Accidental shootings by police
- Thread starter ventman
- Start date
JCliff
New member
.
Don't bet on it. Training and standards vary widely between various law enforcement agencies. Some are stunningly lax, in both their initial/recurrent training and required demonstrations of proficiency.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
First of all, there is no such thing as an "accidental" shooting that isn't based in a weapon or ammunition malfunction. All unintended discharges of a firearm that were caused by human handling of the firearm are negligent discharges. Cops don't get any special dispensation because of their badges to relieve them of negligence any more than Joe Six-Pack would, or at least they shouldn't.
Second of all, when posting about a story for which there are links available, you should always either provide a link, or at least provide an excerpt from the story to give the gist of it. Since you did neither, here is a link to the story:
Gun-mounted flashlights spark concerns in wake of accidental Denver police shootings - The Denver Post
This has nothing to do with rail-mounted flashlights. This is only one of many Chiefs of Police who will look for any excuse to withhold imposing accountability to trigger-happy cops who injure or kill innocents. One of the incidents cited was a cop who was participating in shutting down a homeless camp. He used the muzzle of his handgun to pull back the flap of a tent and said he intended to push the button on his tac-light, but instead, "accidentally" pulled the trigger. No one was inside the tent and the round went into the ground, but think about this; what the Hell was he doing with his weapon drawn in the first place? If a cop can't approach a homeless encampment without their guns drawn, or can't carry a hand-held flashlight to use when it isn't appropriate to draw their weapon, then no amount of "extra" training is going to stop the spate of negligent discharges the Denver PD is apparently in the midst of, because they're just hiring cops who are too freakin' stupid to be cops! Well, on second thought, hiring stupid people to be cops is standard policy in many agencies across the country.
The Denver Post should be ashamed of themselves for allowing that Chief to spread lies about perfectly useful and safe gear such as rail-mounted lights. I hope Streamlight, Insight, SureFire and any others whom he has maligned sue the pants off him. He's a freakin' moron if he believes what he's saying, which I seriously doubt he does, and just another run-of-the-mill Thin-Blue-Liner trying to protect trigger-happy, idiot cops if he doesn't. The Post would be doing the citizens of Denver a much greater public service if they called for his ouster than by giving him a platform from which to spew excuses for criminals "serving" in his department.
Blues
jcreek
New member
The article did say the police were there to search for and arrest an armed (didn't specify with what) man and it did not say he opened the flap with the muzzle of his gun. I'm not trying to justify his actions and certainly not his horrible trigger disciple but it is important to get all of the facts straight.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I stand corrected. I was admittedly skimming, and when I saw "open the flap" and "use his tactical flashlight attached to his handgun" I put them together in my mind. I also missed the "armed" part. My bad.
So he had a valid reason to have a drawn weapon, but the fact that, "The weapon fired one time through the tent floor into the ground" is certainly consistent with the muzzle (or the head of the weapon light - same diff) being used to open the flap. You're right that it didn't state it as such, but whatever, I don't believe for a second that he went to actuate the switch on his light and "accidentally" pulled the trigger instead. He probably saw a shadow move from all the other cops shining their weapon lights through thin nylon tents, he got spooked, and fired. Admittedly conjecture, but I've had, trained with and practiced with a weapon light for the last eight or ten years, and I could never "mistake" my light switch for a trigger, nor could I "mistake" the movement and amount of muscle it takes to actuate either one.
The thing that bugs me about the piece has little to do with the specifics of the negligent discharges the Chief is basing his inquiry on though. It has to do with a Chief who doesn't fire a single one of the idiots who lost concentration while their weapon was drawn long enough to pull the trigger negligently. The piece said he disciplined all of the negligent shooters. "Punishments ranged from a four-day suspension to a written reprimand." Anyone want to bet that whoever got a suspension didn't get paid during it? If so, I got these three cups and a ball....see if you can follow the ball. A buck per chance till you run out of bucks. Ready? And anyone want to bet that if any one of us has a negligent discharge while out among the public that we'll get just a tad bit more than a written reprimand as the minimum punishment?
