Any company has the goal of making a profit. I would ask corporate to amend their policy first. If that produced no results then I would use all my contacts to make their policy known. They will either change or ignore the clatter. If it starts affecting their "bottom line" then they will change.
Asked to leave Kohl's for OC.
- Thread starter Beau
- Start date
Written correspondence is usually better than phone, as then you will have a their words in a media form where it makes it difficult to deny any statements made.
gf
Gordon Shumway
New member
Glock Fan
"A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor
AMEN
No doubt someone on this thread will demand that you prove that statement by citing several documented case results.
***********
General statements, to whom it may concern:
The simple reaction of wanting to cause the store negative publicity is an illogical reaction to the situation. That would only cause the store to resist AND cause the negative public to be even more negative towards guns. That is simple human psycology.
Ammo
Why does anyone need 40>52 rounds of ammunition on their person?
These people have seen so many movies that they "want"? to be in a fire fight.
I promise you that IF, that is IF you fire more than 6, you will probably be charged with the felony. Where did those bullets stop? Can you walk over and point to them?
Granted, concealed carry does require that you be prepared to reach in and draw your weapon, which takes a little time (practice),
but that is your advantage when the perp is NOT CONCENTRATING ON YOU, but doing other things. You are "one up on him".
The perp sees you open carrying. He has the time advantage, as he can pick his plan of action toward you. (Take your gun, shoot you first, etc.)
By open carrying you start out at a disadvantage.
In real life, if you haven't neutralized the situation in 4 shots TOTAL (you and them shooting), YOU are shot and probably dying. Accept it.
Adjust your thinking so that you realize that the reason you have pulled your weapon is to KILL someone who is
1) trying to kill you,
2) trying to kill your loved ones,
3) trying to kill someone physically near you.
and Maybe rape or kidnapping.....
You are NOT playing with your gun to prevent someone from stealing a hand full of Twinkies at the convenience store.
Also, if you are faced with 3 or more armed assailants, you WILL be shot. Prepare for that.
Clock time, that is seconds, will prevent you from shooting more than 2 perps unless you are very very very calm and and a perfect shot, and/or they can't hit anything. (not a good bet on either point).
Ladies and gentlemen. I have been doing this for decades, and I promise you that when it happens to you that "all your preconceived ideas will go out the window".
So, hey. If you disagree with what I say... it is a free country.
I hope you get to live to a very old age in this FREE country.
God feeds the birds of the air but He doesn’t drop worms into their mouths. Richard Pawley
"A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor
AMEN
No doubt someone on this thread will demand that you prove that statement by citing several documented case results.
***********
General statements, to whom it may concern:
The simple reaction of wanting to cause the store negative publicity is an illogical reaction to the situation. That would only cause the store to resist AND cause the negative public to be even more negative towards guns. That is simple human psycology.
Ammo
Why does anyone need 40>52 rounds of ammunition on their person?
These people have seen so many movies that they "want"? to be in a fire fight.
I promise you that IF, that is IF you fire more than 6, you will probably be charged with the felony. Where did those bullets stop? Can you walk over and point to them?
Granted, concealed carry does require that you be prepared to reach in and draw your weapon, which takes a little time (practice),
but that is your advantage when the perp is NOT CONCENTRATING ON YOU, but doing other things. You are "one up on him".
The perp sees you open carrying. He has the time advantage, as he can pick his plan of action toward you. (Take your gun, shoot you first, etc.)
By open carrying you start out at a disadvantage.
In real life, if you haven't neutralized the situation in 4 shots TOTAL (you and them shooting), YOU are shot and probably dying. Accept it.
Adjust your thinking so that you realize that the reason you have pulled your weapon is to KILL someone who is
1) trying to kill you,
2) trying to kill your loved ones,
3) trying to kill someone physically near you.
and Maybe rape or kidnapping.....
You are NOT playing with your gun to prevent someone from stealing a hand full of Twinkies at the convenience store.
