Well, perhaps that is because the word was not misused. An accident is an unintentional event. Negligence is willful behavior. Handling a loaded gun, with the finger on the trigger (if not ready to shoot) certainly qualifies as negligence. However, if the resulting shot is unintentional, it is still an accident, even if it was caused by negligent (willful) behavior.
Accidental shootings by police
- Thread starter ventman
- Start date
Well, perhaps that is because the word was not misused. An accident is an unintentional event. Negligence is willful behavior. Handling a loaded gun, with the finger on the trigger (if not ready to shoot) certainly qualifies as negligence. However, if the resulting shot is unintentional, it is still an accident, even if it was caused by negligent (willful) behavior.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
Blah blah. Quote only part of a post and you can reply as though it wasn't clarified why I viewed the word as misused before saying what you quoted. Your excuse-making for trigger-happy cops who claim not to know the difference between a light switch and a trigger is despicable. Like I already said....
Where did I make excuses for trigger-happy cops? I simply pointed out that there was no misuse of the word 'accident', as you claimed. Perhaps you could read the definition of the word, and explain how it was misused.
But anyway I'll try it again, this time with the whole statement.
You're right, there is a legal definition of the words. Accidents are unintentional events, negligence is intentional behavior and is almost always the cause of accidents. And for your information, there have been lots of people sent to prison for an accident.
Technically though, you have been misusing the word 'negligent' when referring to an accidental discharge. An example (legally) of a negligent discharge would be intentionally firing in a reckless manner. Such as firing into the air in a populated area, or shooting close to someone to scare him.
apvbguy
New member
have you ever seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uADb3NyYlSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uADb3NyYlSA
BluesStringer
Les Brers
If you're claiming that drawing a weapon, pointing it inside a tent, mistaking the light switch for the trigger and negligently discharging the weapon is in any way an "accident," you're making excuses for trigger-happy cops. It's no "accident" when you unholster your weapon, point it in the direction where you are very likely to find human beings and pull the trigger without identifying a threat. That's called negligence, not an "accident."
So please tell me where the "accident" comes in during the types of events we've been discussing.
1) A cop draws his weapon with no identifiable threat in view. Negligence or accident? Or perhaps in the early stages of the events leading up to the weapon's discharge, neither?
2) The cop searches an area pointing his weapon in various directions so he can use the rail-mounted flashlight to illuminate the area. Negligence, accident or neither?
3) The cop opens the flap of a tent, claims he mistook the trigger for the on/off switch of his rail-mounted flashlight, pulls that trigger and fires a round into the floor of the tent. Negligent, accident, neither, or maybe you're saying both?
My training and experience informs me that there is NO WAY for anyone to mistake a trigger for a light switch, and that the only explanation for that discharge is gross and criminal negligence. I agree with you that pulling that trigger was intentional, but the round firing and the bullet going into the floor of the tent where a human being would've been sleeping if they were in there, was no accident. It was a trigger-happy cop exhibiting gross negligence for the safety of the least among us, homeless people, that he is sworn to protect.
Cite a case where a simple accident sent anyone to prison. I'll wait.
Are you daft? I haven't referred to any "accidental discharge" among the cases the Denver Chief of Police is trying to blame on flashlights, thereby excusing the negligence of his trigger-happy street-cops. Firing into an unoccupied tent is firing in a reckless manner, isn't it? That's negligence, isn't it? Firing into a tent in a homeless encampment is in a populated area and close to people who would obviously be scared by the shot, isn't it?
It simply isn't believable that any experienced shooter, cop or otherwise, could mistake their trigger for a flashlight switch, which removes the possibility of an "accidental discharge" and leaves only a grossly and criminal negligent discharge.
And finally, you suggest above that I "read the definition of the word" (referring to "accident") and tell you how it was misused. You would've done well to do the same before challenging me to do it.
Was it "by chance" that in all cases blamed on an attempt to actuate a flashlight switch, the weapon was unholstered beforehand?
Was it "by chance" that in all cases blamed on an attempt to actuate a flashlight switch, the weapon was pointed in an unsafe direction where in at least one instance, an innocent bystander was injured?