Blues
AndeyHall
Active member
They are better trained than that. What they do after their training is up to them. The only time I've ever used my gun light is at night quals.
Thanks for posting the link, Blues. I had a computer problem at the time.
The objection to the word accidental seems overly pedantic to me. Obviously a negligent discharge results in some thing that was not intended, therefore an accident. Both are a result of a mistake by a human.
Denver police have been involved in some very questionable shootings over the years, and a number of unnecessary brutal beatings, due, in my opinion, on a culture of macho aggression.
Blaming the lights is just silly.
The objection to the word accidental seems overly pedantic to me. Obviously a negligent discharge results in some thing that was not intended, therefore an accident. Both are a result of a mistake by a human.
Denver police have been involved in some very questionable shootings over the years, and a number of unnecessary brutal beatings, due, in my opinion, on a culture of macho aggression.
Blaming the lights is just silly.
farsidefan1
New member
I saw some numbers about a year ago comparing your odds of being shot by a law enforcement officer vs someone with a concealed weapon permit. Cops were SEVERAL times more likely to shoot an innocent.
AndeyHall
Active member
Not true where I live...cause most of ours couldn't hit the broad side of a barn
BluesStringer
Les Brers
You can call it pedantic, didactic, myopic, doctrinaire, whatever you want, I just call it the truth. There is no such thing as "accidentally" pulling a trigger. There's a legal difference between the words that we, as citizens, would rarely get the benefit of, and which LEOs routinely get the benefit of. An accident is excusable, or at least not criminal even if inexcusable to the point of having to take accountability in civil court, but in most cases, negligence is not, and as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to firearms handling, it is never excusable and always carries the strong potential of being criminal. The story you referenced talked about what I strongly believe should be treated as criminal negligence, so I referenced the way I saw it, have always seen it, and will always see it.
To tell you the truth, I'm surprised I was the first one to comment on the misuse of the word "accident," even though there was only about an hour between our posts. It's a common correction to be made because it's a common misstatement of fact.
No argument from me on that score. Most cops are assimilated into a long-standing culture of macho aggression combined with a separation from the people they ostensibly "serve," which is sometimes referred to as the "Thin Blue Line," or "Band of Brothers (and sometimes Sisters)" or "us and them" mentalities that is a big part of what will cause civil disorder one day soon.
Beyond blaming the lights being silly, pulling their triggers is criminal negligence.
Blues
It is scary to think that people that they want us to rely on when ‘it’ hits the fan may have less training than I do. This is why I am not on board with having to rely on law enforcement or government officials to protect me. This is shameful to read...but unfortunately not shocking.
AndeyHall
Active member
When the lights are alternating back and forth, it does make your target seem to move back and forth also. That being said, the instructors made it sound like shooting with blue lights is harder than no lights because of that. I call bull on that because 1) I was actually able to see and 2) my groupings were much better with blue lights than with just the weapon light or no lights.
Agreed, but they won't be charged. They will likely get two weeks suspension. With pay.
walknotinfear
New member
My 2 cents.
I think the issue is with training. More than likely these officers do not train regularly with the firearm they are carrying. Most agencies do not train officers with lights attached to the handgun. "You train how you fight."
I think the issue is with training. More than likely these officers do not train regularly with the firearm they are carrying. Most agencies do not train officers with lights attached to the handgun. "You train how you fight."
BluesStringer
Les Brers
You mean they don't teach new recruits the difference between a trigger and a light switch in the Basic JBT Academy? Good grief.
And BTW, none of the incidents cited in the piece I linked to were during a gun fight. In the two incidents (so far) this year that the Chief gave as his reason for ordering extra training, two different LEOs were chasing people with their guns drawn, and supposedly tried to turn on their flashlights at some point during the chases, and pulled their triggers instead. There were three other incidents mentioned from last year, but no details were given about the circumstances, and the link they gave for the report they got the info from is a 108-page .pdf that returned no results when I searched it for "flashlight" or "light" or even "weapon," and I'm not interested enough in official excuse-making for negligent discharges to read that whole thing to find details.