Also, if you are faced with 3 or more armed assailants, you WILL be shot. Prepare for that.
Clock time, that is seconds, will prevent you from shooting more than 2 perps unless you are very very very calm and and a perfect shot, and/or they can't hit anything. (not a good bet on either point).
Ladies and gentlemen. I have been doing this for decades, and I promise you that when it happens to you that "all your preconceived ideas will go out the window".
So, hey. If you disagree with what I say... it is a free country.
I hope you get to live to a very old age in this FREE country.
God feeds the birds of the air but He doesn’t drop worms into their mouths. Richard Pawley
Gordon Shumway
New member
To answer the questions posted above.
Deterrent
"60% of felons say..."
Doesn't that mean that 40% might attempt to jump you and take your gun
OR
just shoot your axx first?
Education?
The vast majority of people, whether gunner or anti-gunner, have gained their "education" from watching movies.
IMO numerous people on gun forums are living in a wish filled fantasy world.
I hope they don't shoot me by accident.
Deterrent
"60% of felons say..."
Doesn't that mean that 40% might attempt to jump you and take your gun
OR
just shoot your axx first?
Education?
The vast majority of people, whether gunner or anti-gunner, have gained their "education" from watching movies.
IMO numerous people on gun forums are living in a wish filled fantasy world.
I hope they don't shoot me by accident.
How many people have you shot at? How many people have shot at you?
Seems to me like that only leaves me with 40% of the felons that I have to be concerned about shooting. You have the whole 100% out to get you.
Example of the other 40% of felons that you talk about:
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/
The above is the opinion of Philip Van Cleave, who is the president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League.
Punch
New member
Hello fellow Nebraskan! As to the sign, that only applies to concealed carry. Any private property owner can ask you to leave if he knows you have a weapon (ie open carry). However, concealed means concealed. So, the state has allowed those hoplophobes that don't don't want you armed at all the ability to post a sign, which now makes it illegal to carry concealed on their property.
Gordon Shumway
New member
And so do I. Remember, 60% of felons themselves said they would avoid attacking a victim they knew to be armed. 74% of felons admit they don't enter occupied homes for fear of being shot at. 57% said they were more afraid of armed citizens than the police.
Carrying a concealed firearm does nothing to prevent a crime.... it only gives you something to protect yourself with, IF you have the chance, AFTER the criminal has already attacked.
One person is too many. Nice try.
mistergus75
New member
Sounds like a little man trying to play the big man to me.
If it's actually their corporate policy, then he should be able to produce a written copy of that policy. I bet he can't do it.
mistergus75
If it's actually their corporate policy, then he should be able to produce a written copy of that policy. I bet he can't do it.
mistergus75
Gordon Shumway
New member
Colorado State Fire arm Laws:
CRS 18-12-201 thru 216 & CRS 29-11.7-101 thru 104 & CRS 18-12-101
Thru 111 & CRS 33-14-117 & CRS 33-6-125
State Deadly Force Laws: 18-1-701 thru 18-1-710
**********
(C.R.S 18-12-214.4) Public owned business (government)
(C.R.S. 18-12-214.5) Privately owned business (stores)
(29-11.7-104.) Regulation - Carrying - Posting.
(18-1-701 through 710)
Deadly Force Laws (it might not say what you think it says)
CRS 18-12-201 thru 216 & CRS 29-11.7-101 thru 104 & CRS 18-12-101
Thru 111 & CRS 33-14-117 & CRS 33-6-125
State Deadly Force Laws: 18-1-701 thru 18-1-710
**********
(C.R.S 18-12-214.4) Public owned business (government)
(C.R.S. 18-12-214.5) Privately owned business (stores)
(29-11.7-104.) Regulation - Carrying - Posting.
(18-1-701 through 710)
Deadly Force Laws (it might not say what you think it says)
First, you'd have to show that there is a second amendment right to carry a weapon on public property.
