9MM VS 40 SW Caliber
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CharlesMorrison
Banned
.......and its the only caliber Conrad is allowed to have!
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Well, better late than never; so, even though it's December, I'm going to reply! This is an interesting question! One that I’ve often thought about, and researched on several different occasions. I’ve been handling all different sorts of firearms for more than 60 years. (Yes, I’m an older gunman.)
Over the past decade my usual EDC pistols have been either a Glock Model 21, or a Glock Model 19. Long experience with handguns has taught me that the ignition and firing characteristics of 45 ACP, or 9 x19mm cartridges are equally controllable; however, the ignition and firing characteristics of 40 S&W cartridges are different, and more difficult to control - Especially during rapid-fire events.
The particular problem with Glock pistols - and their well documented tendency to explode in 40 caliber - is that, first and foremost, the Glock polymer frame platform was originally designed to function (more or less perfectly) with 9 x 19mm ammunition. Every other cartridge chambering that Glocks are currently manufactured in, today, is an offshoot and adjunct of the original 9 x 19mm design.
The firearm marketplace (and the world) has changed a very great deal since I, first, started shooting all the way back in the early 1950’s. Today, everybody’s plastic pistols are markedly different from the precisely built, tightly fitted, smooth cycling, steel (and alloy) pistols that I spent most of my life with up to, and until, about 1988. (When Glocks really began to take over.)
Quite frankly, up until the early 90’s I never thought I’d see an American pistolero laud any firearm with anything less than a superlative trigger; BUT, times have changed; and, today, all different sorts of pistols with genuinely crappy triggers - like you’d never find in an old blue-steel Smith & Wesson - are the norm rather than the exception. (Go figure!)
Differences in slide cycling, barrel locking and unlocking, frame-to-slide fit, and newly introduced polymer-frame vibration are much more significant - and of potentially greater consequence - on today’s plastic pistols than such considerations ever were, before, on the older all metal designs.
Not having spent the last two decades on a desert island I am aware that popular opinion on Glock (and other) plastic-frame pistols is such that it’s, ‘internet gun forum sacrilege’ for anyone to assert that Glocks (and other plastic-frame pistols) are anything less than perfect; and I’m willing to acknowledge that Glocks do and have produced absolutely fantastic fired round counts - Counts that were previously unattainable!
Intrinsic accuracy issues aside, any plastic pistol’s extended duty cycle should be weighted against its equal characteristic of being inherently less safe than any of the historical well recognized steel-frame pistols. If anything is off on a more susceptible, more prone to catastrophic failure, plastic-frame pistol: If the frame vibrates too much, if the barrel doesn’t lock or unlock quite as it should, if certain types of (otherwise) conventional ammunition don’t perform consistently as well as they should, then the pistol’s, ‘kaBOOM!’ factor goes, disproportionately, way up!
(The word, ‘kaBOOM!’, novel as it is, was invented and added to the American firearms lexicon solely because of Glock pistols’ spotty performance record.)
Yesterday’s pistoleros required impeccable accuracy along with flawless mechanical performance at absolutely minimal personal risk; and, while it might appear that nothing has changed, in fact, everything has! Today’s gunmen fire more shots, less precisely, and less reliably than at any other time I’m able to remember.
The pistoleros of my youth were marksmen; the pistoleros of my old age are combat gunmen. We used to strive to shoot out silver dollar-sized holes in our targets; but, nowadays, a pockmarked 7 inch circle more than suffices. (Hey, I do it too - OK!)
When you consider the reduced safety factor of plastic-frame pistols and, then, add in the ignition and pressure characteristics of 10mm (including 40 S&W) ammunition, what the typical G-22/G-23 pistol shooter is holding in his hand is a less safe, more difficult to control, BUT otherwise generally reliable handgun.
Different plastic pistols kaBOOM! for different reasons. Attributing just one cause to just one Glock model can become very confusing; e.g., 40 caliber Glocks have exploded because of such reasons as: excessive peak ignition pressure caused by certain gun powders, excessive firing chamber rebates, excessive frame vibration, and impingement between lock block fingers, and the bottom of the slide. Early 45 ACP Glocks used to go, ‘kaBOOM!’ because the trigger bars were improperly constructed, chamber rebates were excessive, and properly synchronized slide cycling could become sporadically impeded.