This has nothing to do with training or flashlights. The Chief could put a stop to negligent discharges with a public statement committing to a policy in his department that from this point forward, there will be no such thing as an accidental discharge of your firearm. If your weapon is negligently discharged, you will spend at least one month on unpaid suspension, be knocked back to entry-level pay, and go through remedial firearms training before you can go back on the streets. The only leniency allowable is that you can combine your 30 day unpaid suspension with the remedial training so you can get back to doing your freakin' job the minute you get off suspension.
Oh, and one last little thing; If anyone gets injured or killed due to your negligence, you will be prosecuted. Period. That is all.
Those trigger-happy idiots will learn the difference between a trigger and a light switch in short order if the Chief says something to that effect publicly. Well, they will if he says it and means it, which ain't gonna happen, because he's already made the public statement demonizing freakin' rail-mounted flashlights as being the cause of his idiot officers' negligence and excused them after nothing worse than a week's paid vacation as a "punishment."
Training......Pfffft.
Blues
Why would you think that?
Deanimator
New member
I seem to recall it being at one time, THIRTEEN times more likely.
AndeyHall
Active member
Our agency teaches us that although state law only requires x amount of rounds on target to qualify, as far as they're concerned you should practice to the point that no round misses its target. We actually had one hot head bragging because he got 59 out of 60 rounds on target. The instructor called him out and said "I don't know what you're so happy about...", pointed to the one hole off target and said "...that's one dead innocent person that YOU killed in the mall parking lot." I think our instructors are very good at getting the point across that how you practice is the best case scenario as to how you'll perform under stress, so if you're missing in practice, you'll miss when **** gets real.
BC1
,
In 2008 the city of Newburgh, NY was considering putting a video gun-cam on the officers service weapon. The camera activates when the weapon leaves the holster. Now, according to the FBI Newburgh is the ninth most dangerous city in America, per capita. The police are routinely shot at, attacked and peppered with rocks and bottles when they respond to a call. A local civil rights attorney is on a non-stop attack suing the police at every turn. LE are very concerned about responding to a call. I grew up in that city. It's bad.
The gun-cam company was located in upstate NY. The main financing for the company came from an attorney who was head of the republican party in the county. The program was endorsed and heavily pushed by a local republican state senator working in concert with his party boss... the financing behind the company. The ankle bone is definitely connected to the shinbone.
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There was much concern that a LEO might hesitate to draw or use his gun when it really should be drawn. It's important to note there are not even cameras in the patrol cars. We asked to test one of the cameras. We attached it to a Glock 17 and put it through some shooting. We tried to simulate police actions in responding to a violent confrontation. We drew and fired numerous times and also ran and fired with the gun. The results were laughable. When drawing and firing the camera showed the ground, my foot, my leg, blurry movement and then fixation on the target. When the trigger was pulled the gun recoiled and the camera jumped to the trees, upward and to the left. In another test while running the camera showed only blurry movement.
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This senator pushed his crony's product despite resistance by the county Sheriff and city police. It eventually was scratched.
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The gun-cam company was located in upstate NY. The main financing for the company came from an attorney who was head of the republican party in the county. The program was endorsed and heavily pushed by a local republican state senator working in concert with his party boss... the financing behind the company. The ankle bone is definitely connected to the shinbone.
.
There was much concern that a LEO might hesitate to draw or use his gun when it really should be drawn. It's important to note there are not even cameras in the patrol cars. We asked to test one of the cameras. We attached it to a Glock 17 and put it through some shooting. We tried to simulate police actions in responding to a violent confrontation. We drew and fired numerous times and also ran and fired with the gun. The results were laughable. When drawing and firing the camera showed the ground, my foot, my leg, blurry movement and then fixation on the target. When the trigger was pulled the gun recoiled and the camera jumped to the trees, upward and to the left. In another test while running the camera showed only blurry movement.
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This senator pushed his crony's product despite resistance by the county Sheriff and city police. It eventually was scratched.
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