gunnerbob
PEW Professional
Unfortunately, he's got a very good point.
Can I Use Deadly Force to Defend My Home?
- Thread starter opsspec1991
- Start date
Unfortunately, he's got a very good point.
N R A
New member
Well good luck with that. The guy you shot, his lawyer team found this thread, and found your admission you can blast away because you already have a lawyer. It will be a little like saying Mark Ferman never called blacks the N word.
BC1
,
Absolutely!!!! And if he doesn't care about the dog barking or alarm he intends to harm someone.
BC1
,
Yup. My best friend is a criminal defense attorney. He's taught at some of my PP classes. During class I ask him, "I've been charged with homicide for shooting an intruder. I need an attorney. Can you help me?" His answer shocks people... "sure, I need a $20K retainer and when that runs out it's $225 per hour out of court and $300 per hour in-court. You'll also be paying he expenses." That case may run $60K in legal bills and he could lose. There could also be additional federal charges or a civil action to defend. The result? Say goodbye to the equity in your home, your retirement plan or kids college money.
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Only use a gun when the threat is so great that one must ruin their life to save theirs or anothers.
BC1
,
That's not true in most states.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
You have that exactly backwards. Most states now have some form of castle doctrine law that allows for the presumption of a threat being present when someone breaks into an occupied dwelling. It's not clear-cut between "right to shoot" or "no right to shoot," but implicit in most states' "presumed threat" language is that the right to shoot does exist in break-ins without having to give the intruder time to state or display an actual threat to life or well-being. I believe the states with such laws is in the 26 to 28 range at this time.
For me, no matter what the law says, my trigger only gets pulled when I determine it's time. In all scenarios I can imagine, my "trigger-point" is reached shortly after the legal point is reached, but I will not say in "all" cases I will be acting within or outside of the law. I leave it open to the possibility that I may act outside the law only because of the limitations of the human mind to imagine every possible scenario where a citizen may need to fire a weapon. If I know I can't imagine every possible scenario, and I'm pretty damn creative, then I know for sure that agenda-driven hacks making laws to control my self-defense tactics neither have the creativity nor the inclination to imagine them all for me. The law is only a predictor of how one can expect to be treated after a gun battle. The state can push one interpretation of any law it wishes to, against the side intended to protect the shooter's rights if someone, or some group, decides such a prosecution serves their purposes over the rights of the shooter. I don't look at the law as either being "on my side" or not, it is literally never on my side, so it's not part of the criteria I use to plan my home defense tactics. Still, the plans I've made exceed the standards set in law in most, if not all, cases. Let God and your conscience be your guide.
Blues
I’m not an expert on this subject but I am smart enough to know this is probably a discussion that you’d be better off having with a lawyer than on the internet. Having said that here are some things that I have picked up by observation and talking with people who are experts over the years.
First, if you ever are involved in a defensive shooting you are going to lose all control over your life for at least the next several months. The shooting is going to be investigated and the police the DA and possibly a jury are going to decide if you were justified not you.
Your social media presence is going to be investigated and any post you ever made declaring yourself to be a sheep dog or stating that it’s to your benefit that only one person survives to give the police their side of the story is very likely to come back and bite you. That’s a big reason I’m careful not to discuss what I would do on the internet.
The whole “I need to speak to my lawyer before I make any statement” is all fine and good but at some point you will have to make a statement. You had better be able to clearly and specifically articulate why you pulled the trigger (and on a side note your explanation had better match the physical evidence) as in “I woke up in the middle of the night, that man was in my home. I ordered him to leave and instead he came towards me yelling threats. I believed he intended to attack and kill me, I was forced to fire to save my life and the lives of my family.”
Really that last paragraph should have been the first because (IMO) if you start out with a clear factual reason why you shot the rest of the stuff is far more likely to pan out in your favor. So I would suggest that you live with the mindset that if you ever draw your weapon you are going to have to justify your actions and conduct yourself accordingly
First, if you ever are involved in a defensive shooting you are going to lose all control over your life for at least the next several months. The shooting is going to be investigated and the police the DA and possibly a jury are going to decide if you were justified not you.
Your social media presence is going to be investigated and any post you ever made declaring yourself to be a sheep dog or stating that it’s to your benefit that only one person survives to give the police their side of the story is very likely to come back and bite you. That’s a big reason I’m careful not to discuss what I would do on the internet.