Then you's have to show that the private premises are the functional equivalent of public property for purposes of the second amendment.
You'll never get past the first requirement, so the second requirement will never be at issue.
Beau
I was never here.
Here is the letter I sent.
To whom it may concern,
I am writing about an experience I had while shopping at the Aurora East location on March 15, 2011. I was at this store with my two children and my mother to exchange a couple of on-line purchases. The customer service we received while exchanging the items was terrific.
What was not terrific is that I was asked to leave the store because I was openly carrying a firearm in a legal and safe manner. In the state of Colorado it is legal to carry a firearm in plain view.
After standing in the customer service line for about 10 minutes my family and I then walked through the store to locate the items for our exchange. This took another 10 minutes at least. We then returned to the customer service line to complete our exchange. While standing in line I was approached by a gentleman who introduced himself as Brian Akonom. He stated he was the head of the loss prevention department. He asked me if I was in law enforcement. When I informed him that I was not he asked why I was carrying. I replied for the protection of myself and my family. He then stated that the carry of firearms, except for law enforcement, was not allowed in Kohl's and asked me to leave. I immediately complied and left the store. I placed my firearm in my vehicle and returned to the store to further speak with Brian. He informed me that the rule regarding the carry of firearms is a corporate policy and not a store policy. I was also led to believe that concealed carry was allowed by default since there is no way to regulate that method of carry. Also that had I been a law enforcement officer, even if not on duty, I would have been allowed to carry.
In no way am I complaining about my interaction with Brian. He was very polite and professional while answering my questions.
My main question is this. Does Kohl's prohibit the legal and safe carry of firearms in their stores? If so, I can no longer give any Kohl's store my business. Nor will I continue to shop on-line.
If it is Kohl's policy to abide by local and state laws regarding the carry of firearms then please inform the Aurora East location of the proper policy.
Thank you for your time in this matter.
Sincerely,
Beau
303-xxx-xxxx
To whom it may concern,
I am writing about an experience I had while shopping at the Aurora East location on March 15, 2011. I was at this store with my two children and my mother to exchange a couple of on-line purchases. The customer service we received while exchanging the items was terrific.
What was not terrific is that I was asked to leave the store because I was openly carrying a firearm in a legal and safe manner. In the state of Colorado it is legal to carry a firearm in plain view.
After standing in the customer service line for about 10 minutes my family and I then walked through the store to locate the items for our exchange. This took another 10 minutes at least. We then returned to the customer service line to complete our exchange. While standing in line I was approached by a gentleman who introduced himself as Brian Akonom. He stated he was the head of the loss prevention department. He asked me if I was in law enforcement. When I informed him that I was not he asked why I was carrying. I replied for the protection of myself and my family. He then stated that the carry of firearms, except for law enforcement, was not allowed in Kohl's and asked me to leave. I immediately complied and left the store. I placed my firearm in my vehicle and returned to the store to further speak with Brian. He informed me that the rule regarding the carry of firearms is a corporate policy and not a store policy. I was also led to believe that concealed carry was allowed by default since there is no way to regulate that method of carry. Also that had I been a law enforcement officer, even if not on duty, I would have been allowed to carry.
In no way am I complaining about my interaction with Brian. He was very polite and professional while answering my questions.
My main question is this. Does Kohl's prohibit the legal and safe carry of firearms in their stores? If so, I can no longer give any Kohl's store my business. Nor will I continue to shop on-line.
If it is Kohl's policy to abide by local and state laws regarding the carry of firearms then please inform the Aurora East location of the proper policy.
Thank you for your time in this matter.
Sincerely,
Beau
303-xxx-xxxx
FloridaBlue
New member
Well said, keep us posted on their response please.
paul@paul-fisher.com
New member
Yes they do. I cannot picket without permission on private property. I can only show up when they invite me (the store is open). I can't yell anything I want inside their store. They can refuse service to me for any reason (as long as it isn't a 'protected class') and ask me to leave. If I refuse, they can call the cops and have me forcibly removed.