Was it "by chance" that in all examples given and linked to by the article being discussed that the Chief is making the excuse that ostensibly highly-trained professionals "accidentally" pulled their triggers when they were attempting to actuate a flashlight switch? Of course not! He's making excuses for the incompetent and negligent trigger-happy boobs of the Denver PD! None of those discharges happened "by chance" in any way, shape, manner or form, and anyone trying to put forth such a ridiculous notion is obviously predisposed to make excuses for trigger-happy cops just like the Denver Chief of Police did.
Blues
CharlesMorrison
Banned
Ky TopGun....
I'm smelling bacon....
Link Removed
Sent from behind Enemy Lines.
I'm smelling bacon....
Link Removed
Sent from behind Enemy Lines.
If it is unintentional, it's an accident even if it is caused by negligence.
She's not there yet, but here is one recently from there in Alabama.
"OWENSBORO, KY (WFIE) -
A Tri-State woman is now charged with manslaughter after a deadly accident in Alabama.
Authorities say 28-year-old Keeley Jan Maddox, of Owensboro, is being held in the Etowah County Jail on DUI and manslaughter charges.
According to the Gadsden Police Department, Maddox hit and dragged 45-year-old Matthew Paul Goddard across a bridge near Gadsden, Alabama.
Maddox is being held without bond and the investigation is ongoing.
Apparently, you overlooked the top definition.
No, but unholstering is not a discharge.
No, but pointing a weapon is not a discharge.
No, they certainly did not happen 'by chance'. I agree that they were caused by negligence, but if you will look again at your definition (the first, and most commonly used definition), they were accidents.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I ask for a cite of someone being jailed for a simple accident and you provide a case that hasn't even been tried yet?
If that woman gets convicted, it will be for killing someone under a criminal negligence statute - to wit: the negligence of climbing behind the wheel while intoxicated. Her negligence led to a foreseeable and predictable deadly contact with another individual, not an accident.
What the? So you're now saying unequivocally that you believe the Chief that pulling the trigger in several instances of negligent discharges in Denver, CO over the last year or so, happened "accidentally" because the cops were attempting to actuate a light switch that in no case was inside the trigger guard of the weapons they fired?
Let's look at that top definition again:
I say nobody even slightly familiar with how a gun works has ever pulled a trigger while thinking they were actuating their rail-mounted flashlight by "accident." In all cases, even inexperienced shooters know the difference between a light switch and a trigger, eliminating any possibility whatsoever that they could try to illuminate an area and "accidentally" fire their weapon instead. I'd ask you for a cite of how such a thing might happen, but I'm afraid you'd refer me to a book of fairy tales after the last "cite" you offered.
So if unholstering a weapon isn't a "by chance accident," what is it? Negligence, right?
Using a weapon light for illumination with no threat or target to illuminate is a small little detail you left out of this "analysis," but OK, if pointing a weapon in an unsafe direction while attempting to use a weapon light is not a "by chance accident," what is it? Negligence, right?
First, the things you admit did not happen "by chance" were not "caused" by negligence, they were acts of negligence leading to the willful firing of a firearm either towards, or in close proximity to, people from which no threat is known by anyone, including the Chief trying to make excuses for his idiot officers, to exist.
Secondly, good grief, so now you're actually saying that the pull of the trigger in every instance being discussed here was negligence due to it being an intentional act, but that the discharge of the weapon, the bullet exiting the muzzle and striking an innocent bystander in one instance, the floor of a tent where any cop would expect a human being to potentially be in another instance, and wherever they struck in the remaining instances were "accidents???" Answer me this riddle then, please: How does the following equation compute in your mind where "n" represents negligence and "a" represents accident:
1n + 1n + 1n = 1a.
I asked you about three specific instances of negligence that took place in all cases that led up to and including the trigger being pulled, and you didn't challenge that any of them were, indeed, negligent actions, also up to and including the trigger being pulled. So explain that equation for everybody so that we can understand it. 1 + 1 + 1 has to = 3, so either all three "n's" should have been "a's" or a "3n" should follow the "=" sign. Leave the book of fairy tales out of your explanation, please, and quit with the fuzzy math too.
Blues
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Negligence: failure to take proper care in doing something.
