The_Outlaw
~The Dude Abides~
Obama "Strongly Objects" to Religious Liberty Amendment???
I "Strongly Object" to Obama Being President!!!
I "Strongly Object" to Obama Being President!!!
gejoslin
Illegitimi non carborundu
And all his Chicago Mob ilk and like minded there with him! The bunch of them are a waste of skin! imHo
Link Removed
r1derbike
New member
Har! The landscape is treacherous, the planet is uninhabitable. I am up there already because two gold DVDs with my information (and countless others) have been laid on the landing sights, and probably will be covered by rock, dust, or obliterated by meteorites long before any space travelers in the far distant future discover them and throw them in their garbage receptacles as cosmic litter from the former and long gone inhabitants of earth. Leaving our trash in the cosmos is only an extension of our practice on earth.
OK, as long as people love to label us as angry, there is a grain of truth (at a a minimum) in that. Here's why: Greta Christina's Blog: Atheists and Anger
(try not to let the profanity get in the way of the substance)
(try not to let the profanity get in the way of the substance)
Oldgrunt
Well-known member
I just read her article and several more referenced there. Contrary to being offended, I found the articles quite interesting and gave me a view from the opposing side. She is an articulate woman (even with lacing profanity in the work), obviously homosexual and an ardent crusader for atheism. She believes anger is necessary to promote atheism and seems to be angry if Christians, Jews or whatever are as vocal about their own religions. I don't get angry when having a discussion with an atheist. As a matter of fact, I truly feel for them because, in my religious tenets, they are so misguided and in danger of losing the soul they don't seem to realize they have. I can't force my religion on them, nor do I want to. Religion is a personal choice (as is atheism)and an acceptance of God in one's own way. When the occasion arises, however, and a religious v. atheism discussion starts, I feel compelled to make my opinions known and, when I do, I like to give a Biblical reference to enforce my belief. I consider the Bible to be somewhat of an Instruction Manual to use as a rule and guide for my life. Of course, there are those who look upon the Bible as some old dusty book containing myths so they will naturally miss the connections I use. The amazing thing I find about the Bible is that it seems to have an answer for every argument one can bring up about our activities. But then again, that only confuses some with facts which they can not refute, even after thousands of years. Pretty good book to me and extremely accurate even to modern days. I wouldn't go so far as to label atheists as angry. There is an interesting comparison to be made here which I once heard about using profanity, "Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind trying to express itself forcefully." Maybe the atheist, as the author of the article, needs both profanity and anger to get her message across. Fortunately, there are some on here who have expressed their atheistic views without the necessity of being crude. With those, I find repartee much more interesting.
tricolordad
Banned
Christians burned people at the stake for refuting popular christian belief for almost 800 years. how do you explain that? "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." ignorance becomes you. oldgrunt, I will just assume youre a crotchety angry old fart and place the blame on your incontinence.
tricolordad
Banned
you mean to say "some muslims". 2/3 the planet is muslim, yet 1% are terrorists like the 1% rotten apple rate of every religion and you just lump us all together. how very eloquent.
I actually find it humorous how obtuse people become when attempting to sound intelligent.
gejoslin
Illegitimi non carborundu
She's so angry, about so much, how does she have time to do anything else? geeez! That kind of anger, in that quantity, will color the rest of her life. Just keeping track of it all would be so time consuming. But I guess everyone needs a hobby. ymmv
tricolordad
Banned
you mean to say "some muslims". 2/3 the planet is muslim, yet 1% are terrorists like the 1% rotten apple rate of every religion and you just lump us all together. how very eloquent.
I actually find it humorous how obtuse people become when attempting to sound intelligent.
Oldgrunt
Well-known member
Gee Dad, thanks for the comment. Didn't realize I was being "obtuse" and trying to sound intelligent. Me mudder would be so proud of me!
We can alter my statement to say "some Muslims" if you would like, no big thing. Key word being "Muslim." I find your figures to be somewhat inaccurate however. The population of Muslims is given at 1.6 billion, or 23% of the world population and, considered to be the second largest religion in the world (Pew Research Center). Two thirds (or 62%) live in the Asian-Pacific region with a population of 344 million in India and Pakistan; 317 million in the Middle East-North African region. Indonesia has an 88% Muslim population but is not considered to be a Muslim state. Now that we have gotten those figures out of the way, you say that only one percent of Muslims are the terrorists. Why, then, haven't the other 99% straightened them out? Why can't your religion co-exist with others? Why does your religion feel it necessary to kill those who refuse to convert to Islam? It is questions like that which could lead to a meaningful dialogue with others rather than a running gun battle. I think we could all feel better with an understanding of how others felt. Doesn't necessarily mean we will agree but at least we would know what we are disagreeing about. Give that a little thought.
