Obama "Strongly Objects" to Religious Liberty Amendment....

[Oldgrunt]

I'm sorry, did you really just say, in your own words, that without religion you can't be a good person?

Damn, I guess Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Stephen Hawking, Sigmund Freud, Marie Curie, and thousands of other scientists, philanthropists, and all around good people must've actually been total assholes then.

A moral compass in no way relies upon the belief in some mythical deity. Yes, some people get it from that, but to say that your faith is the only possible thing to base your morals on is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. The bible has some good lessons I it, I'm one of the few atheists I know that have read the thing from cover to cover. But IMO, believing everything you read in in the bible because somebody said to, is like believing everything you read on the Internet.

BTW, I'm a French Model. Bon Jour.

Gee, Creek, guess your cat whizzed in your Wheaties, huh? If a moral compass doesn't rely on a belief in something (God, tree, Mother Earth) on what is it based? A sense of something being bad or good has to be played off something other wise there would be neither sense. You can be an atheist if you would like. No pressure on you. Funny, anthropologists have proven, that even the most primitive of people, have a belief in a deity of sorts and have their morals from that belief. Guess they are not clouded with all the crap of modern society. They seemed to have had more intelligence than we gave them credit for. Maybe we could learn from them! I am glad you have read the Bible but your statement seems to indicate you don't take it as the inspired Word of God. Next time you read it, open your mind AND your heart. Maybe something will get through to you then. BTW, how goes your modeling career?

 

[jcreek]

Gee, Creek, guess your cat whizzed in your Wheaties, huh? If a moral compass doesn't rely on a belief in something (God, tree, Mother Earth) on what is it based? A sense of something being bad or good has to be played off something other wise there would be neither sense. You can be an atheist if you would like. No pressure on you. Funny, anthropologists have proven, that even the most primitive of people, have a belief in a deity of sorts and have their morals from that belief. Guess they are not clouded with all the crap of modern society. They seemed to have had more intelligence than we gave them credit for. Maybe we could learn from them! I am glad you have read the Bible but your statement seems to indicate you don't take it as the inspired Word of God. Next time you read it, open your mind AND your heart. Maybe something will get through to you then. BTW, how goes your modeling career?

Actually, I own neither a cat nor a box of Wheaties.

But anywho, maybe something will get through to me then? So because I read the Bible I should immediately agree with and believe everything it says and accept it as the word of "God?" Does the same hold true if I read the Quran or Torah?

Like I said, the bible has some good moral lessons in it. So do the other holy scriptures. But nothing the bible teaches, that is independent of religion (don't murder, steal, cheat on your wife, etc.) is anything that common sense doesn't already dictate to most people. But I guess that's where the argument ends, because I'm sure you believe common sense is gifted to you by god, where I believe it's predisposed human nature. The people that lack common sense and do things like go on shooting sprees are mentally challenged, not religiously challenged. The human mind is an amazing thing. I don't need a fairy tale character to tell me what's right and wrong.


Oh, and thanks for asking. I actually decided to make a career change. I applied last night to be an astronaut and NASA accepted me this morning. I'm going Mars tomorrow.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Congratulations on your acceptance by NASA and your trip to Mars. The trip should give you ample time for reading and contemplating the world's problems. I agree that scriptures contain many moral lessons but you have to be careful what scriptures you read. Or do you take literally the admonition from the Quran to slay those who will not convert to Islam? Common sense which you refer to is learned through experience. I doubt that very few people are endowed with it from birth. The Bible lays out God's plan for us all. Reading it does not necessarily impart instant wisdom on a person but, it does give one much food for thought and, through the use of common sense, the ability to discern the truth of what has been written. The prophecies in the Bible have proven themselves over many years with an accuracy that could only be supernatural and should be unquestionable to a thinking mind. What other book can make that claim? There is too much proof in the existence of God and his works for me to not believe and I do not understand those who will not believe. That, however, is their choice and no one else can make it for them. I believe the condition our world is in right now is because of our rejection of God and his laws. We are a dystopian society and are reaping the punishment of God for pushing Him away. Regardless of what one thinks, we have been warned and the Bible is bearing truth to that each and every day. By the way, on your trip to Mars, you may find further evidence that God is not a fairy tale character. Have a safe trip!

