Another SC Home Defense Shooting

[kelcarry]

Hey rsdonb: A I said in my last post, I will not argue about a "proper" punishment for a thief. You do what you gotta do and I do what I gotta do--its all about some degree of conscience and, as I said, an appreciation of your limitations with a firearm going up against someone who may be a lot better than you--once you are dead, I tend to think you made a bad choice about teaching the thief a lesson. In most cases, the thieves eventually get caught either that day or thru pawn shops where the goods go in exchange for dollars (these thiefs are not the brightest bulbs and probably need the money for drugs) and end up with some form of punishment.
Hey GOV: We had a good time the other day. We'll do it again. Some sites to look at and register on:
Gunandgame; defensivecarry; concealedcarry; firingline; handgunforum; mouseguns; rimfirecentral---Have fun!!
Hey Y'all: Newest SC defensive shooting: Last night an army guy with family was moving thru SC in a 2 vehicle caravan with a trailer. Had trouble with the vehicle pulling the trailer and pulled off I95 in Walterboro (famous for its continuing gun battles literally everyday) to put the trailer on the other vehicle. Once stopped and working on transfer a sedan pulled up, a guy got out with a cloth over face and pointing a big cal desert eagle at him. The army guy was CC with a CCWP and immediately pulled out his firearm and shot the perp who dropped his firearm. The other guys in the sedan apparently opened fire and the army guy returned fire but no one else was injured. They arrested the slime at a hospital. Brave army guy---I'm not so sure any of us (other than those who REALLY know how to respond), facing a big gun like that would be inclined to pull out a gun. Nonetheless, another SC story that ended well for CC and defense.

 

[rsdonb]

Hey KELCARRY, Your response may be reasonable except they are very seldom caught, and if they are, a lawyer will have them back on the street in less time than it takes me to type this. Why are you carrying a weapon? Is because you feel it is needed, I think so. A thief is a person that will take what ever they want or in some cases just because they like to steal. The item that is stolen is in most cases just handy. This person will at a moments notice steal your life with out any feeling for you or your family. Do not forget that our prisons are full of thieves, I personally will nor stand and watch while the products and property I have worked for all of my 70 years are taken just because it seems the thing to do. I have in most cases obtained them for my children and grandchildren.

 

[GOV5]

Hey KELCARRY, Your response may be reasonable except they are very seldom caught, and if they are, a lawyer will have them back on the street in less time than it takes me to type this. Why are you carrying a weapon? Is because you feel it is n k so. A thief is a person that will take what ever they want or in some cases just because they like to steal. The item that is stolen is in most cases just handy. This person will at a moments notice steal your life with out any feeling for you or your family. Do not forget that our prisons are full of thieves, I personally will nor stand and watch while the products and property I have worked for all of my 70 years are taken just because it seems the thing to do. I have in most cases obtained them for my children and grandchildren.

I know how you feel and I understand what you are saying. The problem is, the LAW doesn't see it that way. Doing what you are saying will land YOU in jail, not the perp. I know it doesn't make sense, and it isn't right. But wishing it was different, and taking action like it was different, is going to get you in BIG trouble. You have to deal with things they way there are, not the way you want them to be.

 

[GOV5]