The whole “I need to speak to my lawyer before I make any statement” is all fine and good but at some point you will have to make a statement. You had better be able to clearly and specifically articulate why you pulled the trigger (and on a side note your explanation had better match the physical evidence) as in “I woke up in the middle of the night, that man was in my home. I ordered him to leave and instead he came towards me yelling threats. I believed he intended to attack and kill me, I was forced to fire to save my life and the lives of my family.”
Really that last paragraph should have been the first because (IMO) if you start out with a clear factual reason why you shot the rest of the stuff is far more likely to pan out in your favor. So I would suggest that you live with the mindset that if you ever draw your weapon you are going to have to justify your actions and conduct yourself accordingly
For those who don't know nogods is a lawyer, you just got some damn good free legal advice that you should probably print out and tape to your computer monitor
BC1
,
Actually you don't have to ever make a statement. And sometimes an attorney prefers this. Why get locked into anything when you have the right to remain silent. The prosecutor must make a case against you that survives reasonable doubt. I can't think of 12 jurors who will hang an honest, law abiding citizen who used a gun to stop an intruder in the middle of the night. Especially if there were kids in the house.
N R A
New member
Most states are going to run you through a leagle battle that will bankrupt you, and your choice to shoot another human. Home, gone. Cars, gone. Retirement funds, gone. College funds for kids, gone. Every state is different. OJ moved to Florida because he was sheltering his income from his x's parents. That move was only very limited on the success scale, but it was better than loosing everything. His vacation in Vegas has turned out to be a rather extended one. Not saying OJ was guilty or inocent, but once he got his first bill from his first lawyer his fortune was gone.
Again, I’m not a lawyer but my understanding is that self defense is an affirmative defense.
You’re admitting to homicide (or at least to attempted homicide) which is illegal but claiming that because of extenuating circumstances (the guy was trying to kill you) you were justified in the action you took.
At some point you’re going to have to tell the why (the guy was trying to kill me) you were justified in the action that you took.
The only time I could see making no statement at all under any circumstance is when you weren’t justified then you just shut up and plead the fifth
Please present evidence that this is normally the case. I can think of several cases (Joe Horn tops the list) that never even made it to a grand jury
longslide10
New member
If someone were in my house they will be shot regardless if they are taking a TV, DVD player, computer or what have you. They won't be there to have tea and play card games, they have criminal intent and I will assume weapons. I have the right to defend my home and property and will not take a chance of being injured in my own home. You come in uninvited (obviously unknown people) expect to leave in a body bag. There is such a thing called the castle doctrine by the way.
Nightmare45
NRA LIFE MEMBER
I have no statement to make that is for attorney, once you walk pass the numerous no trespassing signs you made the choice to risk your life.
Deanimator
New member
Not in Ohio. In home or vehicle I have the rebuttable presumption of justification.
Don't like that? Stay the hell out of my home, and don't try to carjack me.
BC1
,
In many states it's not an affirmative defense but rather "defense of justification." And at no time must you say what you did or why you did it. The prosecutor must make a case against you without your statements. He must show why the person in your bedroom during the night didn't intend harm. And it doesn't matter much in some states anyway. In NYS deadly force can be used to thwart a burglary. "Thwart" a burglary.
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You don't plead the fifth. That's to protect you from self incrimination. You just don't speak at all. You aren't required to make a statement or testify. It's the innocent who need an attorney. Let the guilty lie for themselves.
.
However, what I recommend in PP classes is to simply tell LE that you have nothing to say at this time but will gladly answer questions after you've had a chance to retain an attorney. Then shut you mouth. Not another word. Not even casual conversation. Nothing!
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I agree with the rationale and premise of what you say, but in the heat of the moment, unless trained and refreshed regularly, the best laid plans of men spew out in volumes approximately commensurate with the volumes of their unmanaged adrenaline dumps. Even regular training refreshes are no guarantee that any one shooter will be able to manage the effects of adrenaline, which, for those who haven't given it much thought, are anything but helpful to you maintaining a clear enough mind to follow through with taking BC's advice above, as unquestionably good advice as it is. Adrenaline dumps will happen in an extreme self-defense scenario. There is no "controlling" them. The best anyone can prepare for is how to manage them. Unless you get regular training through being a cop or soldier, it's going to cost a pretty penny to keep such training current, and my best guess is that most folks who carry weapons regularly, never even take the first course towards preparing themselves for dealing with adrenaline. I hope I'm wrong. I've taken quite a bit of private training, and quite a few refresher courses too, but the last one was more than a few years ago and I'm WAY over-due for following my own advice, which is why I know how difficult it will be to follow BC's advice.
Blues