 

[jcreek]

I believe the condition our world is in right now is because of our rejection of God and his laws. We are a dystopian society and are reaping the punishment of God for pushing Him away.

You say that the condition of the world right is because of the rejection of God. I assume you mean the Christian god, and not allah, buddha, zeus, hades, or anyone of the several hundred other gods out there. Here in lies the problem with your statement. Only 33% of the world believes in your god. The other 66% believe in one or more of the other gods, or no god at all. And aside from the atheists, they all believe the same thing. That all the world's issues would be solved if everybody just accepted their god. So which one is it? Which of the several hundred religions do I believe in to save the world? I'm assuming you've never read the quran, torah, or any of the other holy scripts and studied their religion from an unbiased perspective. So how are you qualified to make an educated decision as to which one is correct? I'm willing to bet your parents were Christian too, and they took you to church as a kid or taught you their beliefs. You were never given a chance to be unbiased. Because you're a Christian, you believe all the bible's prophecies line up. And Muslims believe all the quran's prophecies lineup, and so on. Religion is all based on perspective. Everybody interprets their holy story a different way. If they didn't, there would be no subsects, no Shiites or Sunnis, no baptists, Protestants, etc. there would only be Christians, Muslims, etc.

It's just my opinion that man created god and religion, and not the other way around. They needed something to believe in so they started interpreting everything they could, to fit what they wanted to believe. They needed to have some sense of security that there was something more, something after life, and something in control of it all. Everybody I talk to that is on the fence about religion and that eventually accept god, confirm this. They say the reason they accepted god is because they needed to know there was something more. My father-in-law tells me all the time how the closer I get to death the more I will believe in god. I have no way of explaining to him that that's not true. Ever heard the phrase "There's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole?" Well, I've been in in several "foxholes" while taking fire, and I'm still an atheist.

But don't worry, if I see Jesus floating around up there on the way to Mars, you'll be the first to know.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Creek: We will just have to agree to disagree on the subject of God. My belief came through a lot of study over a very long time. And, yes, through some foxhole experiences also which left the "pucker factor" quite high at the times of occurrence. I will just reiterate that the Bible is the only book I know of that has proved itself through it's prophecies being fulfilled. I place no stock in the Quran since it came along several hundred years after our religion, and the supposed author didn't seem to have the background to make him believable. One day we will all know the answer to it all. Some may be right and some may be wrong or, we could all be wrong. But I have found great comfort in my take on life and look forward to meeting my Lord when that day comes. And please do let me know if you see Jesus. I am quite sure He would be glad to meet you.

 

[Ringo]

OG, atheists thrive by being a parasite on Christianity, and mostly target the shortcomings of individuals. Atheists are so opposed to anything linked to God that their hatred gets in the way of common sense. They believe that nothing, plus nothing, plus time, equals something. All lies begin with self-deceit. Satan (Devil) is self-deceived and the father of all lies, atheists being of their father the devil have the nearest alliance to Satan. The reason for their resistance and rage is because God's word is truth, and the truth terrifies them. Being of their father the Devil (like father like son) these "fools by choice" will never go away or shut up. They have no religion of their own, so the sole purpose of their existence revolves around attacking the validity of the Holy Bible. An awful state of regenerate men, they partake of the same principles and propensities which characterize the very nature and essence of their father the devil! When confronted with any debate atheists are only able to issue negative commentary because, once again, their hatred gets in the way of any common sense. Therefor, as we can see, they foolishly rage and there is no peace and quite.

 

[jcreek]

OG, atheists thrive by being a parasite on Christianity, and mostly target the shortcomings of individuals. Atheists are so opposed to anything linked to God that their hatred gets in the way of common sense. They believe that nothing, plus nothing, plus time, equals something. All lies begin with self-deceit. Satan (Devil) is self-deceived and the father of all lies, atheists being of their father the devil have the nearest alliance to Satan. The reason for their resistance and rage is because God's word is truth, and the truth terrifies them. Being of their father the Devil (like father like son) these "fools by choice" will never go away or shut up. They have no religion of their own, so the sole purpose of their existence revolves around attacking the validity of the Holy Bible. An awful state of regenerate men, they partake of the same principles and propensities which characterize the very nature and essence of their father the devil! When confronted with any debate atheists are only able to issue negative commentary because, once again, their hatred gets in the way of any common sense. Therefor, as we can see, they foolishly rage and there is no peace and quite.

