Yes, of course.... if you want to keep your rights, then don't exercise them. But at least you have them. Kind of like my first haircut in Army basic training. The barber asked me if I wanted to keep my sideburns. I said, "SURE!" So he held an envelope to the side of my head, buzzed my sideburns with the clippers, closed the envelope and said here you go, here's your sideburns.
Attitude of Some Police re: Open Carry
- Thread starter wuzfuz
- Start date
I dont see it quite like that. If for some reason LE thought something was up and wanted to see my ID and it had nothing to do with my side arm (left it at home that day for instance) Whats the issue with showing it to them? There are other ways to excersize your rights with out being detained to argue the issue. Its not going to change their mind. Need to change their attitudes but the fact is there are so damn many criminal and nut jobs out there.
Im a business owner that lives in a smaller community on the fringe of mass expansion, we dont even have our own police dept. County Sheriff services us. 1 grocery store. Lots of the same people see you in different places. Feed store, restraunt, local park, hardware store, farmers market... How you conduct yourself makes all the difference! So far I have never been questioned about my side arm.
Im a business owner that lives in a smaller community on the fringe of mass expansion, we dont even have our own police dept. County Sheriff services us. 1 grocery store. Lots of the same people see you in different places. Feed store, restraunt, local park, hardware store, farmers market... How you conduct yourself makes all the difference! So far I have never been questioned about my side arm.
Deanimator
New member
The "issue" is that bullying NEVER abates through submission. It always ESCALATES. Have you ever seen a bully STOP being a bully when he could get EVERYTHING he wanted by BEING a bully?
When you CONSENT to unlawful demands by LEOs, you encourage that behavior and invite it to escalate.
Don't fight with the police, but don't EVER CONSENT to ANYTHING to which they are not entitled BY LAW.
Such as?
When you CONSENT to an illegal warrantless search, it automatically becomes a LEGAL warrantless search. The same with producing ID when the police have no legal authority to compel you to do so.
If the cop wants to falsely arrest me for not doing something I have no duty to do, that's perfectly alright by me. His arrest report is a signed confession of both a crime and a civil tort against me... as well as failure to properly supervise him on the part of the department. I don't view throwing money in my face as much of a punishment.
Does it matter how the police conduct themselves?
CDWilliams05
New member
Since I am from SC, the only place that I can Open Carry is on my own property. I can say that my one run in with Local Law, was professional and my rights were respected.
My Bro-in-law and I were out on Property that belong to us, and we were enjoying a day of Plinking. A farmer hearing the large amount gunfired called the sherrifs dept because he was worried that we were shooting in the direction of his Cows. I had my XDM on my hip, I was practicing drawing from holster, acquiring and two rapid shots. My BIL was sighting in his rifle. They pulled up with Lights going, and "Chirping." We stopped firing and holstered and shouldered our firearms and the sherrif's deputies got out of their car, and approached hands OFF their sidearms, and spoke very politely and started off with a "Good Morning Gentleman" and ended with a "Nice Firearms, Guys. Shoot Safe"
The deputies just wanted to report back to the farmer letting him know that we were not shooting in such a way to put his cows in danger. I know they all can't be that great, and smooth. But there are Law Enforcement Officers that respect individuals rights and at least put on the outward appearance of being comfortable around a law abiding citizen, with a firearm. Even though they are always ready on the inside.
My Bro-in-law and I were out on Property that belong to us, and we were enjoying a day of Plinking. A farmer hearing the large amount gunfired called the sherrifs dept because he was worried that we were shooting in the direction of his Cows. I had my XDM on my hip, I was practicing drawing from holster, acquiring and two rapid shots. My BIL was sighting in his rifle. They pulled up with Lights going, and "Chirping." We stopped firing and holstered and shouldered our firearms and the sherrif's deputies got out of their car, and approached hands OFF their sidearms, and spoke very politely and started off with a "Good Morning Gentleman" and ended with a "Nice Firearms, Guys. Shoot Safe"
The deputies just wanted to report back to the farmer letting him know that we were not shooting in such a way to put his cows in danger. I know they all can't be that great, and smooth. But there are Law Enforcement Officers that respect individuals rights and at least put on the outward appearance of being comfortable around a law abiding citizen, with a firearm. Even though they are always ready on the inside.
SGB
New member
So what's wrong with asking the Officer why he wishes to see your ID? The Officer should have no problem answering that question ................... or is it that you just don't want to question authority? Even if they're wrong in asking?
Lakeland Man
New member
Some people here have suggested that not complying with the request (demand) for an ID is the way to go. I'm not going to dispute that but I would add one thought.
If you are trying to educate the LEO that what he is doing is wrong or unlawful, then this is the wrong way to go about it. 99.9% of the people I arrested or ticketed claimed that they were innocent, or that I couldn't arrest them, or that what they were doing was legal. When you claim that they are violating your rights or that their demand is unlawful, all they hear is blah, blah, blah.
