disappear) once we pass a property line..... You answer that question beyond any doubt, I will answer yours....

 

[Bikenut]

Originally posted by Bikenut
Again you go off into making sensational claims....

Are you still avoiding and evading providing cites and/or links to support the claims you made in post #189?

By the way.... neither you, nor anyone else, has any right what so ever to be on/in private property even if that property is a business that is open to the public. All anyone has is the property owner's invitation (permission) contingent upon obeying any and all rules/policies concerning behavior (and carrying a gun IS a "behavior") while on/in said property. Failure to obey the rules/policies means the invitation (permission) is rescinded and the person is trespassing.

The trespass starts the moment the rule/policy is violated. Being asked to leave merely means the person was caught already in the act of being on/in the property without permission.

Again (yawn) again.... again..... (yawn)


You have been asked by not just me to provide proof that our rights exist no longer (disappear) once we pass a property line..... You answer that question beyond any doubt, I will answer yours....

More evading... more avoiding... more passing the buck.

If you have proof why would you not present it? You do have cites and/or links to prove what you said in post #189... correct?

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Please stick to the discussion...

Being "open to the public" does not change the fact that the property is privately owned and therefor is "private property"... correct? Actually NO, absolutely NOT correct... it is a BUSINESS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, therefore it is NOT private property, it is just owned by a private individual(s)

And does a business have the private property right to deny entry to individual members of the public who disobey the owner's no guns rule? Yes or no. NO, wow, this is an easy test!

Got cites and/or links that show a business "open to the public" is no longer "private property" and as such loses the property right to ban guns? Have cites/links showing these open to the public businesses have the RIGHT to deny others their RIGHTS?

Got any cites and/or links that prove a member of the public has a right to be on/in a businesses private property? Dont need them, the Business invited the public onto the property... if they dont want the PUBLIC there, make it a private members only business and make all the rules you want! see how easy this is?You are losing quite badly... do yourself a favor and stop commenting/posting on subjects you know nothing about (you keep proving it here, time after time).

You are losing quite badly... do yourself a favor and stop commenting/posting on subjects you know nothing about (you keep proving it here, time after time).

Or is this going to go the way that all discussions about private property rights seem to go with you where you provide no cites or links to prove your assertions yet you will declare yourself the "winner"? Oh wait...you already have...

-snip-
I win, you lose..... go hide in the corner and write more rules for your kingdom...... and I will keep on breaking the ones that get trumped by my right to life and to carry the tools to defend that life....

Ahhh... but... neither you nor anyone else has any right to be in my open to the public business kingdom...

 

[Axeanda45]

Rights exist no matter the place you happen to be standing... Many of those rights are spelled out in the BOR and such..... To make a statement that those rights no longer apply because someones rules now trump them is for lack of a better term, RETARDED........ If your theory is right, then rights would be called maybes or sometimers.. or how about partials? or somewheres but not allwheres?

Geesh, stop insisting that your little piece of earth (which happened to exist longgggggg before you did) now has natural laws and rights that no other place has....

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
-snip-
Being "open to the public" does not change the fact that the property is privately owned and therefor is "private property"... correct? Actually NO, absolutely NOT correct... it is a BUSINESS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, therefore it is NOT private property, it is just owned by a private individual(s)
-snip-

I'd really like to see cites and/or links to prove what you said above.....

 

[Axeanda45]

I'd really like to see cites and/or links to prove what you said above.....

easy, go look at:
1. A dictionary.. the word you are looking for is "business"... also look up " Private", you will notice they are in two different places and have two different definitions....
2. Business LAWS... there are multitudes of those, take your pick... read many of them too, so you stop bothering me for awhile...


Once done with that, tell us here (we are just dying to know) how many of those BUSINESS laws apply to a home/residence property.......

 

[telpinaro]

Oy vey...

"In brief, private property refers to the rights of owners to use their possessions which are enforceable against all nonowners–even the government."

Read more: Private Property and Government Under the Constitution : The Freeman : Foundation for Economic Education

"Private property is that which belongs to one or more persons. Public property is owned by a country, state, or political subdivision, such as a Municipal Corporation or a school district."

Link Removed

"Private property: Tangible and intangible things owned by individuals or firms over which their owners have exclusive and absolute legal rights, such as land, buildings, money, copyrights, patents, etc. Private property can be transferred only with its owner's consent, and by due process such as sale or gift."

Read more: Link Removed



There. Official definitions of "private property." Now continue.

 

[Axeanda45]

Reality is that which exists, even after you stop believing in it.....