Lmafo. I don't think I've ever been called the spawn of satan before by someone who actually believed it. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

The truth terrifies us? For a belief set that's based strictly around empirical evidence I find that argument humorous as well, in a pathetic, you need to try harder sort of way.

We'll never go away or shut up? Funny, I think the same thing every time an idiot like you shows up at my front door. And I do mean an idiot like you, not all Christians. 99% of Christians I know, even the evangelicals, aren't half as retarded as you are.

Until you chimed in, OG and I were having a healthy and entertaining debate. GTFO newb.

 

[tricolordad]

You say that the condition of the world right is because of the rejection of God. I assume you mean the Christian god, and not allah, buddha, zeus, hades, or anyone of the several hundred other gods out there. Here in lies the problem with your statement. Only 33% of the world believes in your god. The other 66% believe in one or more of the other gods, or no god at all. And aside from the atheists, they all believe the same thing. That all the world's issues would be solved if everybody just accepted their god. So which one is it? Which of the several hundred religions do I believe in to save the world? I'm assuming you've never read the quran, torah, or any of the other holy scripts and studied their religion from an unbiased perspective. So how are you qualified to make an educated decision as to which one is correct? I'm willing to bet your parents were Christian too, and they took you to church as a kid or taught you their beliefs. You were never given a chance to be unbiased. Because you're a Christian, you believe all the bible's prophecies line up. And Muslims believe all the quran's prophecies lineup, and so on. Religion is all based on perspective. Everybody interprets their holy story a different way. If they didn't, there would be no subsects, no Shiites or Sunnis, no baptists, Protestants, etc. there would only be Christians, Muslims, etc.

It's just my opinion that man created god and religion, and not the other way around. They needed something to believe in so they started interpreting everything they could, to fit what they wanted to believe. They needed to have some sense of security that there was something more, something after life, and something in control of it all. Everybody I talk to that is on the fence about religion and that eventually accept god, confirm this. They say the reason they accepted god is because they needed to know there was something more. My father-in-law tells me all the time how the closer I get to death the more I will believe in god. I have no way of explaining to him that that's not true. Ever heard the phrase "There's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole?" Well, I've been in in several "foxholes" while taking fire, and I'm still an atheist.

But don't worry, if I see Jesus floating around up there on the way to Mars, you'll be the first to know.

Referring to your second sentence, Allah is just the Arabic word for "God." We Muslims just don't do the saint worship thing. Or pray to a mortal man who claimed to be the son of god, and later on, claimed to have become god. Just a little education for the masses.

 

[JimPage]

Referring to your second sentence, Allah is just the Arabic word for "God." We Muslims just don't do the saint worship thing. Or pray to a mortal man who claimed to be the son of god, and later on, claimed to have become god. Just a little education for the masses.

How do you explain the vehement and often violent resistance to criticism of Mohammed?

 

[Oldgrunt]

How do you explain the vehemenr and often violent resistance to criticism of Mohammed?

They can't take the truth about him. Mohammed was not a prophet. Deuteronomy 18 contradicts the Quran, which declares that the "Prophethood and
Revelation" was to come through the progeny of Isaac and Jacob, not Ishmael (Sura 29:27). He was deemed by some to have been a prophet because of a mole on his back. The mole supposedly signified the sign of a prophet. OK, that being the case, I must be a prophet because I have several of them! From what I have read of him, he was not what one would consider to be the epitome of a prophet but he did manage to attract a following. I have no problem with Muslims having their religion up to a point. When they decide that I should be killed because I refuse to convert to Islam, that crosses the line. I read a little quip once that said, "The CHRISTIAN said he would die for his religion. The MUSLIM said I would die for HIS religion." When a Muslim tries to kill me for not converting to his religion, he is going to be quite surprised because I will fight back. After all, isn't that a reason for us all having a gun or two?

 

[Oldgrunt]

Lmafo. I don't think I've ever been called the spawn of satan before by someone who actually believed it. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

The truth terrifies us? For a belief set that's based strictly around empirical evidence I find that argument humorous as well, in a pathetic, you need to try harder sort of way.