If you really want to get your point across, then comply, let the cop have his moment in the sun, and then file a formal complaint with the department. If this were to happen enough times, believe me...the LEO's superiors will come down on him/her like a ton of bricks. The last thing they want are MORE citizen complaints, especially when the citizen is right.
I'm not saying that you HAVE to do this, but it is an option to consider. Your actions should be dictated by the situation and by your own personal preferences.
If you are trying to educate the LEO that what he is doing is wrong or unlawful, then this is the wrong way to go about it. 99.9% of the people I arrested or ticketed claimed that they were innocent, or that I couldn't arrest them, or that what they were doing was legal. When you claim that they are violating your rights or that their demand is unlawful, all they hear is blah, blah, blah.
If you really want to get your point across, then comply, let the cop have his moment in the sun, and then file a formal complaint with the department. If this were to happen enough times, believe me...the LEO's superiors will come down on him/her like a ton of bricks. The last thing they want are MORE citizen complaints, especially when the citizen is right.
I'm not saying that you HAVE to do this, but it is an option to consider. Your actions should be dictated by the situation and by your own personal preferences.
Never said there was anything wrong with asking why or that I wouldn't. There has to be a valid reason for the request. I wouldn't take kindly to being bothered by them in the first place regardless the topic. Im not the biggest fan of the cops. I'm not backing their actions by any means The lack of accountability I see in the local Big City cop shop is F'd up to say the least.
I also dont see the point in escalating the issue by refusal and arguing the point of seeing my id. Who cares if they know my name? It sure isnt worth getting arrested for.
Again, I agree there has to be a valid reason for the request. Back to the Original Post...
I live an hour way from where this incident occurred in a different county. This location is only a few miles up the road from where a guy gunned down 4 cops sitting in a coffee shop.... The area this Starbucks is located, isnt exactly a low crime area.
I agree with the OP that the LEO should apologize to the guy. Just walking in and standing in line does not constitute a threat. The officer was violating his 4A rights.
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I also dont see the point in escalating the issue by refusal and arguing the point of seeing my id. Who cares if they know my name? It sure isnt worth getting arrested for.
Again, I agree there has to be a valid reason for the request. Back to the Original Post...
I live an hour way from where this incident occurred in a different county. This location is only a few miles up the road from where a guy gunned down 4 cops sitting in a coffee shop.... The area this Starbucks is located, isnt exactly a low crime area.
I agree with the OP that the LEO should apologize to the guy. Just walking in and standing in line does not constitute a threat. The officer was violating his 4A rights.
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Deanimator
New member
There's a difference between complying and CONSENTING.
I'm NOT going to give a cop my ID where he's not entitled to have it. On the other hand, I'm not going to fight him to keep him from getting it. What I WILL do is make sure that my loud and clear refusal of CONSENT is recorded on my phone.
If you CONSENT, you have no BASIS for a complaint. If you comply under protest, your rights were forcibly violated and you upheld those rights during an unlawful violation of your person and property.
And once we get to unlawful hands on my person and property, we've gone WAY past complaints (although one will be filed pro forma), and entered deeply into the civil court system. At that point there's no turning back and no quarter asked or given.
wild eyed willy
New member
I have read many of your opinions both for and against complience and both camps make valid points, so it's hard to make the clear distinction of just where to be on this issue, so for now I'll just remain clearly on the fence, where I can support both views. Nothing like being wishy washy.....
I'm not an officer, but I think if I was, I would prefer to know if someone was carying a gun... Atleast if you can see it in plain sight, it takes the guess work out of the equation... If I can see the firearm I can plan for it... If I can't see one then I have to assume there is one just for my own safety.... I would rather know up front, so I am asking any of you Officers out there, don't you agree with this viewpoint?
I'm not an officer, but I think if I was, I would prefer to know if someone was carying a gun... Atleast if you can see it in plain sight, it takes the guess work out of the equation... If I can see the firearm I can plan for it... If I can't see one then I have to assume there is one just for my own safety.... I would rather know up front, so I am asking any of you Officers out there, don't you agree with this viewpoint?
Gordon Shumway
New member
Sir, you need to comprehend that this forum (as well as all others) is dominated by trolls and OUR opinions are only sources for them to mentally masturbate ad-hominem diatribes for their own self agrandizment.
SonoraRebel
Picture Rocks, Arizona
A LEO has no more cause to ask for my 'I.D.' because I'm carrying a properly holstered sidearm than they do 'cause I'm wearin'a purple hat. It doesn't meet 'Terry vs Ohio'... 'n there no RAS (Reasonable Articulated Suspicion) to do so. What you have in most cases is abuse if authority under color of law. (I was a cop with hundreds of felony arrests so trust me on this.) In many states... LEO's are inculturated/inculcated to fear guns along wih the rest of the general populace they're a product of. They'll associate gun with badge, uniform and authority 'n can't process much outside of that; no matter the 'law', even if they know it. If the mere sight of an armed citizen makes them fearful... they're in the wrong line of work. This is not a two-tgoerd society where only government authority and criminals carry guns. This kind'a thinking makes all the rest of us criminals. Such thinking even becomes law in places. Unconstitutional... but it's a reality.
