I ask why?

45doubletap said:
This OC vs CC debate never ends well....gets heated for no reason. It's an individual choice. No particular method is better or worse. Neither method is perfect for every circumstance.


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Click to expand...

Yeah it is....
No it's not...

You suck...
No you do...

I'm better....
No I am...

I have the element of surprise... HA!
I have deterrence from the BG... HA!

No one bothers me about how they hate my gun... HA!
I have wonderful conversations about how great the 2nd Amendment is.... HA!

What do you mean it never ends? What do you mean it gets heated? :biggrin:
 
wolf_fire said:
Yeah it is....
No it's not...

You suck...
No you do...

I'm better....
No I am...

I have the element of surprise... HA!
I have deterrence from the BG... HA!

No one bothers me about how they hate my gun... HA!
I have wonderful conversations about how great the 2nd Amendment is.... HA!

What do you mean it never ends? What do you mean it gets heated? :biggrin:
Click to expand...


"Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you!"

No idea what the name of that song is, or who sings it, but I just totally heard your very excellent summary to the tune of it.
 
I just read this thread and found it very enlightening.

I applied for my permit and began carrying in 2000 shortly after moving to Indiana from Chicago, IL.

In Indiana the law is 'Silent' on Open Carry or Concealed Carry and what is issued is a 'License to Carry Handgun.' So I started carrying OC because in my thoughts it was better to carry openly because it should put people more at ease to see a handgun in an open holster on someones hip rather than tucked into their pants should an accidental lifting of the shirt show the weapon, etc... during a CC.

Then a LEO comes up to me and says to the effect of, "You can't carry that way!"
"But I have a permit to carry Sir."
"That may be, but you have to carry it concealed."
"But that's not what the law says Sir."
"If you argue with me I'm going to take you in. Just conceal it now and in the future."
"Yes Sir" (Write down his badge number.)

Go Home.... Calls Down State to the Issuing Authority, Indiana State Police Handgun Licensing.
"Indiana State Police"
"Hello, My name is... and I have a question about my gun permit. I was just told by an officer I had to carry my handgun concealed?"
"Um... Yes sir? What's the problem?"
"It was my understanding that we could carry open or concealed."
"Hmmm. Yes sir?... Umm... Where do you live? What City?"
"Umm... North West Indiana... Does it matter which City??"
"No... That's close enough.. I just wanted to know which area of the state you were in." "Well sir, You you're right, you can carry open. Heck, you can carry it on your dashboard if you want, on your hip, or even on top of your head. But then your local law enforcement agencies can question your mental fitness as to whether or not you SHOULD be ALLOWED to carry if you know what I mean. Does this answer your question?"

That was my LEO run in and aftermath, so I pretty much decided to begin to carry concealed after that. Maybe you can say I took the easy path, but there was an oblique threat of having my permit taken away if I didn't comply and I quite simply don't have the finances to fight something like that in court.
 
I miss being able to OC....... SC really blows in that regard.

I'll save everyone the details of why I do OC (where legal), tactically why anyhow b/c others have stated it already. To put it simply, I prefer OC.... It's more comfortable and I don't have to dress around my weapon. I think in the time I lived in NM I was confronted by one or two people who were just uncomfortable with guns, they just asked if i was a cop, why I carried that way and were surprised it was legal. In NC, I got some weird looks at Lowes a few times while buying lumbar... no confrontations though.
 
Steon said:
That was my LEO run in and aftermath, so I pretty much decided to begin to carry concealed after that. Maybe you can say I took the easy path, but there was an oblique threat of having my permit taken away if I didn't comply and I quite simply don't have the finances to fight something like that in court.
Click to expand...

And now you are a servant slave of the state. Indiana is a shall issue state, they could not take away your permit because they did not like the way you carried your gun. You have a person who openly carries a handgun every day trying to tell you that you are mentally unfit for doing so. Talk about the crazies running the asylum! The government lied to you and scared you into submission. If all of the citizens just comply, it will only continue to get worse.
 
Steon said:
I just read this thread and found it very enlightening.

I applied for my permit and began carrying in 2000 shortly after moving to Indiana from Chicago, IL.

In Indiana the law is 'Silent' on Open Carry or Concealed Carry and what is issued is a 'License to Carry Handgun.' So I started carrying OC because in my thoughts it was better to carry openly because it should put people more at ease to see a handgun in an open holster on someones hip rather than tucked into their pants should an accidental lifting of the shirt show the weapon, etc... during a CC.

Then a LEO comes up to me and says to the effect of, "You can't carry that way!"
"But I have a permit to carry Sir."
"That may be, but you have to carry it concealed."
"But that's not what the law says Sir."
"If you argue with me I'm going to take you in. Just conceal it now and in the future."
"Yes Sir" (Write down his badge number.)