We'll never go away or shut up? Funny, I think the same thing every time an idiot like you shows up at my front door. And I do mean an idiot like you, not all Christians. 99% of Christians I know, even the evangelicals, aren't half as retarded as you are.

Until you chimed in, OG and I were having a healthy and entertaining debate. GTFO newb.

Creek: I have enjoyed the repartee on religion but I have tried not to be overtly insulting. We both seem to share a strong belief, just in different religions, that should enable us to converse with civility. Ringo doesn't need any defense by me, he is quite involved and learned in Christianity and is by no means an idiot. You seem to have taken his reference to atheists as a personal affront and responded with rather childish criticism. He did say "atheists" and not Muslims so I guess you thought otherwise. I do enjoy discussing religion with anyone. nosreme is a self-avowed atheist but he does make his arguments in a civil and interesting manner which causes no real animosity. That sort of repartee gives us all a shot at expressing our beliefs without intentionally giving offense. Since the thread is becoming somewhat combative, I will back out because I don't want to be guilty of causing strife and saying something that would be offensive to God. "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself." Guess that can apply to both sides, huh?

 

[JimTh]

Atheist with strong moral compass and values here. Doing good does not require any religion at all. Nor does being christian assure goodness. (History is replete with amoral acts perpetrated by christians, often in the name of christianity). How about something novel: live and let live...respect the morals and values that lead to not bothering those who want to be left alone--and to keeping religion out of schools, science, medicine, and government.

Where do you think you moral compass came from? Do you really think you were born good? If not then who was the first teacher of morals? Do you think you can come up with any kind of virtuous slogan or thought on your own? It needs to be unique and unattributed to any deity that came before you. Let me know because I am always looking for new virtues that can be passed on and most atheists seem to think that virtue springs forth from man. So I am listening!!!

 

[Ringo]

<G> That's a pretty sweeping indictment! The corollary would be for me to say something wholly inaccurate, like, "all christians are annoying bible thumpers who are incapable of thinking for themselves, anti-science because genesis says all that's necessary, anti-education except for bible study, burners as witches of people with warts, burners of scientists..." I think you get my point.

I get your point, I know you get mine.

Atheists thrive by being a parasite on Christianity, and mostly target the shortcomings of individuals. Atheists are so opposed to anything linked to God that their hatred gets in the way of common sense. They believe that nothing, plus nothing, plus time, equals something. All lies begin with self-deceit. Satan (Devil) is self-deceived and the father of all lies, atheists being of their father the devil have the nearest alliance to Satan. The reason for their resistance and rage is because God's word is truth, and the truth terrifies them. Being of their father the Devil (like father like son) these "fools by choice" will never go away or shut up. They have no religion of their own, so the sole purpose of their existence revolves around attacking the validity of the Holy Bible. An awful state of regenerate men, they partake of the same principles and propensities which characterize the very nature and essence of their father the devil! When confronted with any debate atheists are only able to issue negative commentary because, once again, their hatred gets in the way of any common sense. Therefor, as we can see, they foolishly rage and there is no peace and quite.

 

[Ringo]

"all christians are annoying bible thumpers who are incapable of thinking for themselves, anti-science - anti-education except for bible study, burners as witches of people with warts, burners of scientists..

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[gejoslin]

Your missing the point kwimby, and quite defensively. I don't think one religion should be pushed over another. But the president has pretty much proclaimed that if you so much as look wrong at a Muslim, you will be prosecuted for a hate crime. I fall in the camp that all religions should be protected. You know, being free. I'm pretty sure the Civil Rights Act of 1964 made it unlawful for an employer(federal government in this case) to "fail to refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or to otherwise discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions or privileges or employment, because of such individual's race, color, RELIGION, sex or national origin."

The problem is the president loves to abuse our laws in any way that fits his personal agenda. Protecting Christians is clearly not part of his agenda.

Well said Brother, well said!

 

[JimTh]

I'm sorry, did you really just say, in your own words, that without religion you can't be a good person?

Damn, I guess Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Stephen Hawking, Sigmund Freud, Marie Curie, and thousands of other scientists, philanthropists, and all around good people must've actually been total assholes then.