Tricolor:
True. some Christians did that (burn at stake) a long time ago. They are not tainted by it today. Muslims are currently doing worse, killing innocent civilians not because they are not Muslim necessarilly, but because they can kill them. I hear no protests from the "peaceful" Muslims to the killers. Muslims are tacitly terrorists by ignoring or cheering the terrorists.
True. some Christians did that (burn at stake) a long time ago. They are not tainted by it today. Muslims are currently doing worse, killing innocent civilians not because they are not Muslim necessarilly, but because they can kill them. I hear no protests from the "peaceful" Muslims to the killers. Muslims are tacitly terrorists by ignoring or cheering the terrorists.
Oldgrunt
Well-known member
Dad: Sorry old son, I nearly missed your comment here. I'm sorry I have given the impression of being a crochety, incontinent old fart. You are partially correct, only I am not incontinent.....yet. I will plead guilty to everything else and think I can keep up with you in most things. I know you are sensitive to remarks about Islam but you must remember, neither I nor several others on here are Muslims and, as are you, entitled to our opinions. I can truthfully say that our discussions have caused me to delve into the Koran and your prophet.
Here is a little something I have found for you to chew on:
Gerd Puin on Qur'anic Integrity
Gerd Puin is a German scholar and the world's foremost authority on Qur'anic paleography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts. He is a specialist in Arabic calligraphy:
My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur'an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not-there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.
Imperfect Qur'an
Another reason why the Qur'an fails the criteria as "the word of a perfect God" is because of the imperfections within the Qur'an. The Qur'an is riddled with literary contradictions, scientific errors, and historical inaccuracies.
An imperfect literary style is used in the Qur'an.
On the whole, while many parts of the Qur'an undoubtedly have considerable rhetorical power, even over an unbelieving reader, the book, aesthetically considered, is by no means a first-rate performance. ...let us look at some of the more extended narratives. It has already been noticed how vehement and abrupt they are where they ought to be characterized by epic repose. Indispensable links, both in expression and in the sequence of events, are often omitted, so that to understand these histories is sometimes far easier for us than for those who learned them first, because we know most of them from better sources. Along with this, there is a great deal of superfluous verbiage; and nowhere do we find a steady advance in the narration. Contrast, in these respects, "the most beautiful tale," the history of Joseph (xii.), and its glaring improprieties, with the story in Genesis, so admirably executed in spite of some slight discrepancies. Similar faults are found in the non-narrative portions of the Qur'an. The connection of ideas is extremely loose, and even the syntax betrays great awkwardness. Anancloutha are of frequent occurrence, and cannot be explained as conscious literary devices. Many sentences begin with a "when" or "on the day when," which seem to hover in the air, so that the commentators are driven to supply a "think of this" or some ellipsis. Again, there is no great literary skill evinced in the frequent and needless harping on the same words and phrases; in xviii., for example, "till that" (hatta idha) occurs no fewer than eight times. Muhammad, in short, is not in any sense a master of style.
Nöldeke, Theodor. "The Qur'an," Sketches from Eastern History. Trans. J.S. Black. London: Adam and Charles Black, 1892.
Plagiarism in Muhammad's Time
The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad's critics caught him plagiarizing traditions, folklore, and Jewish and Christian scripture. Examples:
We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients" (8:31). "Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! They are nothing but tales of the ancients!" (23:83)
I'm quite sure, if you look long enough, you can find writers who will make similar comments toward Christianity and our Bible. Ours does have chronological continuity, where the Koran doesn't, making it that much more believable. I'm not sure if you were born into a Muslim family or became a convert. Either way, it is your religion and you can expect people to disagree with it since it is different and does advocate violence. Either way, we can all learn something from these discussions.
Here is a little something I have found for you to chew on:
Gerd Puin on Qur'anic Integrity
Gerd Puin is a German scholar and the world's foremost authority on Qur'anic paleography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts. He is a specialist in Arabic calligraphy:
My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur'an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not-there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.
Imperfect Qur'an
Another reason why the Qur'an fails the criteria as "the word of a perfect God" is because of the imperfections within the Qur'an. The Qur'an is riddled with literary contradictions, scientific errors, and historical inaccuracies.