(On my G-21’s, the slides would occasionally fail to close; and, as many of us already know, the Glock design is capable of firing a round while the slide to barrel lockup is still as much as 3/32” open!)
There’s another kind of danger that many Glock owners have had to face: The danger of having their Glocks not work properly when they need them to! Historically, at different times and for different reasons, I’m able to remember Glock Model: 22’s, 23’s, 21’s, 36’s, and 30’s that have all demonstrated both failure-to-fire, and failure-to-feed hang-ups - Some of which led, or could lead, to kaBOOM! events.
None of these criticisms are meant to say that you shouldn’t buy anybody’s plastic-frame pistol. I, myself, carry a 12 year old, 3rd generation, Glock Model 21 (That’s had a good 40,000 rounds fired through it!) around with me every single day! The proviso (the caveat) is that I’ve lived through so many, ‘Glock problems’ over the past 12 years that I have been, more or less, forced to become a savvy and highly skilled - but, still, not factory certified - Glock armorer. (No big deal, I was already a half-decent gunsmith to begin with.)
Consequently, with the exception of a (somewhat) marginally-performing Glock Model 19(RTF2) with which I’m still having minor BTF problems, all of my Glocks work very well. If I had to decide which Glock to buy, today, I’m 100% certain that it would be one of the 9 x 19mm pistols - Probably another G-19, a G-34, or (maybe) a G-17. You might ask, 'Why' no 45 ACP? Because I've already got two of them - No other reason!
Here I should, perhaps, confess that, whenever possible, I avoid using 40 and 10 millimeter pistols. I can (and have) shot them well; but they slow me down; and I find all 10mm’s (long and short) to be considerably more difficult to control well AT SPEED! I’ve always been more accurate, and faster with either a 9mm, or a 45 ACP pistol - especially during rapid-fire events where quick and easy front sight recapture made a big difference.
Over the past decade my usual EDC pistols have been either a Glock Model 21, or a Glock Model 19. Long experience with handguns has taught me that the ignition and firing characteristics of 45 ACP, or 9 x19mm cartridges are equally controllable; however, the ignition and firing characteristics of 40 S&W cartridges are different, and more difficult to control - Especially during rapid-fire events.
The particular problem with Glock pistols - and their well documented tendency to explode in 40 caliber - is that, first and foremost, the Glock polymer frame platform was originally designed to function (more or less perfectly) with 9 x 19mm ammunition. Every other cartridge chambering that Glocks are currently manufactured in, today, is an offshoot and adjunct of the original 9 x 19mm design.
The firearm marketplace (and the world) has changed a very great deal since I, first, started shooting all the way back in the early 1950’s. Today, everybody’s plastic pistols are markedly different from the precisely built, tightly fitted, smooth cycling, steel (and alloy) pistols that I spent most of my life with up to, and until, about 1988. (When Glocks really began to take over.)
Quite frankly, up until the early 90’s I never thought I’d see an American pistolero laud any firearm with anything less than a superlative trigger; BUT, times have changed; and, today, all different sorts of pistols with genuinely crappy triggers - like you’d never find in an old blue-steel Smith & Wesson - are the norm rather than the exception. (Go figure!)
Differences in slide cycling, barrel locking and unlocking, frame-to-slide fit, and newly introduced polymer-frame vibration are much more significant - and of potentially greater consequence - on today’s plastic pistols than such considerations ever were, before, on the older all metal designs.
Not having spent the last two decades on a desert island I am aware that popular opinion on Glock (and other) plastic-frame pistols is such that it’s, ‘internet gun forum sacrilege’ for anyone to assert that Glocks (and other plastic-frame pistols) are anything less than perfect; and I’m willing to acknowledge that Glocks do and have produced absolutely fantastic fired round counts - Counts that were previously unattainable!
Intrinsic accuracy issues aside, any plastic pistol’s extended duty cycle should be weighted against its equal characteristic of being inherently less safe than any of the historical well recognized steel-frame pistols. If anything is off on a more susceptible, more prone to catastrophic failure, plastic-frame pistol: If the frame vibrates too much, if the barrel doesn’t lock or unlock quite as it should, if certain types of (otherwise) conventional ammunition don’t perform consistently as well as they should, then the pistol’s, ‘kaBOOM!’ factor goes, disproportionately, way up!