Hey rsdonb: A I said in my last post, I will not argue about a "proper" punishment for a thief. You do what you gotta do and I do what I gotta do--its all about some degree of conscience and, as I said, an appreciation of your limitations with a firearm going up against someone who may be a lot better than you--once you are dead, I tend to think you made a bad choice about teaching the thief a lesson. In most cases, the thieves eventually get caught either that day or thru pawn shops where the goods go in exchange for dollars (these thiefs are not the brightest bulbs and probably need the money for drugs) and end up with some form of punishment.
Hey GOV: We had a good time the other day. We'll do it again. Some sites to look at and register on:
Gunandgame; defensivecarry; concealedcarry; firingline; handgunforum; mouseguns; rimfirecentral---Have fun!!
Hey Y'all: Newest SC defensive shooting: Last night an army guy with family was moving thru SC in a 2 vehicle caravan with a trailer. Had trouble with the vehicle pulling the trailer and pulled off I95 in Walterboro (famous for its continuing gun battles literally everyday) to put the trailer on the other vehicle. Once stopped and working on transfer a sedan pulled up, a guy got out with a cloth over face and pointing a big cal desert eagle at him. The army guy was CC with a CCWP and immediately pulled out his firearm and shot the perp who dropped his firearm. The other guys in the sedan apparently opened fire and the army guy returned fire but no one else was injured. They arrested the slime at a hospital. Brave army guy---I'm not so sure any of us (other than those who REALLY know how to respond), facing a big gun like that would be inclined to pull out a gun. Nonetheless, another SC story that ended well for CC and defense.

WE had a great time,didn't we? I've got to get a lot better to shoot as well as you, but you set the bar for me now> LOL! BTW, I found that coupon in the East Cooper section of the paper. It's in the wallet now.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey rsdonb: I understand everything you had to say in your post. Having said that let me address some of your comments based on my previous posts.
1. Most thieves do get caught--they are usually stupid drug heads looking for anything they can pawn for $$. They are smash and grab addicts and do get caught.
2. You indicate that they would just as soon rob you of your life as they would rob you of your "stuff". If you go out to confront them and they are better with their shooting ability and have better weaponry, you are right. Again, I understand your frustration and anger but you being killed over "stuff" does not make sense and sure as heck will not make sense to the children you mention who, I'm sure, would rather have their father and grandfather instead of his "stuff". You keep your bedroom door locked and secure, you have your cellphone for 911, you have your car keys/emergency alarm to activate the car alarm and lights, you have your 12g or pistol, and you wait in your bedroom--if they try to come in, they will not come out the same way. You have your insurance agent's name and phone number and you can always purchase brand new replacements for whatever the smash and grab perps took.
We really are on the same page here. It is easy to say things at your computer but the reality check of what you are saying could result in your demise and, I'm sorry, over "stuff"---it is not worth it.

 

[lifeguardhall]

Hey Gov and FN: Reading the last few replies, a light bulb went off in my head when GOV complained that there was nothing he could do over the car theft scenario. In reality, if you feel you are good enough for it (armed with a big gun and very proficient at using it), there does not seem to be a reason why you should not be able to go outside and confront some slime with a "what the hell do you think you are doing?" It is your property and you, I would think, have a right to question someone who is fooling with your stuff. If the slime now turns on you and puts you in the "imminent danger" mode, you can defend yourself. I stand corrected on my previous comments. I believe the old man had every right to go outside and confront slime boy--it is his car and his property and by god he has a right to ask "what the hell do you think you are doing?"; I would think that this is the reason no charges were brought. If, as in this case, slime boy is slow to respond and does so in a manner that is a "reasonable" threat to "imminent danger", slime boy can suffer the consequences, which he did. YOU SHOULD AT LEAST CALL 911 AS A PRUDENT INITIAL EFFORT, and you should be aware that slime boy could be packin bigger than you and may be better at than you. Personally, "stuff" is not worth my life to find out that slime boy is indeed better at this "gun thing" than me, as I lie there dying.

It took you 7 pages of lecturing and blathering to realize that anyone has the right to question someone that is on or messing with their property? Not everyone locks themselves in a room and waits for someone else to take care of their business or come see what every little noise is outside. There is nothing wrong with checking things out yourself prior to calling 911 and doing it armed. When you do find out what is going on and the situation presents itself where you need to protect yourself, there is nothing wrong with that either. You can't dial 911 and lock yourself in a bedroom for every little noise your hear in the middle of the night. I wonder what my wife would think of me then....