Rights exist even if you dont believe they do, or think your rules trump them....

 

[Axeanda45]

Oy vey...

"In brief, private property refers to the rights of owners to use their possessions which are enforceable against all nonowners–even the government."

Read more: Private Property and Government Under the Constitution : The Freeman : Foundation for Economic Education

"Private property is that which belongs to one or more persons. Public property is owned by a country, state, or political subdivision, such as a Municipal Corporation or a school district."

Link Removed

"Private property: Tangible and intangible things owned by individuals or firms over which their owners have exclusive and absolute legal rights, such as land, buildings, money, copyrights, patents, etc. Private property can be transferred only with its owner's consent, and by due process such as sale or gift."

Read more: Link Removed



There. Official definitions of "private property." Now continue.

Continuing as requested!

Uhmmm, where does it say personal Rights of humans no longer exist or get trumped by rules on other peoples "private property"... I dont see it anywhere....

Oh, btw, your example only shows that a business can be privately owned, something I already stated.... Yet that is still called a Business property, correct? and "business property" falls under laws and regulations that "private property" does not... hmm, they must not be the same thing then.... just like I stated to begin with...

 

[telpinaro]

Continuing as requested!

Uhmmm, where does it say personal Rights of humans no longer exist or get trumped by rules on other peoples "private property"... I dont see it anywhere....

Oh, btw, your example only shows that a business can be privately owned, something I already stated....

lol I wasn't getting involved, I've just enjoyed reading. Both sides have points, and I don't particularly care. I was simply providing some definitions to work from. Though "absolute legal right" and "enforceable against all non-owners" might cover it.

Frankly, if they're posted, I won't go in. But that's just me.

 

[Bikenut]

easy, go look at:
1. A dictionary.. the word you are looking for is "business"... also look up " Private", you will notice they are in two different places and have two different definitions....
2. Business LAWS... there are multitudes of those, take your pick... read many of them too, so you stop bothering me for awhile...


Once done with that, tell us here (we are just dying to know) how many of those BUSINESS laws apply to a home/residence property.......

How about providing actual cites and/or links to the parts you think support your assertions instead of trying to keep me busy so I don't bother you with requests for cites and/or links...

You do the leg work to support and prove your assertion that I quoted below...

Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
-snip-
Being "open to the public" does not change the fact that the property is privately owned and therefor is "private property"... correct? Actually NO, absolutely NOT correct... it is a BUSINESS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, therefore it is NOT private property, it is just owned by a private individual(s)
-snip-

By the way:

Here is a law that affects private property businesses in Michigan:

Michigan Legislature - Section 750.552

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; exception; violation; penalty; "process server" defined.

Sec. 552.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
-snip-

and here is a Michigan attorney's opinion....

MCRGO Update | Ranger Firearm Instruction

Weekly MCRGO Update

Q: Is there a specific design for the no gun allowed sign? Does the law say where it has to be placed at a business, such as on the door or adjacent window leading into the business?

A: There are no specifications for “No Guns” or “No Weapons” signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of “Pistol Free Zones” (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas).

The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don’t mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material.
-snip-
If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.

This information is provided by The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC (Welcome to The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC) This answer is intended as general information and should not be relied upon as legal advice for any specific situation or case. The facts of each case vary and you should consult an attorney whenever you have specific questions.

Granted Mr. Dulan's opinion should not be taken as legal advice yet it is telling in how a Michigan attorney, an attorney who might be representing someone fighting a trespass charge, understands Michigan's trespass law.

Oh... and note that Mr. Dulan used the words "business invitee" ..........

In the interests of full disclosure I am not Mr. Dulan nor am I an attorney.

 

[Axeanda45]

How about providing actual cites and/or links to the parts you think support your assertions instead of trying to keep me busy so I don't bother you with requests for cites and/or links...

You do the leg work to support and prove your assertion that I quoted below...



By the way:

Here is a law that affects private property businesses in Michigan:

Michigan Legislature - Section 750.552

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; exception; violation; penalty; "process server" defined.

Sec. 552.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
-snip-

and here is a Michigan attorney's opinion....

MCRGO Update | Ranger Firearm Instruction

Weekly MCRGO Update

Q: Is there a specific design for the no gun allowed sign? Does the law say where it has to be placed at a business, such as on the door or adjacent window leading into the business?

A: There are no specifications for “No Guns” or “No Weapons” signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of “Pistol Free Zones” (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas).

The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don’t mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material.
-snip-
If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.