Negligence can lead to an accident, but an accident isn't always due to negligence.
Negligence defines the actions of the police officers.
Negligence can lead to an accident, but an accident isn't always due to negligence.
Negligence defines the actions of the police officers.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
And just to reinforce the definitions, somehow, KyTopGun seems to think that because the word "crash" was used in the definition of "accident," that crash and accident are synonymous or something. But here's the definition from the same dictionary for negligence:
So the word "crash" or "crashed" is used in both words' definitions pages, but nowhere does it say that an act of negligence "always" or "often" or "routinely" results in an accident in the form of a crash or any other screw-up, like, for instance, pulling a trigger when the gun should've never been used for strictly illumination purposes to begin with! And then for the Chief to slander the light-makers by saying they're to blame for the negligent discharges is just as despicable as someone who can't suss out the very elementary facts and conclude that there was nothing "accidental" about those negligent discharges at all!
Blues
So the word "crash" or "crashed" is used in both words' definitions pages, but nowhere does it say that an act of negligence "always" or "often" or "routinely" results in an accident in the form of a crash or any other screw-up, like, for instance, pulling a trigger when the gun should've never been used for strictly illumination purposes to begin with! And then for the Chief to slander the light-makers by saying they're to blame for the negligent discharges is just as despicable as someone who can't suss out the very elementary facts and conclude that there was nothing "accidental" about those negligent discharges at all!
Blues
Thought this may help, Accident vs Negligent
Accident - An unexpected and undesirable event caused by circumstances beyond the control of the participant(s). There are practically no firearms related "accidents" since guns don't go off by themselves nor point themselves at anything.
Negligent Discharge - The unplanned discharge of a firearm caused by a failure to observe the basic safety rules. Firearms related injuries or property damage are due to negligent discharges, not accidents. This is the proper term to use.
Accident - An unexpected and undesirable event caused by circumstances beyond the control of the participant(s). There are practically no firearms related "accidents" since guns don't go off by themselves nor point themselves at anything.
Negligent Discharge - The unplanned discharge of a firearm caused by a failure to observe the basic safety rules. Firearms related injuries or property damage are due to negligent discharges, not accidents. This is the proper term to use.
r1derbike
New member
Answer to NDs with Laser/Light Attachments
THIS
Link Removed
AND THIS
Link Removed
Will solve NDs while manipulating laser/light attachments. There is a magnet in the holster that turns-off the Viridian when holstered, and turns it on, before sidearm clears Kydex.
You set the Viridian to whatever mode(s) you desire, and it retains that setting. I like laser on, and light on, at night.
I don't know if LE duty sidearm lights, lasers, or holsters are available with this feature set, but this ensures you never fumble with your light or laser switches, after your sidearm is drawn.
One less thing to worry about when your ass, or innocents' asses are on the line. Works for me, at night, and the green laser is visible at least 100 yards in daylight. YMMV
Sidearm is a Springfield Armory XDm 9mm 4.5 inch. Laser/light combo is a Viridian X5L, with ECR (Enhanced Combat Readiness). Holster is a custom hybrid holster IWB/OWB.
Link Removed
THIS
Link Removed
AND THIS
Link Removed
Will solve NDs while manipulating laser/light attachments. There is a magnet in the holster that turns-off the Viridian when holstered, and turns it on, before sidearm clears Kydex.
You set the Viridian to whatever mode(s) you desire, and it retains that setting. I like laser on, and light on, at night.
I don't know if LE duty sidearm lights, lasers, or holsters are available with this feature set, but this ensures you never fumble with your light or laser switches, after your sidearm is drawn.
One less thing to worry about when your ass, or innocents' asses are on the line. Works for me, at night, and the green laser is visible at least 100 yards in daylight. YMMV
Sidearm is a Springfield Armory XDm 9mm 4.5 inch. Laser/light combo is a Viridian X5L, with ECR (Enhanced Combat Readiness). Holster is a custom hybrid holster IWB/OWB.
Link Removed
cheryorseekritz
New member
'
True. And that negligence led to an accidental discharge.
According to whom?
Well, if she is convicted, she is liable to go to prison. I guarantee that during trial the deadly 'contact' will be described as an accident.