I have no idea how people get the idea that just because a privately owned business (not owned by the government) doesn't have private property rights.
Axeanda45
Banned
I have no idea how you can be so confused......
Picketing? please find an actual example that would make sense and apply to the subject we are discussing......
You are only allowed there when they are open???? What about outside their door on the sidewalk? The parking lot?
Yelling? Fine, please show me where in the constitution that YELLING is protected.... Speech is protected, yes.... But NOT ABUSIVE/DISRUPTIVE actions.... Again, you need to think things through a little more before you post something....
Refusing Service to anyone... Why yes, they can do that.... Service means allowing me to purchase something, right? Where does that translate into not allowed to be there? Can they say no Europeans (regardless of skin color) allowed?
If you go back and actually read what I wrote instead of going off and making a fool of yourself... maybe you will see I NEVER said you couldn't be asked to leave.......... or that you didnt have to leave..........
If you INVITE the PUBLIC..... You have to ACCEPT the PUBLIC.......... Otherwise you have a PRIVATE CLUB, which may have any rules they want.... and the ONLY ones allowed in are the ones that AGREE to your rules BEFORE entering...
My Rights that I was born with are permanent, and non-removable...... it does not matter where I am standing........ However, I do not have the right to trespass onto PRIVATE property, that would be infringing on anothers rights..... But BUSINESS property is different from Private property by virtue of them INVITING the public..... My having an INANIMATE object in my possession in NO WAY infringes on a Business owners rights, as long as I am not waving it around threatening people with it, it is HARMLESS and none of their #$@N concern whatsoever...
paul@paul-fisher.com
New member
Wow! Name calling! Good job!!!!
As a business owner, yes I own a business, I would like to see you come onto my property, outside my building, after I told you I don't want you there. We shall see what your 'rights' are. You have NO rights on MY private property, which includes property owned by my business. I allow you to come in and do what I allow you to do. I allow you to buy stuff from me. I can refuse service or even access to you because your have no hair, or your hair is red. Is this a smart business decision? Not really but it is within my rights. If you don't like it, you have the right to stand off of my property with a sign saying I'm an *******. You can post on the internet, you can do whatever the heck you want as long as you stay off my property.
There are a few businesses that are regulated and therefore can't 'discriminate'. If I am a hotel or rent houses or apartments I can't refuse service to you in violation of the fair housing act.
You have rights when dealing with the government. With an individual or other non-governmental entity, you have privileges, which can be revoked.
H
handgonnetoter
Guest
That sucks! I'd like to know what exactly did Kohls accomplish by having a policy like this. I don't even think these places actually think about what they will be accomplishing by such stupid rules. :no:
Axeanda45
Banned
Wow, just wow.... WHERE DID I CALL YOU NAMES????? You need to go back to school and learn how to read if you think I called you names!!!
I already refuted and explained the trespassing part, but here you are pointing out your ignorance again.... Arguing about something that WAS NOT SAID to prove a point that was not made....(you should look that up (ignorant) before you accuse me of calling you a name and further show your ignorance)
paul@paul-fisher.com
New member
Believe what you want. I will say this just one more time.
There is no such thing as 'public private property'. There is public property (owned by a governmental entity) and private property (owned by an individual or a non governmental company). You have NO rights on private property. You may be allowed access but it is because the owner wants you there, not because you have a right.
As for your statement about trespassing, you have a short memory.
You said:
The invite can have restrictions. I can invite you into my house and say 'you can't wear a red shirt'. I can also post a sign on my business door saying 'no red shirts'. If you come into either place with a red shirt, I can demand you leave and if you don't, take further action, depending on local law.
Same with a firearm.
Please show me any court case or law that 'forces' me to let you onto any business property with a red shirt on or a firearm.