This information is provided by The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC (Welcome to The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC) This answer is intended as general information and should not be relied upon as legal advice for any specific situation or case. The facts of each case vary and you should consult an attorney whenever you have specific questions.

Granted Mr. Dulan's opinion should not be taken as legal advice yet it is telling in how a Michigan attorney, an attorney who might be representing someone fighting a trespass charge, understands Michigan's trespass law.

Oh... and note that Mr. Dulan used the words "business invitee" ..........

In the interests of full disclosure I am not Mr. Dulan nor am I an attorney.

Here you are again with the trespass crap..... this isnt about trespass... never was..... this is about RIGHTS..... Have I EVER said I wouldnt be guilty of trespass if I was armed somewhere where the owner didnt want me to be armed? NO!!! Why do you keep bringing this crap up when this is not what we are talking about??????

This is about our RIGHTS... the RIGHTS we have that exist no matter where we are.... end of story... Until you prove that a persons rights no longer exist once they walk onto your property, you dont have squat........

 

[Bikenut]

Continuing as requested!

Uhmmm, where does it say personal Rights of humans no longer exist or get trumped by rules on other peoples "private property"... I dont see it anywhere....

Oh, btw, your example only shows that a business can be privately owned, something I already stated.... Yet that is still called a Business property, correct? and "business property" falls under laws and regulations that "private property" does not... hmm, they must not be the same thing then.... just like I stated to begin with...

From telpinaro's excellent example of how to provide cites and/or links....

Link Removed

-snip-
Property may be further classified as either private or public. Private property is that which belongs to one or more persons. Public property is owned by a country, state, or political subdivision, such as a Municipal Corporation or a school district.

So... now that we know a business owned by one or more "persons" is private property ... I'd still like to see Axeanda45 provide cites and/or links to prove his assertion that:

Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
-snip-
Being "open to the public" does not change the fact that the property is privately owned and therefor is "private property"... correct? Actually NO, absolutely NOT correct... it is a BUSINESS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, therefore it is NOT private property, it is just owned by a private individual(s)
-snip-

As for any confusion about the difference between "private property as a home" and "private property as a business"

Businesses have discrimination laws that homes do not... yet both are still private property.

 

[Bikenut]

Here you are again with the trespass crap..... this isnt about trespass... never was..... this is about RIGHTS..... Have I EVER said I wouldnt be guilty of trespass if I was armed somewhere where the owner didnt want me to be armed? NO!!! Why do you keep bringing this crap up when this is not what we are talking about??????

This is about our RIGHTS... the RIGHTS we have that exist no matter where we are.... end of story... Until you prove that a persons rights no longer exist once they walk onto your property, you dont have squat........

You say a person's rights exist no matter where they are? Well my private property right to deny you entry says I can fix that simply by telling you where you are not allowed to be.

It goes like this...

I deny you entry...

You and everything you own... including your rights (your rights can only go where you do.. correct?)..has been denied entry.

Once denied entry you.. the whole you... your body... your clothing... everything in your pockets.. and even the rights you have... are not allowed on/in my property.

So how can you say you have the right to bear arms on my property if you yourself are not allowed to be on/in that property?

And how do I deny you that right? I use the trespass laws ..........

Now... to confuse things even more....

Those folks who obeyed my no guns rule and have my permission to enter still have their right to bear arms while on/in my property. They have simply voluntarily decided to not exercise that right in exchange for the privilege of being allowed on/in my property.

And the folks who disobeyed my rule by sneaking their gun in anyway do not have my permission to be there and are trespassing.

The thing is Axe... the private property right to deny entry really isn't about banning a right... but is about banning an individual, the person themselves, who disobeys the property owner's rules. And once the person is banned then everything that person has, including rights, is also banned because if the person isn't there then their rights aren't either.

And somehow, judging from your continued weak excuses as to why you sneak your gun in even to the point of avoiding metal detectors, I suspect you understand all of this only too well.

 

[Axeanda45]

I win...... you lose, you had multiple chances to prove my rights no longer exist when I am standing someplace that someone else owns..... You failed very miserably..... In fact, you were so scared to even attempt to prove it, you keep going to great lengths to change the subject every chance you get (trespass anyone?) or "its privately owned, but it is actually business property" so I guess that makes it ok to deny people their RIGHTS....


The ONLY time my rights will cease to exist is when I do......

Oh, btw..... that "IF" thing I wrote about (that you ignored) ..... it still exists... you know, where I say IF I am on a property...... not that I have the right to be there, just that I AM THERE..... guess what... my rights are still right there with me, no matter how much it drives you crazy or how many words you type to distract/change the subject, my rights are always with me wherever I go.. imagine that.......