An imperfect literary style is used in the Qur'an.
On the whole, while many parts of the Qur'an undoubtedly have considerable rhetorical power, even over an unbelieving reader, the book, aesthetically considered, is by no means a first-rate performance. ...let us look at some of the more extended narratives. It has already been noticed how vehement and abrupt they are where they ought to be characterized by epic repose. Indispensable links, both in expression and in the sequence of events, are often omitted, so that to understand these histories is sometimes far easier for us than for those who learned them first, because we know most of them from better sources. Along with this, there is a great deal of superfluous verbiage; and nowhere do we find a steady advance in the narration. Contrast, in these respects, "the most beautiful tale," the history of Joseph (xii.), and its glaring improprieties, with the story in Genesis, so admirably executed in spite of some slight discrepancies. Similar faults are found in the non-narrative portions of the Qur'an. The connection of ideas is extremely loose, and even the syntax betrays great awkwardness. Anancloutha are of frequent occurrence, and cannot be explained as conscious literary devices. Many sentences begin with a "when" or "on the day when," which seem to hover in the air, so that the commentators are driven to supply a "think of this" or some ellipsis. Again, there is no great literary skill evinced in the frequent and needless harping on the same words and phrases; in xviii., for example, "till that" (hatta idha) occurs no fewer than eight times. Muhammad, in short, is not in any sense a master of style.
Nöldeke, Theodor. "The Qur'an," Sketches from Eastern History. Trans. J.S. Black. London: Adam and Charles Black, 1892.
Plagiarism in Muhammad's Time
The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad's critics caught him plagiarizing traditions, folklore, and Jewish and Christian scripture. Examples:
We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients" (8:31). "Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! They are nothing but tales of the ancients!" (23:83)
I'm quite sure, if you look long enough, you can find writers who will make similar comments toward Christianity and our Bible. Ours does have chronological continuity, where the Koran doesn't, making it that much more believable. I'm not sure if you were born into a Muslim family or became a convert. Either way, it is your religion and you can expect people to disagree with it since it is different and does advocate violence. Either way, we can all learn something from these discussions.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
Trumpets I hope! :dance3:
gejoslin
Illegitimi non carborundu
Now that the MSM have gotten on Oblamas case, he finally hit them where they live, it seems they're catching up on 4+ years of letting him ride for free. Was it because he was black? Or because he's as liberal they are? I personally think it's both. Fox news and Glen Beck seem to be the only ones calling him out for the last 4+ years. The scandals that have cropped up in his 2nd term have been going on since he was sworn in, should have been sworn out imho!
tricolordad
Banned
I have stated time and time again that the terrorists who claim to be Muslim are not. I have spoken with these assholes. They cannot tell you what is in the Qran. You ask what Sura 29 says, and they will give you a blank stare. I'm going to leave you with this as my last comment on this topic. You cannot argue with ignorance since the ignorant have already chosen to live in their so-called bliss. I actually find you holy warriors hilarious since most of you drop racial slurs along with the bible thumping when you think you are among your peers. When confronted with the truth and offered an opportunity to read for themselves, they will claim piety and insist that their "faith" doesn't allow them to read another holy book. Lol ok yall
Oldgrunt
Well-known member
Dad: You seem to be taking offense when we disagree with you about Islam but I don't think any of us want to be hostile to you. On the contrary, our exchanges have caused me to actually look into your Koran to try to understand where you are coming from. I am somewhat familiar with religious hostility because I am Catholic. A lot of people look upon Catholics as Satan's disciples and will not hesitate to say so. That is OK with me and it does not shake my belief at all. I wasn't always a Catholic so I know the arguments from the other side before they open their mouths. Some Protestants don't realize we are worshiping the same God but the Catholics have a few more bells and whistles in our ceremonials. I received the following email from a very good friend today which you may find interesting, it being from a Southern Baptist:
"
This was sent to me by a Southern Baptist good friend. See my comment at the end.
EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT CATHOLIC, THIS IS AN EYE OPENER ...
When the Catholic Church was founded, there were no hospitals. Today, One out of five people in this country receive their medical care at a Catholic hospital.
When the Catholic Church was founded, there were no schools. Today, the Catholic Church teaches 3 million students a day, in its more than 250 Catholic Colleges and Universities, in its more than 1200 Catholic High Schools and its more than 5000 Catholic grade schools.
Every day, the Catholic Church feeds, clothes, shelters and educates more people than any other organization in the world.
The new Obama Health Mandate could end all this and the tax payers would have to make up the loss.