Forinstance: I'm in a truckstop drinkin' coffee (armed). 'Cop comes to my table 'n asks for I.D.. 'Why?' "'Cause you have a gun." 'So?' "I want to know what you're up to..." 'OK... call your supervisor or I will. This is New Mexico, comprende? Not the Peoples Socialist Republic of wherever you came from. I'll remind you of the 4th and 14th Amendment and Art. II, § 6 of the New Mexico State Constitution as ratified in 1912." ('Same date as Arizona). Now... 'you still want'a pursue this harrasment... or let me finish my coffee in peace?' He turned... 'n walked out the door. Awhile later I paid up 'n left. I picked up the glint of a visibar on this car behind me in my rearview. 'Pretty sure it was him. He or 'it' followed me west on I-10 for awhile then turned off someplace. It's called 'Law Enforcement'... not opinion enforcement or curiousity satisfacation. Yeah... I carry openly... and I DEMAND to be left alone while doing so in the absence of any other 'suspicious' action. To all you LEO's 'n wanna-be's: It's a Right. (A real one.) Get used to it 'n get over it.
Forinstance: I'm in a truckstop drinkin' coffee (armed). 'Cop comes to my table 'n asks for I.D.. 'Why?' "'Cause you have a gun." 'So?' "I want to know what you're up to..." 'OK... call your supervisor or I will. This is New Mexico, comprende? Not the Peoples Socialist Republic of wherever you came from. I'll remind you of the 4th and 14th Amendment and Art. II, § 6 of the New Mexico State Constitution as ratified in 1912." ('Same date as Arizona). Now... 'you still want'a pursue this harrasment... or let me finish my coffee in peace?' He turned... 'n walked out the door. Awhile later I paid up 'n left. I picked up the glint of a visibar on this car behind me in my rearview. 'Pretty sure it was him. He or 'it' followed me west on I-10 for awhile then turned off someplace. It's called 'Law Enforcement'... not opinion enforcement or curiousity satisfacation. Yeah... I carry openly... and I DEMAND to be left alone while doing so in the absence of any other 'suspicious' action. To all you LEO's 'n wanna-be's: It's a Right. (A real one.) Get used to it 'n get over it.
Axeanda45
Banned
Hey gordy buddy..... Your have had your a$$ handed to you soooooooooooo many times on this forum, I am surprised you even bother.... No-one believes or agrees with your views (except maybe nogods) and if anyone on these forums is deserving of the title of a troll, it is you....
Gordon Shumway
New member
Thank you for your kind opinion.
Thank you also for volunteering and so eloquently confirming my point for everyone to see.
Gordon Shumway
New member
Link Removed
"A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July."
********
Hopefully after spending $10,000 for his court trial, Mr. Fiorino will be judged "not guilty" for legally open carrying his handgun in Philadelphia.
"A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July."
********
Hopefully after spending $10,000 for his court trial, Mr. Fiorino will be judged "not guilty" for legally open carrying his handgun in Philadelphia.
Big Gay Al
New member
Unless you live in a state where you must present ID on demand, it's a violation of your rights. The 4th amendment, says:
And the courts have already determined that simply carrying a firearm is not reasonable articulable suspicion for demanding identification.4th Amendment said:
Having said that, LEOs (and anyone else for that matter) are free to request your ID. And you're free to refuse. On the other hand, if you happen to look like someone they're after, they need to express that the reason they stopped you is NOT because you're packing heat.
Big Gay Al
New member
Equally hopefully, Mr. Fiorino will file a civil suit for the police violating his civil rights.
drewthegunut
andrew
i open carry all the time and i was arrested once while carrying a bag of mcdonalds home to my girlfriend. my gun was holstered and i conducted myself respectfully. the plaincholths officer however did not. i demanded to see his police issue photo id and he showed me his driver's license (what an idiot). he was swearing the whole time and was doing survaillance for a guy who looked nothing like me and then complainted that i almost blew his steakout... and to top it off he looked like a walrus... since it was my word against his (and even his report said i was open carrying on foot) and had an idiot public defender (she claimed you need a license just to own a gun anywhere in the us...) if i took my chances i would have ended up with an f4 so i plead to an m1 charge and got zero jail time, no fine, and no probation. i just lost my job because of it.
Big Gay Al
New member
I don't know about Ohio, but in many jurisdictions, you can still appeal a plea deal. I would have appealed that one, and gotten a better attorney. You should have contacted some of the many grass roots state organizations, I'd be willing to bet, one or more of them would have come up with a much more intelligent attorney who could have beat the charges.
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