Go Home.... Calls Down State to the Issuing Authority, Indiana State Police Handgun Licensing.
"Indiana State Police"
"Hello, My name is... and I have a question about my gun permit. I was just told by an officer I had to carry my handgun concealed?"
"Um... Yes sir? What's the problem?"
"It was my understanding that we could carry open or concealed."
"Hmmm. Yes sir?... Umm... Where do you live? What City?"
"Umm... North West Indiana... Does it matter which City??"
"No... That's close enough.. I just wanted to know which area of the state you were in." "Well sir, You you're right, you can carry open. Heck, you can carry it on your dashboard if you want, on your hip, or even on top of your head. But then your local law enforcement agencies can question your mental fitness as to whether or not you SHOULD be ALLOWED to carry if you know what I mean. Does this answer your question?"

That was my LEO run in and aftermath, so I pretty much decided to begin to carry concealed after that. Maybe you can say I took the easy path, but there was an oblique threat of having my permit taken away if I didn't comply and I quite simply don't have the finances to fight something like that in court.
Click to expand...
I understand about not having the finances to fight a legal battle. That is something the government relies on when trampling on individuals since the government has an endless supply of yours and my tax money to fight us with... and all we have is whatever we have been able to earn during our lives.

Let me point out that what you got was a cop version of "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" with the added little hook of an implied "and if you dare to anyway we will use our authority to punish you!" thrown in.

Let me point out the obvious.... the cop used his authority to attempt to intimidate you... and it worked. The cop used the fear of you losing your permit to stop you from exercising your right to openly carry a pistol in a legal manner.
 
Steon said:
Maybe you can say I took the easy path, but there was an oblique threat of having my permit taken away if I didn't comply and I quite simply don't have the finances to fight something like that in court.
Click to expand...

The only reason the People have not revolted, is the fear of losing the scraps they throw at us.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
Bikenut said:
The cop used the fear of you losing your permit to stop you from exercising your right to openly carry a pistol in a legal manner.
Click to expand...

Actually the cop used the fear of losing his permit to stop him from exercising a privilege that he had already paid for the government's permission to engage in. "We are going to issue this permit that you paid for to do this, but don't do it because if you do we will illegally take away your permit to do it."

Eidolon said:
Says the guy who gets his pay check from The State?
Click to expand...

So, I guess if you were working for me, or we had a contract and I was paying you to fulfill the conditions of the contract, then that would make you my slave? Steon paid the government for a permission slip to engage in an activity, and then the same government told him he couldn't do it after he paid for and received his permit, and Steon submitted to that.
 
I rarely open carry, but when I do I don't worry about being a target or the element of surprise. I always carry for self defense whether it is open or concealed, but when I open carry it is also to exercise that right in a way that perpetuates all gun rights. A right you never exercise will eventually be so unusual as to risk being viewed as unacceptable, and thus no longer considered a right. In short, if the American public no longer sees the carrying of a gun as a right, they'll no longer be inclined to preserve that right, or even any other gun rights. The more they consider the carrying of a gun as a commonplace thing, the more accepting they'll be of that as a right, and of other gun rights by extension or association. So open carry is very much a method that helps insure gun rights of all kinds, not just the right to open carry.
 
Steon said:
That was my LEO run in and aftermath, so I pretty much decided to begin to carry concealed after that. Maybe you can say I took the easy path, but there was an oblique threat of having my permit taken away if I didn't comply and I quite simply don't have the finances to fight something like that in court.
Click to expand...

As someone who can't afford to fight something in court, and can't afford being even temporarily arrested (or even detained at the wrong time of day)... there are ways!

Find a competent lawyer who is friendly to guns (preferably one who will give initial advice for a discount-no idea about your area but there should be someone if you look!). Print out the applicable laws and have that lawyer explain it to you. Carry your copy with you when you open carry, then if a cop hassles you, pull it out and politely show him why you can, adding that you consulted with your lawyer to ensure it was accurate. You will very likely be left alone immediately!

I might do this myself when my son is older and I don't have to worry so much about not being there for him.
 
NavyLCDR said:
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
The cop used the fear of you losing your permit to stop you from exercising your right to openly carry a pistol in a legal manner.
Click to expand...
Actually the cop used the fear of losing his permit to stop him from exercising a privilege that he had already paid for the government's permission to engage in. "We are going to issue this permit that you paid for to do this, but don't do it because if you do we will illegally take away your permit to do it."-snip-
Click to expand...
I often suggest folks be aware that laws differ from State to State and... dang it... I just got caught doing the very same thing of assuming instead of researching. I missed the part below...
Originally Posted by Steon View Post-snip-

In Indiana the law is 'Silent' on Open Carry or Concealed Carry and what is issued is a 'License to Carry Handgun.'-snip-
Click to expand...
which should have sent me on a search to make sure I knew what I was talking about and had I spent a moment doing that search I would have found that Indiana requires a permit just to carry a handgun whether openly or concealed.... but I didn't. I offer no excuses... I just screwed up.

My thanks to NavyLCDR ... for correcting me.
 
telpinaro said:
Print out the applicable laws and .... Carry your copy with you when you open carry, then if a cop hassles you, pull it out and politely show him why you can.... You will very likely be left alone immediately!
Click to expand...