Also, all Catholic adoption services would come to an end. It would be a human disaster.
There are more than 77 million Catholics in this country. It takes an estimated 50 million Catholic votes to elect a president. I am asking all of you to go to the polls in 2014 and be united in supporting all Senators and Reps who will respect the Catholic Church, all Christians, and all religions.
Mr. President, you said, "The USA is not a Christian Nation." You are wrong - we are a Christian Nation founded on Judeo-Christian values allowing all religions in America to Worship and Practice Freely. Something Islam will never do because of its beliefs.
Oh, by the way, on MUSLIM HERITAGE IN America ...
Have you ever been to a Muslim hospital?
Have you heard a Muslim orchestra?
Have you seen a Muslim band march in a parade?
Have you witnessed a Muslim charity?
Have you seen Muslims shaking hands with a Muslim Girl Scouts?
Have you seen a Muslim Candy Striper?
Have you ever seen a Muslim do anything that contributes positively to the American way of life?
Case Closed!!
I believe the message my friend is trying to convey is not pro-Catholic or anti-Islam. It is pro-constitutional religious freedom and anti-politicians who oppose religious freedom in order to raise campaign funds.
Christ did not hate those who opposed his teaching. But, He was under no illusions about what they believed and what they were prepared to do to stop the spread of his message. We should follow His example!"
You seem to use insult to try to defeat debate of your stance on Islam and that we, when presented with the "truth" and offered an opportunity to read for ourselves, piously claim that our faith does not allow us to read another holy book. Wrong! I read everything I can get my hands on. Even read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible just for curiousity. It hasn't phased my faith, actually made it stronger. Be that as it may, no one is deliberately being hostile to you and sorry you feel you have to drop out of our discussions.
"
This was sent to me by a Southern Baptist good friend. See my comment at the end.
EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT CATHOLIC, THIS IS AN EYE OPENER ...
When the Catholic Church was founded, there were no hospitals. Today, One out of five people in this country receive their medical care at a Catholic hospital.
When the Catholic Church was founded, there were no schools. Today, the Catholic Church teaches 3 million students a day, in its more than 250 Catholic Colleges and Universities, in its more than 1200 Catholic High Schools and its more than 5000 Catholic grade schools.
Every day, the Catholic Church feeds, clothes, shelters and educates more people than any other organization in the world.
The new Obama Health Mandate could end all this and the tax payers would have to make up the loss.
Also, all Catholic adoption services would come to an end. It would be a human disaster.
There are more than 77 million Catholics in this country. It takes an estimated 50 million Catholic votes to elect a president. I am asking all of you to go to the polls in 2014 and be united in supporting all Senators and Reps who will respect the Catholic Church, all Christians, and all religions.
Mr. President, you said, "The USA is not a Christian Nation." You are wrong - we are a Christian Nation founded on Judeo-Christian values allowing all religions in America to Worship and Practice Freely. Something Islam will never do because of its beliefs.
Oh, by the way, on MUSLIM HERITAGE IN America ...
Have you ever been to a Muslim hospital?
Have you heard a Muslim orchestra?
Have you seen a Muslim band march in a parade?
Have you witnessed a Muslim charity?
Have you seen Muslims shaking hands with a Muslim Girl Scouts?
Have you seen a Muslim Candy Striper?
Have you ever seen a Muslim do anything that contributes positively to the American way of life?
Case Closed!!
I believe the message my friend is trying to convey is not pro-Catholic or anti-Islam. It is pro-constitutional religious freedom and anti-politicians who oppose religious freedom in order to raise campaign funds.
Christ did not hate those who opposed his teaching. But, He was under no illusions about what they believed and what they were prepared to do to stop the spread of his message. We should follow His example!"
You seem to use insult to try to defeat debate of your stance on Islam and that we, when presented with the "truth" and offered an opportunity to read for ourselves, piously claim that our faith does not allow us to read another holy book. Wrong! I read everything I can get my hands on. Even read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible just for curiousity. It hasn't phased my faith, actually made it stronger. Be that as it may, no one is deliberately being hostile to you and sorry you feel you have to drop out of our discussions.
TroutStalker
New member
TCD, I have been sitting on the sidelines reading away in enjoyment. I got to jump in here for a second. You make mention above that "You have talked to those assholes". That's interesting. How so? Your argument is that less than 1% of Muslims are terrorists. Thats the proverbial needle in the haystack. How did you talk to them? It's just an odd statement.