As far as a BG being better prepared, have you checked the statistics? More times than not a BG has zero experience or training with a firearm and won't hit what he shoots at if he even gets the chance. Everyone has the right to own firearms, but some need a little more training than others. Just a note, if you are locking yourself in your bedroom and say you are going to shoot someone that tries to get in, do yourself a favor and identify your target before you fire your weapon. You could be the one being charged if you shoot through the door.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey lifeguardhall: Your are in a land of what ifs and total paranoia. Have at it--do what you want--don't lecture me with your ridicule and better than me attitude. Just one time that you are wrong I live to see daylight and you do not. ITS JUST STUFF FOR GOD SAKES. Just love it when all of you brave guys sit at your computer in your underwear and are the next coming of Dirty Harry.

 

[GOV5]

It took you 7 pages of lecturing and blathering to realize that anyone has the right to question someone that is on or messing with their property? Not everyone locks themselves in a room and waits for someone else to take care of their business or come see what every little noise is outside. There is nothing wrong with checking things out yourself prior to calling 911 and doing it armed. When you do find out what is going on and the situation presents itself where you need to protect yourself, there is nothing wrong with that either. You can't dial 911 and lock yourself in a bedroom for every little noise your hear in the middle of the night. I wonder what my wife would think of me then....

As far as a BG being better prepared, have you checked the statistics? More times than not a BG has zero experience or training with a firearm and won't hit what he shoots at if he even gets the chance. Everyone has the right to own firearms, but some need a little more training than others. Just a note, if you are locking yourself in your bedroom and say you are going to shoot someone that tries to get in, do yourself a favor and identify your target before you fire your weapon. You could be the one being charged if you shoot through the door.

Welcome to the forum. NICE FIRST POST! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't count on BGs not having training with a firearm, or knowing how to use it. That would be a VERY serious assumption mistake. Remember, at personal defense distances, an old lady with cataract problems can shoot you dead in a heartbeat!

The other serious assumption you made is about the physche , build, and manliness of Kelcarry. I know him and I'll guarantee that you wouldn't talk to him like that if you were standing in front of him. I'm 6'2" and I wouldn't talk to him like that!

How about toning down your rhetoric a little? We like to debate here. None of us will shy away from that. But what we don't like here, is someone trying to turn a debate into a "You're an idiot and I'm going to show you how much smarter I am than you" attack. You aren't going to make anyone here think you are some billy-bad-ass. Posts liker you made to kelcary only make you look like billy-dumb-ass. Put your mind in gear before your mouth starts rolling next time.

Look, we can all learn from one another here and enjoy this place, as long as we treat each other with mutual respect and civility. For crying out loud, if everyone would do that, we wouldn't need to even carry these guns. Be part of the solution, not the problem. We face enough bad stuff out on the street. Lets not create an atmosphere here, where we do it to each other at our home computers.

I'm sure you have a lot of valuable info and experience you can add here. If we can help each other learn here by passing along the experience of each other, collectively maybe we can avoid the mistakes and expenses that each of us would have made by ourselves. There are a lot of good folks here. Give them a chance to show you that.

 

[Scouse]

Welcome to the forum. NICE FIRST POST! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't count on BGs not having training with a firearm, or knowing how to use it. That would be a VERY serious assumption mistake. Remember, at personal defense distances, an old lady with cataract problems can shoot you dead in a heartbeat!

The other serious assumption you made is about the physche , build, and manliness of Kelcarry. I know him and I'll guarantee that you wouldn't talk to him like that if you were standing in front of him. I'm 6'2" and I wouldn't talk to him like that!

How about toning down your rhetoric a little? We like to debate here. None of us will shy away from that. But what we don't like here, is someone trying to turn a debate into a "You're an idiot and I'm going to show you how much smarter I am than you" attack. You aren't going to make anyone here think you are some billy-bad-ass. Posts liker you made to kelcary only make you look like billy-dumb-ass. Put your mind in gear before your mouth starts rolling next time.

