I ask why?

[Steon]

As I've said. I started carrying about 14 years ago, and between this thread, and several others in these forums actually, I've slowly been learning a lot in the past year concerning rights and how to protect them.

I started by joining the NRA last year, and just renewed earlier this month for this year.

I liked what I read about making sure I have a covert recording device and I do have an electronic recorder I can slip in a pocket. When I start going to OC again I'll just make sure I have it on me with fresh batteries.

I'm not the same person I was 14 years ago...

 

[45doubletap]

As I've said. I started carrying about 14 years ago, and between this thread, and several others in these forums actually, I've slowly been learning a lot in the past year concerning rights and how to protect them.

I started by joining the NRA last year, and just renewed earlier this month for this year.

I liked what I read about making sure I have a covert recording device and I do have an electronic recorder I can slip in a pocket. When I start going to OC again I'll just make sure I have it on me with fresh batteries.

I'm not the same person I was 14 years ago...

Just a heads up...Recording audio of ANYBODY without making them aware is a serious offense in PA. Whether phone calls, or person to person it's illegal. I'm only speaking about audio.

Don't know what state you're in but just make sure you check the laws before doing that. Not critical of your thinking at all but just want to give you a heads up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rhino]

Just a heads up...Recording audio of ANYBODY without making them aware is a serious offense in PA. Whether phone calls, or person to person it's illegal. I'm only speaking about audio.

Don't know what state you're in but just make sure you check the laws before doing that. Not critical of your thinking at all but just want to give you a heads up.

That's not completely true. While PA does have one of the more strict laws covering the recording of conversations, it does not apply to non-wire transmitted, public conversations where there is no expectation of privacy (Pa.C.S. § 5701, Pa.C.S. § 5702 and Pa.C.S. § 5703). It also doesn't apply to many law enforcement scenarios. As with most strict laws of that type, PA's law probably wouldn't withstand a court challenge. But as with most such cases, none of us here is likely anxious to be the person pressing that court challenge since it would involve lots of time, lots of effort and lots of money. But since Steon is from Indiana, I doubt he's that concerned about it.

 

[45doubletap]

That's not completely true. While PA does have one of the more strict laws covering the recording of conversations, it does not apply to non-wire transmitted, public conversations where there is no expectation of privacy (Pa.C.S. § 5701, Pa.C.S. § 5702 and Pa.C.S. § 5703). It also doesn't apply to many law enforcement scenarios. As with most strict laws of that type, PA's law probably wouldn't withstand a court challenge. But as with most such cases, none of us here is likely anxious to be the person pressing that court challenge since it would involve lots of time, lots of effort and lots of money. But since Steon is from Indiana, I doubt he's that concerned about it.

I'm not citing cases and statutes just making a point that it is possible to create a bigger sh&tstorm. Just be aware of your own states laws. PA's wiretap laws get insanely complex, much more than what's PA title 18.

(as far as LE scenarios I can tell you this much, if I am wearing an audio device and pull over a vehicle, I better mention to them they are being recorded...that thing stays at HQ. )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bikenut]

Just as it is imperative to know and understand all the firearms laws and any other laws that affect firearms like trespass laws before carrying a gun.. it is also imperative to know and understand all the recording laws before recording people and/or conversations.

If someone has any questions or concerns about the recording laws of their State or any State they will be recording in.... please consult an attorney and get the straight scoop because making a legal mistake while carrying a gun or while recording can be catastrophic.

 

[walknotinfear]

I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.
1) They want people to look at them.
2) They are under the impression that open carry will deter crime. (I am not sure if there is fact or statistics on this)
3) That they are making a point and want everyone to know that they have the right to exercise there 2nd amendment.
4) They hope that some police officer will question them on why they are carrying a firearm. Now I think this is the biggest reason younger people who carry open carry. I have seen a ton of U Tube videos of young people carrying openly, than video taping it, wasting a ton of time arguing with the police, and for what? Just to make a point and educate the police officer that they have the legal right to carry openly, really, don't (to the u tube videos of open carry) you have better things to do with your time.

I know there are states that allow open carry and if that is your choice than go ahead, knock yourself out.