But, since that doesn't satisfy you, here's one straight from The Ayoob Files: NY v Magliato. Frank Magliato went to prison for accidentally shooting and killing a man.
Where did I imply that? Just for your information, the word 'crash' in the definition is used as a example of "a sudden event that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury". Could have just as well used "such as an unintended discharge of a firearm".
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
I don't believe so. I own a c5lr but I will never put ecr into my holsters. There are very few instances I would want my accessory constantly lit, or lit right away. Monetary light is much more effective at keeping myself hidden while still identifying the threat and the environment.
After further research and thought, I retract my previous statement that negligence can lead to an accident. Here's why. Just like most automobile crashes are due to human negligence, an accident deems it was out of anyone's control, but negligence is due to a human acting unsafe. Hence why a good portion of EMS call them motor vehicle collisions/crashes now, and not motor vehicle accidents anymore. Accidents aren't preventable if they're unplanned or unforeseen, this discharge was preventable, so it was not an accident. Negligence caused a negligent discharge.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
AndeyHall
Active member
Give it up. He's 10000000% anti-cop. You'll never convince him otherwise. They're all out to kill you. Therefore nothing they ever do can ever be considered an accident. It's not accident nor is it negligence. It is willful intent to do harm to anyone and everyone around them. Bluesosophy 101.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I am pretty sure I found where Stan45 got those definitions from. He can correct me if I'm mistaken, but the same verbiage can be found here at "Fr. Frog's Pad." The introduction on the "A Glossary of Terms" page says this:
My instructors at ShootRite Firearms Academy used the same terminology in the entry-level courses (mandatory for non-LE students before moving on to more advanced levels). Returnees to the intermediate and advanced level courses were only reminded of the proper terminology if someone either had an ND and claimed it was an "accident," or just used the wrong terminology when asking a question or something. My wife and I started those courses about the time the above-referenced booklet was published, but it was not part of the course curriculum, so the notion that there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge" that doesn't derive from mechanical defects or unforeseen exigent circumstances pre-dates in firearms academia the booklet referred to above. I completed all courses at ShootRite available to non-LE students, and my wife completed all but the intermediate and advanced level shotgun courses with me between '93 and about 2000. During all that time, it was drilled into us from the beginning that there's no such thing as an "accidental" pull of the trigger sans any mechanical defect. Unintended pulls of the trigger are always due to negligence, and as such, always carry the potential to be prosecuted as a crime.
Here's a more modern version of a firearms terminology glossary that is perfectly consistent with the one linked above.
Described as an accident by whom, her defense attorney? You do realize that defense attorneys are tasked with the job of excusing inexcusable behavior and/or actions, right?
Otherwise, you're just blowin' smoke and don't know a freakin' thing about what you're saying. She will be charged under a negligence statute, probably this one:
So will she or won't she be prosecuted under misdemeanor provisions or felony provisions? Well, let's look at Section 32-5A-191 and see what the very first felony qualifier is, shall we?
You really don't understand the concept of a "cite" do you? The two links and quotes to Alabama laws above are cites, linked and quoted where you can verify for yourself the accuracy of anything I say based on them.
And I stopped paying attention to anything Ayoob said once he came out defending cops who put a man in NM Link Removed for making a rolling freakin' stop at a stop sign. Like all cops, Ayoob will defy and exceed any semblance of credulity to defend other cops for their barbaric abuses. Screw Ayoob.
Sure thing, because everyone knows that pulling a trigger is an unintentional act. Pffft. Get real.
For whatever reason, you've chosen to obsess over trying to make me wrong about a concept that's been ubiquitous in both firearms training and law for a couple of decades (at least) now. You're dead in the water, and have proven that you're willing to blow smoke about stuff of which you obviously don't have a clue in the world of its veracity or accuracy.
The Chief in Denver has been busily making excuses for cops so careless as to negligently use their firearms' rail-mounted flashlights and negligently pulling their triggers when the only safe and responsible thing to do sans having a legitimate target to point a weapon at would be to use a hand-held flashlight and leave their weapons holstered. And you're making excuses for them too by referring to any pulls of their triggers in those circumstances as "accidents."
Blues
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