A moral compass in no way relies upon the belief in some mythical deity. Yes, some people get it from that, but to say that your faith is the only possible thing to base your morals on is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. The bible has some good lessons I it, I'm one of the few atheists I know that have read the thing from cover to cover. But IMO, believing everything you read in in the bible because somebody said to, is like believing everything you read on the Internet.

BTW, I'm a French Model. Bon Jour.

You guys really miss the point so completely. What is so damned difficult with you trying to understand that when you were 2 years old that you were a selfish psychotic heathen. You had to be instructed on selflessness and goodness. I ask you who was the first instructor. It wasn't you. Your problem is that you have difficulty when it is pointed out to you that you are not god except to yourself. Where the hell did morality come from? You, your friggin ancestors, the apes you evolved from. Just where? A two year old child in a candy shop? Contrary to your socialism class in college...you were not born good. Neither was mark twain. Hawking is a bit of a fruitcake in my humble opinion. Assholes...I did not know them. But if they also thought they were god then they were, like you, also mistaken.

 

[r1derbike]

Would it surprise anyone that I'm already on Mars because of Spirit and Opportunity rovers? Didn't think so.

Would it surprise anyone that I believe something greater than ourselves, our collective knowledge, our human condition and our inability to comprehend is out there? Didn't think so.

All of our human ignorance has pitted religion and science against each other, to the detriment of both. This isn't a contest to see who wins. It disgusts me when religious and non religious discussions turn into the inevitable "there is a God, there isn't a God" flame war. We may do better than this. We're all humans with different beliefs. That's what makes us unique. Live, and let live.

 

[maine04619]

You join the military you live by the rules set forth. As far as morals those who hold a book above all else are also the ones who claim their morals as stated by ( insert religion ) are the only right ones and all other will go to a very bad place for eternity. Faith gives morals not meaning but consequences. One can be a moral person ( morals vary with place and time ) and not have any faith. I went to a funeral of a very nice lady my wife had known sense childhood the preacher spent the whole time up on the pulpit not talking about how good a person she was or those she helped of the five great kids she raised. Nope he talked about how she was a "subservient" woman who knew her place!

 

[Oldgrunt]

Would it surprise anyone that I'm already on Mars because of Spirit and Opportunity rovers? Didn't think so.

Would it surprise anyone that I believe something greater than ourselves, our collective knowledge, our human condition and our inability to comprehend is out there? Didn't think so.

All of our human ignorance has pitted religion and science against each other, to the detriment of both. This isn't a contest to see who wins. It disgusts me when religious and non religious discussions turn into the inevitable "there is a God, there isn't a God" flame war. We may do better than this. We're all humans with different beliefs. That's what makes us unique. Live, and let live.

Gee, how is the landscape up there? Have you seen any little red or green men yet? Would it also surprise you to know that there are many of us who believe in a higher power and do so love to have discussions about this higher power? Personally, I love to have discussions about religion and enjoy the repartee with those who claim to have no belief whatsoever. I sort of look at it this way, they need the help and I need the practice in offering help. Who knows, maybe a word here or there will be the impetus to starting someone on the right path toward acceptance of God. If not, I will have at least had the opportunity to expose them to the Bible and it's contents. I know these discussions have caused me to read the Koran (Quran?) to verify some claims about Islam and it has given me an understanding of how Muslims have misinterpreted their own holy book and become so radical in their beliefs and actions. To some, Islam is supposed to be a religion of peace but, in practice, is anything but. Christianity has to take it's lumps also because of some of the misguided practices over the years but we still struggle to get it right. For a Christian, the Bible says to "...earnestly contend for the faith." That is what most of us try to do without flaming anyone but, sometimes, maybe a word or two gets under someone's skin. Rather than getting upset, the person should examine himself to see exactly what caused their heartburn. Could it be that sometimes the truth hurts? I don't take offense at atheists when they come on here. Some post comments that will keep you on your toes. That will make you even stronger in your faith.

 

[maine04619]

I love to have discussions about religion and enjoy the repartee with those who claim to have no belief whatsoever. I sort of look at it this way, they need the help and I need the practice in offering help.

This is what I was speaking of. Our way is the only way and we must help you who are not as smart as us do it the right way. If you however tell us we are wrong or can not do what we want you are a bigoted evil atheist and will go to hell forever unless we convert you first. Because we are not allowed to kill you for not believing anymore!!