If I was allowed to carry open here in Florida I would not. I would not feel safe. I never felt comfortable when I was in uniform (law enforcement) when I had people standing behind me. I would catch myself resting my elbow on my firearm just in case someone who hated cops tried to make a move. So I would never carry open carry as a private citizen and that is my preference. I would rather no one know I had a full size handgun on me with a total of 31 rounds of ammunition. I don't need people looking at me "Look at me, look at me, I have a gun", I don't have the time to stand on the side of the road, being detained while I try to educate a rookie officer on the laws (if I lived in a state that allowed open carry). I guess it is hard for me to argue this because the sun shine state does not allow open carry but I am glad they do not permit it.

 

[Steon]

Just as it is imperative to know and understand all the firearms laws and any other laws that affect firearms like trespass laws before carrying a gun.. it is also imperative to know and understand all the recording laws before recording people and/or conversations.

Definately something to keep in mind and check into. I BELIEVE, but need to verify, that if you are somewhere where you have no expectation of privacy, such as on a roadside, you can not expect privacy. Besides, it would most likely be being used in my DEFENSE.

 

[Eidolon]

If yes-“Officer, for suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?” If he says, “Because you have a gun” he’s either being evasive or he’s ignorant. Either way, shut up. Don’t talk. If he doesn’t answer, ask again. Don’t say anything except to ask that one question. If he knows he’s full of hot air, he’ll probably walk away first.

I agree with all of the post except this. If a cop approaches you the first thing you should ask is Am I free to go? / Am I being detained? And as mainsail says if they tell you you’re free to go do so immediately. Don’t say another word just walk away.

If the cop doesn’t tell you you’re free to go don’t ask why he’s detaining you don’t ask anything just tell him “I want to speak to a lawyer before I answer any questions.” and stop talking. Why he’s detaining you is irrelevant your lawyer can figure that out later.

In any non consensual police encounter the less you say the better off you are and if you are being detained you are in a nonconsensual encounter. The reason the cop is detaining you is he hopes to get you to give him probable cause and the best way for you to do that is to talk.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.
1) They want people to look at them.
2) They are under the impression that open carry will deter crime. (I am not sure if there is fact or statistics on this)
3) That they are making a point and want everyone to know that they have the right to exercise there 2nd amendment.
4) They hope that some police officer will question them on why they are carrying a firearm. Now I think this is the biggest reason younger people who carry open carry. I have seen a ton of U Tube videos of young people carrying openly, than video taping it, wasting a ton of time arguing with the police, and for what? Just to make a point and educate the police officer that they have the legal right to carry openly, really, don't (to the u tube videos of open carry) you have better things to do with your time.

I know there are states that allow open carry and if that is your choice than go ahead, knock yourself out.


If I was allowed to carry open here in Florida I would not. I would not feel safe. I never felt comfortable when I was in uniform (law enforcement) when I had people standing behind me. I would catch myself resting my elbow on my firearm just in case someone who hated cops tried to make a move. So I would never carry open carry as a private citizen and that is my preference. I would rather no one know I had a full size handgun on me with a total of 31 rounds of ammunition. I don't need people looking at me "Look at me, look at me, I have a gun", I don't have the time to stand on the side of the road, being detained while I try to educate a rookie officer on the laws (if I lived in a state that allowed open carry). I guess it is hard for me to argue this because the sun shine state does not allow open carry but I am glad they do not permit it.

I am embarrassed and saddened you are an American.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Rhino]

Definately something to keep in mind and check into. I BELIEVE, but need to verify, that if you are somewhere where you have no expectation of privacy, such as on a roadside, you can not expect privacy. Besides, it would most likely be being used in my DEFENSE.

Never hurts to be careful. But like 45doubletap cautioned, even the laws on public conversations can be quite convoluted. And even being technically in the right doesn't prevent people from being arrested, charged or prosecuted either. You could find yourself facing a challenge you didn't anticipate, so knowing which laws may have grey areas, and what that might mean for you, is always a good idea.

 

[Drzzit]

I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.
1) They want people to look at them.
2) They are under the impression that open carry will deter crime. (I am not sure if there is fact or statistics on this)
3) That they are making a point and want everyone to know that they have the right to exercise there 2nd amendment.
4) They hope that some police officer will question them on why they are carrying a firearm. Now I think this is the biggest reason younger people who carry open carry. I have seen a ton of U Tube videos of young people carrying openly, than video taping it, wasting a ton of time arguing with the police, and for what? Just to make a point and educate the police officer that they have the legal right to carry openly, really, don't (to the u tube videos of open carry) you have better things to do with your time.

I know there are states that allow open carry and if that is your choice than go ahead, knock yourself out.