(The word, ‘kaBOOM!’, novel as it is, was invented and added to the American firearms lexicon solely because of Glock pistols’ spotty performance record.)
Yesterday’s pistoleros required impeccable accuracy along with flawless mechanical performance at absolutely minimal personal risk; and, while it might appear that nothing has changed, in fact, everything has! Today’s gunmen fire more shots, less precisely, and less reliably than at any other time I’m able to remember.
The pistoleros of my youth were marksmen; the pistoleros of my old age are combat gunmen. We used to strive to shoot out silver dollar-sized holes in our targets; but, nowadays, a pockmarked 7 inch circle more than suffices. (Hey, I do it too - OK!)
When you consider the reduced safety factor of plastic-frame pistols and, then, add in the ignition and pressure characteristics of 10mm (including 40 S&W) ammunition, what the typical G-22/G-23 pistol shooter is holding in his hand is a less safe, more difficult to control, BUT otherwise generally reliable handgun.
Different plastic pistols kaBOOM! for different reasons. Attributing just one cause to just one Glock model can become very confusing; e.g., 40 caliber Glocks have exploded because of such reasons as: excessive peak ignition pressure caused by certain gun powders, excessive firing chamber rebates, excessive frame vibration, and impingement between lock block fingers, and the bottom of the slide. Early 45 ACP Glocks used to go, ‘kaBOOM!’ because the trigger bars were improperly constructed, chamber rebates were excessive, and properly synchronized slide cycling could become sporadically impeded.
(On my G-21’s, the slides would occasionally fail to close; and, as many of us already know, the Glock design is capable of firing a round while the slide to barrel lockup is still as much as 3/32” open!)
There’s another kind of danger that many Glock owners have had to face: The danger of having their Glocks not work properly when they need them to! Historically, at different times and for different reasons, I’m able to remember Glock Model: 22’s, 23’s, 21’s, 36’s, and 30’s that have all demonstrated both failure-to-fire, and failure-to-feed hang-ups - Some of which led, or could lead, to kaBOOM! events.
None of these criticisms are meant to say that you shouldn’t buy anybody’s plastic-frame pistol. I, myself, carry a 12 year old, 3rd generation, Glock Model 21 (That’s had a good 40,000 rounds fired through it!) around with me every single day! The proviso (the caveat) is that I’ve lived through so many, ‘Glock problems’ over the past 12 years that I have been, more or less, forced to become a savvy and highly skilled - but, still, not factory certified - Glock armorer. (No big deal, I was already a half-decent gunsmith to begin with.)
Consequently, with the exception of a (somewhat) marginally-performing Glock Model 19(RTF2) with which I’m still having minor BTF problems, all of my Glocks work very well. If I had to decide which Glock to buy, today, I’m 100% certain that it would be one of the 9 x 19mm pistols - Probably another G-19, a G-34, or (maybe) a G-17. You might ask, 'Why' no 45 ACP? Because I've already got two of them - No other reason!
Here I should, perhaps, confess that, whenever possible, I avoid using 40 and 10 millimeter pistols. I can (and have) shot them well; but they slow me down; and I find all 10mm’s (long and short) to be considerably more difficult to control well AT SPEED! I’ve always been more accurate, and faster with either a 9mm, or a 45 ACP pistol - especially during rapid-fire events where quick and easy front sight recapture made a big difference.
N R A
New member
Also the smaller the caliber , the easier it is to make quick and accurate multiple shots. So the whole caliber issue is really a mass of catch 22 issues. No wonder we all have such a variety of opinions.
As i have this wonderful master plan to never use my guns to shoot anyone (wish me luck with that) i in part pick guns that for me, are fun to shoot and challenging. For me in the Glock calibers, those are 10mm, .40S&W, and .357SIG. 9 is just a bore (pun intended) to shoot in comparison.
As i have this wonderful master plan to never use my guns to shoot anyone (wish me luck with that) i in part pick guns that for me, are fun to shoot and challenging. For me in the Glock calibers, those are 10mm, .40S&W, and .357SIG. 9 is just a bore (pun intended) to shoot in comparison.