I take it you haven’t had many encounters with police. No police officer is going to trust some piece of paper given to him or her by a suspect. Your best bet in the very unlikely event you encounter an officer that truly doesn’t know the law is to politely request a supervisor, and say nothing beyond that. Most of the time they know that OC is lawful and they’re just trying to get you to start running your mouth.
 
Mainsail said:
I take it you haven’t had many encounters with police. No police officer is going to trust some piece of paper given to him or her by a suspect. Your best bet in the very unlikely event you encounter an officer that truly doesn’t know the law is to politely request a supervisor, and say nothing beyond that. Most of the time they know that OC is lawful and they’re just trying to get you to start running your mouth.
Click to expand...

If they don't know the law and don't trust your papers (I wouldn't either, so understandable), then yes. If they do and they're just hassling you because they think they can get away with it, the fact that you do know your rights and can back it up with fact (I figured the "being polite" part would cover the "not running your mouth" part, sorry about that), then unless you've wound up with a truly awful cop, it should work.

To be honest, if they framed it as a request to cover it up for a specific reason, I might comply (big "might," depends on the situation, and I'd probably go home either way). If they tried to tell me it was illegal, I'd probably politely inform them of the applicable laws to verify with a supervisor if they wanted. All this is initial thoughts, though; I don't OC so I really shouldn't comment. :unsure: (I'll figure out what and where my lines are when/if I decide to OC.) I just wanted to point out that where there's a will, there's a way. Shouldn't have to ditch a first choice for a perfectly legal method of carry because of the financial consequences and threat of losing his permit when you can exercise your right and have some confidence you'll avoid the trouble. Hope this CC'er isn't overstepping her boundaries... :smile:
 
All the issues with Police Officers really makes me glad to be a PO in northeast PA. Almost all coworkers and other friends "on the job" could not give a damn about OC or CC! In fact we're all in favor of the general public packing heat! I remember pulling over a vehicle and the driver gave his permit (I never asked) then asked nervously if I needed to see his weapon??? All I said was,"Heck no! Just don't get mad and shoot me and we are all good!" We had a laugh and he went away with a warning.

I know there are DEFINITELY some power hungry anti gun Gestapo control freak officers. But the vast majority in my area only have issue with criminals being armed.


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telpinaro said:
unless you've wound up with a truly awful cop, it should work.
Click to expand...

I think you’ve missed the point.

There are three types of police – citizen encounters:
1 The Consensual Conversation
2 Seizure
3 Arrest

#1 requires nothing, #2 requires “reasonable articulable suspicion” that you’re involved in a crime (a hunch doesn’t cut it), and #3 requires probable cause.

The goal of the officer is to start at #1, move to #2 and then move to #3 (assuming worst case, which you should). If you encounter a police officer that you didn’t call, and he or she is speaking to you, you first need to determine where you are; #1 or #2. ALWAYS ask, “Are you detaining me?” If no- WALK AWAY. Don’t chat, debate, argue, or distribute literature to the officer- WALK AWAY.

If yes-“Officer, for suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?” If he says, “Because you have a gun” he’s either being evasive or he’s ignorant. Either way, shut up. Don’t talk. If he doesn’t answer, ask again. Don’t say anything except to ask that one question. If he knows he’s full of hot air, he’ll probably walk away first.

This is true for open, concealed, or no carry. The police are too busy dashing from call to call to randomly engage the citizenry in casual chitchat.
 
I had never actually encountered a LEO other than a game warden while open carrying, since as I said in a previous post I usually only open carry while hunting or fishing and to and from those activities (occasionally other times, but not often), but just the other day I pulled into a gas station with two sheriff's cars at the pumps, the deputies were outside their cars talking. I really didn't know what their reaction would be when I got out next to them wearing a Luger P08 in a belt holster, open carry, I hoped there wouldn't be any hassle, but I knew I was carrying legally. I got out of the truck and started to pump gas, and my pistol side was facing directly at the officers just a few steps away. One glanced over and looked at me for a moment, then they went back to talking between themselves. End of 'encounter', if you can even call it that. We all went about our business, no issues. The way it should be!
 
TrapperBob said:
I had never actually encountered a LEO other than a game warden while open carrying, since as I said in a previous post I usually only open carry while hunting or fishing and to and from those activities (occasionally other times, but not often), but just the other day I pulled into a gas station with two sheriff's cars at the pumps, the deputies were outside their cars talking. I really didn't know what their reaction would be when I got out next to them wearing a Luger P08 in a belt holster, open carry, I hoped there wouldn't be any hassle, but I knew I was carrying legally. I got out of the truck and started to pump gas, and my pistol side was facing directly at the officers just a few steps away. One glanced over and looked at me for a moment, then they went back to talking between themselves. End of 'encounter', if you can even call it that. We all went about our business, no issues. The way it should be!
Click to expand...



Def the way it should be! It's only a damn gun! Nothing more...


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