Look, we can all learn from one another here and enjoy this place, as long as we treat each other with mutual respect and civility. For crying out loud, if everyone would do that, we wouldn't need to even carry these guns. Be part of the solution, not the problem. We face enough bad stuff out on the street. Lets not create an atmosphere here, where we do it to each other at our home computers.

I'm sure you have a lot of valuable info and experience you can add here. If we can help each other learn here by passing along the experience of each other, collectively maybe we can avoid the mistakes and expenses that each of us would have made by ourselves. There are a lot of good folks here. Give them a chance to show you that.

Come on Gove5, say what you really think!

 

[-06]

Red Hat has a fairly good perspective IMO. I have lost thousands to thieves and have yet to get one penny back or one item returned. Have made my mind up that the next one is going to get some hot lead. I do not like the thought of firing on someone but am sick of having to buy something every time I need a tool or having to replace stolen firearms--some of which can not be replaced. Just this year I had over $50,000 worth of trucks, steel beams, trusses, and specialty equipment stolen while I was in SD bringing my son back home from a wreck. When I catch them they may get the "Buford Pusser" treatement or worse.

 

[mappow]

Shoot, don't shoot. ONLY YOU can make that call. Kind of figured that what this site is all about and has to offer. Insights (not down the barrel), education and some wisdom. Throw in a few laughs and have some fun.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

 

[rsdonb]

Hey Kelcarry, I get from your posts you live in a city where it may be as long as 3 minutes to get help after dialing 911. here it could be as long as 2 maybe 3 hours. We have some of the best LEOs here but they could be as far as 150 miles from you. If you think all you have to do is wait, oooooppps you lose. I can tell you are a very intelligent and good man but it appears You have possibly lost the idea of why we carry a weapon. I personally carry a weapon to protect my family, myself, AND all of my personal property. The reasons we all carry weapons are varied and each indefensible in a court of law. I appreciate the time you have spent in this post, but my mind is set on my course of action. Again Thank you...

 

[strousw]

A 19 year old was "rummaging" around a pickup truck in someone's yard in the middle of the night with the apparent iintention to find some treasure, if not the truck itself. The older gentleman in the home heard noises, grabbed his gun and before calling 911, went outside to confront the 19 year old. He ordered him to turn around and face him and told him to take his hands out of his pockets as he stood there. The 19 year old hesitated and then took one hand out and started to take the other hand out, at which point the old man fired and hit the 19 year old twice--serious injuries but not life threatening; the old man THEN called 911. The solicitor refused to indict and no further legal action has or was taken concerning the old man's actions. In my heart I immensely enjoy everything the old man did. In my mind, however, I find this case a bit troubling. I understand "castle doctrine" etc, but no 911, the seemingly cavalier attitude of priority of property over life, and a confrontation first by the old man who truly initiated his apparent "imminent dange". Any comments?

I would tell my wife to call 911 while I investigate. I work hard for my stuff! In Texas it is legal to use deadly force to stop someone from leaving your property with your property!

 

[Scouse]

I would tell my wife to call 911 while I investigate. I work hard for my stuff! In Texas it is legal to use deadly force to stop someone from leaving your property with your property!

Nothing to do with the subject! Met a young guy at an IPSC match, he was around 5'6" had a hat on that said Texas. Shorter than I, I said "I thought every one from Texas was real big?"

He looked me right in the eye and said "I am a Texas midget" Broke me up!

I was just being a smart !A

 

[GOV5]

Nothing to do with the subject! Met a young guy at an IPSC match, he was around 5'6" had a hat on that said Texas. Shorter than I, I said "I thought every one from Texas was real big?"

He looked me right in the eye and said "I am a Texas midget" Broke me up!

I was just being a smart !A

THAT IS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!! I bet he caught you COMPLETELY OFF GUARD!!! LOL!!