 

[Firefighterchen]

I like what axe wrote, my property rights end at the soles of his feet. That's right, your Rights end at the soles of your feet, if those soles pass my property line and anyone in my family feels threatened, ALL your Rights are in jeopardy of being gone FOREVER because of my families Right to defend ourselves on our property.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Bikenut]

I win...... you lose, you had multiple chances to prove my rights no longer exist when I am standing someplace that someone else owns..... You failed very miserably..... In fact, you were so scared to even attempt to prove it, you keep going to great lengths to change the subject every chance you get (trespass anyone?) or "its privately owned, but it is actually business property" so I guess that makes it ok to deny people their RIGHTS....


The ONLY time my rights will cease to exist is when I do......

Oh, btw..... that "IF" thing I wrote about (that you ignored) ..... it still exists... you know, where I say IF I am on a property...... not that I have the right to be there, just that I AM THERE..... guess what... my rights are still right there with me, no matter how much it drives you crazy or how many words you type to distract/change the subject, my rights are always with me wherever I go.. imagine that.......

And still you offer no cites and/or links to support your assertion...

Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
-snip-
Being "open to the public" does not change the fact that the property is privately owned and therefor is "private property"... correct? Actually NO, absolutely NOT correct... it is a BUSINESS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, therefore it is NOT private property, it is just owned by a private individual(s)
-snip-

Got cites and/or links? Or just more insults and ridicule?

 

[Axeanda45]

I like what axe wrote, my property rights end at the soles of his feet. That's right, your Rights end at the soles of your feet, if those soles pass my property line and anyone in my family feels threatened, ALL your Rights are in jeopardy of being gone FOREVER because of my families Right to defend ourselves on our property.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Hey Bikenut.... this Quoted post by Firefighterchen is how you should have been responding to my position.... not with "trespass laws" and "property rights" as they ALL come from man, but from RIGHTS which come from GOD, or, if you dont believe that, from just the fact you are alive....



On actual PRIVATE property, like a farm or house, I would expect a much higher/stronger response vs at a business where the public is invited.....

Thank you Firefighter...

 

[Firefighterchen]

Hey Bikenut.... this Quoted post by Firefighterchen is how you should have been responding to my position.... not with "trespass laws" and "property rights" as they ALL come from man, but from RIGHTS which come from GOD, or, if you dont believe that, from just the fact you are alive....



On actual PRIVATE property, like a farm or house, I would expect a much higher/stronger response vs at a business where the public is invited.....

Thank you Firefighter...

Well...not to start more arguments...but at my business you can expect the same mentality. Not to speak for bikenut, but the mentality we share (I believe), is not anti 2nd, or anti firearm, but pro Private property Rights. We believe we hold the power on our properties to deny entry up to forcefully stopping anyone, for any reason (not just firearms).

For instance, your pink panties example. I do think that can sexually tempt my brothers or in a few years after my soon to be born son grows up, and such I should be allowed to deny access to someone wearing them.

My patience is running thin with the general population, I'm beginning to think if a situation ever occurs that someone will be required to leave my property, I'll call the cops to let them forcefully remove the person. They willfully, maybe knowingly, maybe ignorantly (though ignorance is no excuse), passed my trespass sign marking my property line, and the courtesy of "asking" (requiring them to leave) will not be there.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Axeanda45]

The right to deny entry has never been argued against by me, in fact I have stated the fact that you do have that RIGHT many times..... I have simply (but obviously not very clearly) stated that IF a person is on your property, they have the same rights as they would anywhere else. IF a person ignores your rules and comes onto your property anyway, they still have the same rights as they do on the other side of that property line. You cannot kill them (deny them their right to life) simply for BEING on your property against your wishes (or for having something you dont like in their pockets)... you have every right, if not the duty (to enforce your rules) to tell them to leave..... but you cannot morally or legally deny them their rights....

 

[Firefighterchen]

You cannot kill them (deny them their right to life) simply for BEING on your property against your wishes (or for having something you dont like in their pockets)...

Too bad I surely can kill anyone on any of my properties just for being there. The law will back up MY Rights. So, say again how your Rights trump mine on MY property? They don't.

Ultimately, if I die, the one who had no legal right to be on my property goes to jail because their Right to carry an arm and defend themselves is gone on my property.

If I survive, I will have a castle doctrine and/or stand your ground law, depending where I am at, defending my Right as a property owner.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app