XD40scinNC
New member
Handgun are not man stoppers (aside from a few true hand cannons that are impractical carry's). Rifles and shotguns can be man stoppers.
Many people have received non-survivable wounds, yet continue to fight for several minutes.
For personal defense (the only place where a strong case can be made for the .40): The differences in terminal performance on humans between a 9mm, .40, and even .45 are pretty marginal. You will be able to shoot the 9mm faster, and perhaps more accurately, than the .40. If you buy the current view that handgun bullets just poke holes, is an extra .04" of hole width worth the tradeoff of fewer holes in total (due to both capacity and rapidity of fire)? Modern 9mm SD/service ammo meets FBI standards and is plenty potent. If you don't agree, the answer is to move off the service-caliber power band entirely and go to a 10mm or magnum revolver cartridges or the like.
Hunting: Neither round is a good choice for hunting, so no points for either.
Practice: Strong win for the 9mm here, from both cost of ammo and for development of a flinch-free shooting form.
Gun games: 9mm is the better cartridge for IDPA; .40 gets to major in USPSA.
Safety: The 9mm, and guns chambered in it, are very "safe," insofar as a cartridge can be safe. The .40 (although pretty safe when you consider the vast number of rounds of it fired every year) has some issues. Bullet setback quickly leads to a compressed, over-pressured load in a .40, which can result in case rupture and ka-booms.
Hunting: Neither round is a good choice for hunting, so no points for either.
Practice: Strong win for the 9mm here, from both cost of ammo and for development of a flinch-free shooting form.
Gun games: 9mm is the better cartridge for IDPA; .40 gets to major in USPSA.
Safety: The 9mm, and guns chambered in it, are very "safe," insofar as a cartridge can be safe. The .40 (although pretty safe when you consider the vast number of rounds of it fired every year) has some issues. Bullet setback quickly leads to a compressed, over-pressured load in a .40, which can result in case rupture and ka-booms.
XD40scinNC
New member
Both 9 and 40 are in my carry rotation, and I'm pretty damn sure any bad guy would choose to be shot with neither of them.
With all the ballistic gel testing that is around and the data we see from the streets in shooting these two do not match up.
Taylor Knock Out Power has been respected over the years as a great comparison of two cartridges, one to another.
Here is a link where you can compare two loads same caliber or compare different calibers.
Link Removed
Many hunters look at the Taylor KO when selecting a load for game. Others have used it for picking a caliber for self protection.
At least it can give you something to think about.
Taylor Knock Out Power has been respected over the years as a great comparison of two cartridges, one to another.
Here is a link where you can compare two loads same caliber or compare different calibers.
Link Removed
Many hunters look at the Taylor KO when selecting a load for game. Others have used it for picking a caliber for self protection.
At least it can give you something to think about.
N R A
New member
Thank you for that tool. Very great post Sir!!!!!!
You are most welcome.
r1derbike
New member
Now I know where Chinese Hot Mustard comes from...
schadenfreude
New member
Which between a 9MM and 40 SW Caliber,do you personally prefer?
Either is fine with me.
The question of increased effectiveness amongst the common service calibers is not about equipment, but rather about mindset and training.
Either is fine with me.
The question of increased effectiveness amongst the common service calibers is not about equipment, but rather about mindset and training.
You are about 10% right.
schadenfreude
New member
Sure, Stan, because you have all of the answers. :wacko:
N R A
New member
Sometimes the threat will die later, but is still shooting now. In a case like that, two things stop a threat effectively, a head shot and breaking a hip bone so the threat goes down and you can get away from the threat.
Head shots are good, but hard to make under stress. If you are a good shot, any caliber head shot will do. Smaller calibers like .380 will not be effective in dropping a threat by shooting a hip.
If this were a cooking forum, we could all post as experts on cracking eggs, and debate how best to do it. In a gun forum talking about shooting people, thank goodness few of us have any first hand expirence in the concepts we debate. I have never shot anyone, never hope to.
billt
Banned
For years I searched for a legitimate reason to get into the .40 S&W. I never could find one. There is nothing a .40 will accomplish that a 9 MM or .45 ACP won't. If I require more power in a handgun than either of those 2 can produce, I'll go to a Magnum caliber revolver. The .40 has always been a solution looking for a problem to solve.
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