If I was allowed to carry open here in Florida I would not. I would not feel safe. I never felt comfortable when I was in uniform (law enforcement) when I had people standing behind me. I would catch myself resting my elbow on my firearm just in case someone who hated cops tried to make a move. So I would never carry open carry as a private citizen and that is my preference. I would rather no one know I had a full size handgun on me with a total of 31 rounds of ammunition. I don't need people looking at me "Look at me, look at me, I have a gun", I don't have the time to stand on the side of the road, being detained while I try to educate a rookie officer on the laws (if I lived in a state that allowed open carry). I guess it is hard for me to argue this because the sun shine state does not allow open carry but I am glad they do not permit it.

He was a LEO, now I see why He's against OC. Guess He can't stand seeing the masses carrying a weapon openly. It would have put him out of a job not having all those "victims" being preyed upon. Seeing that most OCers would have deterred the crime in the first place.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[NavyLCDR]

If I was allowed to carry open here in Florida I would not. I would not feel safe. I never felt comfortable when I was in uniform (law enforcement) when I had people standing behind me. I would catch myself resting my elbow on my firearm just in case someone who hated cops tried to make a move. So I would never carry open carry as a private citizen and that is my preference. I would rather no one know I had a full size handgun on me with a total of 31 rounds of ammunition. I don't need people looking at me "Look at me, look at me, I have a gun", I don't have the time to stand on the side of the road, being detained while I try to educate a rookie officer on the laws (if I lived in a state that allowed open carry). I guess it is hard for me to argue this because the sun shine state does not allow open carry but I am glad they do not permit it.

For someone who chooses the screen name of "walknotinfear" your post suggests that you do on a daily basis.... how sad.

Let's see, as a former cop, one reason you would not open carry as a civilian is because you feel like your kind, cops, would harass you for your legal behavior, and you just don't have time for their harassment. Interesting.....

And, of course, all this opinion coming from an "instructor" of some sorts....

 

[jhodge83]

since folks always want "evidence" of someone targeting someone because they are open carrying, i have some. whether it's taken as chance or lack of SA on the "victims" part, oh well. i've OC'd before in NC and would do so in SC if we had it. i'd prefer to carry my .45 instead of my .380 all the time, but weather/work clothing does not permit that to happen.

as i was saying, just presenting the "evidence" in here instead of starting a new thread. two different instances.

Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun

 

[Mainsail]

If the cop doesn’t tell you you’re free to go don’t ask why he’s detaining you don’t ask anything just tell him “I want to speak to a lawyer before I answer any questions.” and stop talking.

The reason I suggest asking why he is detaining you is because there is a chance he actually has reasonable articulable suspicion that you were involved in a crime- and it may have nothing to do with your OC at all. I've seen the dragnet they put down when a bank gets robbed- nobody is going anywhere until the officer is satisfied you aren't involved. Digging your heels in and demanding to speak to a lawyer is going to make your day much longer- needlessly.

If the police officer is genuinely doing his or her job I will do what I can to help. If they're just out harassing gun owners it quickly becomes obvious when you ask why they're seizing you. That is why I suggest you say nothing until you get a real answer to the question.

"For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?" triggers certain processes in the officer's brain- and he knows if he can't articulate to you why he's seized you, he can't articulate it to his supervisor either.

 

[walknotinfear]

Come on guys, why is it I give a personal opinion than you try to make it personal. Really, grow the f--k up. Look up two words in the dictionary, opinion and debate.

I didn't make a disrespectful comment on someones career or prior career, call an instructor a 'somewhat instructor', verbally bash them, say he should't be an American (served 17 years in the federal government collectively, 1 tour in Iraq, 2 branches in the military, so don't every question if I should be an American), etc.

It seems to me the reasons why I think SOME people carry OC was true because if it wasn't it wouldn't of upset a few readers here. It looks like this site may have a ton of immature readers on this site. And by the way my screen name was taking out of the Bible and it doesn't mean I walk around with a gun not fearing crime. If you ever read the Bible than you would have a clue what I was talking about.

 

[walknotinfear]

since folks always want "evidence" of someone targeting someone because they are open carrying, i have some. whether it's taken as chance or lack of SA on the "victims" part, oh well. i've OC'd before in NC and would do so in SC if we had it. i'd prefer to carry my .45 instead of my .380 all the time, but weather/work clothing does not permit that to happen.

as i was saying, just presenting the "evidence" in here instead of starting a new thread. two different instances.

Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun

Oh wow, the guy who opened carry now states he will never do it again, what a shocker.

 

[telpinaro]

I think you’ve missed the point.

There are three types of police – citizen encounters:
1 The Consensual Conversation
2 Seizure
3 Arrest

#1 requires nothing, #2 requires “reasonable articulable suspicion” that you’re involved in a crime (a hunch doesn’t cut it), and #3 requires probable cause.

The goal of the officer is to start at #1, move to #2 and then move to #3 (assuming worst case, which you should). If you encounter a police officer that you didn’t call, and he or she is speaking to you, you first need to determine where you are; #1 or #2. ALWAYS ask, “Are you detaining me?” If no- WALK AWAY. Don’t chat, debate, argue, or distribute literature to the officer- WALK AWAY.

If yes-“Officer, for suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?” If he says, “Because you have a gun” he’s either being evasive or he’s ignorant. Either way, shut up. Don’t talk. If he doesn’t answer, ask again. Don’t say anything except to ask that one question. If he knows he’s full of hot air, he’ll probably walk away first.

This is true for open, concealed, or no carry. The police are too busy dashing from call to call to randomly engage the citizenry in casual chitchat.

Actually, I bet I'm spoiled... I'm used to my county sheriffs who approve of carry, concealed and open, in which your #1 is rather commonplace (especially now that elections are coming up!). Had a nice conversation with one my last trip to the gun store.

You did remind me of one other thing I've heard, though, and that is when you've asked "Are you detaining me?" and received a "no" in response, you should follow up with "Am I free to go?" Which, of course, should be obvious as you are not being detained.

 

[Firefighterchen]

...blah blah...

...say he should't be an American...blah blah...

...blah blah...

Who said you shouldn't be an American?

Must be your cop mentality, twist words like the worst of them.

(served 17 years in the federal government collectively, 1 tour in Iraq, 2 branches in the military, so don't every question if I should be an American), etc.

That makes it even more embarrassing and saddening btw.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[BluesStringer]

since folks always want "evidence" of someone targeting someone because they are open carrying, i have some. whether it's taken as chance or lack of SA on the "victims" part, oh well. i've OC'd before in NC and would do so in SC if we had it. i'd prefer to carry my .45 instead of my .380 all the time, but weather/work clothing does not permit that to happen.

as i was saying, just presenting the "evidence" in here instead of starting a new thread. two different instances.

Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun

Not sure why "evidence" is put in quotation marks. Evidence is a valid request when assertions are constantly made counter to several folks' personal experiences. Whatever the reason for the quotes though, thanks for the attempt to provide some. It is more than most even attempt to do. About that "evidence" though....

The person whose gun was stolen was not interviewed on-camera, or he denied permission to use his likeness or voice if there was such an interview. The only "evidence" we have here of what happened is a third-party account of what was ostensibly told to the reporter over the phone, but we have exactly zero evidence that they recounted what was told to them as being reliable. Are we supposed to all of a sudden trust every word of a media source that we know is leftist and anti-gun for the most part? For the sake of argument, let's assume it was 100% reliable though. Now.....

So what? Assuming everything said in that piece is true, what does it prove that any OC'er on this forum has ever said was inaccurate? No one has ever claimed that OC can't cause the OC'er to be targeted, or even that it has never happened. All any of us have said is that there is no statistical evidence to support the claim that it is a common occurrence. I'll go a step further, while still assuming that everything in this piece is 100% true and accurate; it doesn't even support the claim that OC'ers being targeted because of their OC weapon being visible is statistically measurable. As such, even assuming 100% truth and accuracy in the piece provided, it is utterly meaningless as "evidence" of anything, and if that's why you put the quotes around the word, then we're in complete agreement. If it was meant to be dismissive of the need or request for real evidence of a given claim before it is accepted as valid commentary, well, that in and of itself would speak volumes about your motives for posting your "evidence" now wouldn't it?

Blues

 

[Bikenut]

I'm going to break your post down into parts so I can address each issue separately.... so here is number 1.

I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.
1) They want people to look at them.

Yes, that is exactly correct. Many OCers do want people to look at them hoping to spark conversations where folks with questions can learn what is legal and what isn't.

Also... I personally want bad guys to look at me and be "surprised" to see I'm wearing a gun. That gun puts the bad guys on notice that I will not be an easy target and hopefully the bad guy will decide to attack someone who appears to be an easier target.. you know... the concealed carrier who looks just like every other easy prey out there.