 

[kelcarry]

Hey rsdonb: I appreciate your post and comments and particularly appreciate the courteous manner you chose to disagree with some of my thoughts on this matter. I guess the phrase "to each his own" is appropriate and, based on your comments I can understand where you are coming from and respect your decision. Apart from LEO response time, I can also appreciate comments made by members who have children or others living in other parts of the house; in my case, it is only my wife and I in the bedroom. Again, in my case and that is all I am inferring in my posts, I do not intend to put my life in danger for "stuff". Any situation can have different variables, which can always change my thinking, but, for the most part, yelling that LEO has been called, the rack of a shotgun, and the blaring of my car in the garage is the most I will be doing----I do not intend to put myself in harms way for silverware and china and maybe a TV--I have videotaped valuables for insurance purposes and that is good enough for me. I am mature enough and big enough to appreciate the limits of my "courage" --as Dirty Harry said " man must know his limitations" and when it comes to firearms and defense, I will do EVERYTHING to avoid same UNLESS it comes down to my reasonsable expectation of great bodily injury or death--that does not include "stuff".

 

[DonSmithnotTMD]

For those of you that aren't religious, you aren't going to like this, but TOO BAD. Deal with it!

I think I can clear up pretty quickly, in my words, why the law is written the way it is about " You can't take a life over "stuff" ". Most of our laws are based upon laws from the Old Testament, or at least old religious laws. The REAL reason, however, is the " Be patient, GOD isn't finished with me yet!" belief.

Young people especially make stupid decisions. They learn with experience. Killing a young person, even 19 years old, is awful. That person still has time to "turn around". And what would be in the car anyway that would justify taking someone's life?

This case is no more than an old man that is pissed off about the unchecked rush of crime in our country, and the liberal courts and justice system that let folks too easily. He wanted to "rid the streets of garbage", and took the law into his own hands. He murdered someone, as far as I'm concerned. And GOD wasn't finished with that young man yet.

I have a policy that I wouldn't kill somebody over stuff. The exception is our bakery because we don't have insurance to cover a cash loss and someone presenting a weapon. That said, why does it effect me if somebody else makes a different decision?

 

[GOV5]

I don't understand the question. Could you please re-phrase it for me?

 

[bigrebnc1861]

In my opinion the older gentleman should have called 911 and probably left it at that. Shooting people outside the home over property isn't worth it to anyone. It's just "stuff" that can be fixed or replaced, legally it's "thin ice", and there may be more than one person to deal with if one confronts the perp(s). Obviously, if the kid had tried to enter the house that would be another story. We all want to protect our property and feel helpless and violated if we don't, but if there is no imminent danger to us or our loved one's lives I'd say let the cops deal with it.

We had an incident last year here in west Michigan where a homeowner shot up some kids as they were attempting to flee in a car... turned out the homeowners son had arranged for some of his buddy's to T-P the house as a prank. Fortunately,no one got seriously hurt but the homeowner was charged with all sorts of violations.

One question I have pertaining to the incident at hand... is it best to have someone remove their hands from their pockets while facing you or when their back is turned? If the perp is turned he could surreptitiously pull a gun, spin and shoot... or, if facing you they could simply pull a gun before you can react... what is the best way to deal with this situation?

An old reply but I felt the need to respond. This comment was made:
Shooting people outside the home over property isn't worth it to anyone. It's just "stuff"
Some people keep a gun in the glove box of their vehicle maybe the old man haad another gun stored in his car. is it still stuff?

 

[mappow]

This incident started HOW? The intrusion was initiated by whom? This never would have escalated into anything had the perp obeyed the Law. Right/Wrong, did he, did he not...........ALL after the fact. The AG found no reason to prosecute, I agree with him. For the touchy-feely types----NO, I would not shoot anyone over "stuff" UNLESS when I instructed, in EXTREMELY LOAD VOICE, TO FREEZE. IF you don't obey my order or you jerk, twitch, grab for something...........

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)