Unfortunately pretty much all discussions on this forum end up in a digital slapping contest.
Having A Right To Carry Does Not Make You A LEO
- Thread starter White1
- Start date
Unfortunately pretty much all discussions on this forum end up in a digital slapping contest.
walknotinfear
New member
Wow, tons oh mad
people on this.
The situation I posted earlier:
The man that came out of the bank was a citizen with a concealed permit who fired rounds at a bank robber and was exiting the bank.
people on this.
The situation I posted earlier:
The man that came out of the bank was a citizen with a concealed permit who fired rounds at a bank robber and was exiting the bank.
Treo
Bullet Proof
Waaay off topic.fftopic:
Actually no it's not. It address directly Axe's contention that we are at war and we need to fight.
BC1
,
Another rocket scientist endangering the public. If it's not your money you let it go. The bank policy is to give the thief the money an catch him later. Anyone who would shoot in public over someone else's stolen money should be relieved of his gun.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I gotta tell you Treo, when you explain the basis for your opinions, it is the easiest thing in the world for me to understand and agree with. When you don't, it is just as easy to understand and agree with Axe's take on your opinions.
Not a knock so much as an observation: You know how to make yourself understood, but you rarely take the time to employ that knowledge. Thanks for doing it this time is all I'm saying.
Blues
Treo
Bullet Proof
Unless I’m witnessing or trying to communicate the Word it really (IMO) doesn’t matter if I get my point across. When I’m trying to communicate my faith it’s critical and I am absolutely convinced that God will hold me accountable if someone misses the message because I was lazy. So, I'm very careful about what I say and how I say it.
Axeanda45
Banned
*Sigh*
Treo, I just have a few questions for you....
1.How do you KNOW for a fact that THIS govt is supposed to fall according to end times prophecy ?
2. Doesnt God say that no-one knows when , not even Jesus?
3.How can it be a war if only the bad guys fight?
4. Arent you commanded by God to defend the Gift of Life He has given you?
5. Arent you supposed to stand up for what is right and eschew evil?
6. If Obammy signed a "LAW" tomm that outlawed private firearms ownership would you turn yours in? Remember, YOU SAID that God ordained THIS Gov't and we had to obey it.....
I have lots more.... I actually admire your faith, but I am very sorry that you have been misled by preachers... quite a few of your statements sounded really religious, and you swallowed them hook line and sinker when some preacher told them to you... I suggest you do some serious study of Gods Word before you misquote/take out of context any more of it... A hint for you on just one of your mistakes: God ordained government to rule men, in other words, He set the concept of governments into motion... and unless it very specifically HAS TO HAPPEN for His will to be done (prophecy to come to pass), it is all up to us who rules and what type of govt we have.... We are also NOT commanded by Him to follow evil men or govt....
Treo, I just have a few questions for you....
1.How do you KNOW for a fact that THIS govt is supposed to fall according to end times prophecy ?
2. Doesnt God say that no-one knows when , not even Jesus?
3.How can it be a war if only the bad guys fight?
4. Arent you commanded by God to defend the Gift of Life He has given you?
5. Arent you supposed to stand up for what is right and eschew evil?
6. If Obammy signed a "LAW" tomm that outlawed private firearms ownership would you turn yours in? Remember, YOU SAID that God ordained THIS Gov't and we had to obey it.....
I have lots more.... I actually admire your faith, but I am very sorry that you have been misled by preachers... quite a few of your statements sounded really religious, and you swallowed them hook line and sinker when some preacher told them to you... I suggest you do some serious study of Gods Word before you misquote/take out of context any more of it... A hint for you on just one of your mistakes: God ordained government to rule men, in other words, He set the concept of governments into motion... and unless it very specifically HAS TO HAPPEN for His will to be done (prophecy to come to pass), it is all up to us who rules and what type of govt we have.... We are also NOT commanded by Him to follow evil men or govt....
Treo
Bullet Proof
I’m not even sure how to respond to your overall post because to be honest it feels like a tar baby to me. I get the feeling that no matter where I touch it I’m going to get stuck.
I’m not really concerned with your evaluation of my walk with God or my understanding of the Scripture; when the time comes I’ll account to God not you.
As for my belief that we are living in the last days and whether or not this government is the one that’s supposed to fall (I’m not really sure what that even means). I don’t know for sure but I do know that during the tribulation the antichrist will rule the world which means that American will not be a sovereign nation that much is self evident.
Knowing the signs of the times.
Yes, in one Scripture (Matt 24.36) Jesus does state that no one knows the exact time of His return but in the overall totality of Scripture believers are told again and again to be watchful and vigilant and to study scripture that that the day of the Lord won’t catch us by surprise and are even given several specific signs to look for and an admonition that when you see these things look up for your redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21:28).
So, clearly, even though you can’t predict a date Bible believing Christians can have a pretty good idea of when things are wrapping up. In fact in one place the Bible states that we will see the day approaching.
Arent you commanded by God to defend the Gift of Life He has given you?
No where in the Bible does God command me to defend my life, in quite a few places however, it’s made very clear that there’s no point in following Him unless I’m prepared to lose my life in the process.
Arent you supposed to stand up for what is right and eschew evil?
Similarly I’m told nowhere that my main mission in life is to "stand for what’s right". Scripture makes it clear that the ship is sinking and I’m better served trying to get people into the life boats than manning the pumps.
If Obammy signed a "LAW" tomm that outlawed private firearms ownership would you turn yours in? Remember, YOU SAID that God ordained THIS Gov't and we had to obey it.....
Now this one I want to answer specifically because I’ve already dealt with this issue for myself. Right after Sandy Hook when all the media hype was going on I was watching a news story about possible gun confiscations and I turned to my wife intending to say “I’m not turning in my guns” when I am absolutely convinced that God himself spoke to me and said ‘You are going to do whatever I tell you to do.” So that is my answer I’m going to do whatever God tells me to do because I would rather be unarmed and in God’s will than armed to the teeth and out of it.
Finally as for only following “good” governments I find no specific command in Scripture that says we only follow good government. What Scripture does say very specifically (Romans 13) is that Government is instituted of God and that the government in power is there because God allowed it (this would include the current administration) and that we are obey the laws of that government unless they directly contradict the word of God.
PS as for my Biblical scholarship, I am certain I don’t have a perfect understanding of Scripture and I’m equally certain there are things in this post that I’m dead wrong on but that’s OK because I not going to stand before you on judgment day (actually according to Scripture there isn't going to be a judgment for believers but go with me here) I’m going to stand at the judgment seat of Christ and I will be covered in His righteousness and God won’t even remember my sins.
The thing to remember about this post is Even if I’m dead wrong (I don't think I am) and the end times are a thousand years off You are still not promised tomorrow
2 Corinthians 6: 2 Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
tricolordad
Banned
And it has nothing to do with trespassing cops murdering an innocent man.
You continue to miss - or ignore - the point. It's not a matter of placing blame. The guy is DEAD no matter whose fault it is. The after-action analysis is to keep the same thing from happening to any of us in a similar situation. And, until things get to total anarchy or civil war, yeah, there may be a dead cop or two in your scenario, but it will still end the same way - you will be dead, too...
So, tell us, how many cops would you have to take with you for you to consider that YOU won???
As a citizen? I'd take cover and dial 911, unless circumstances don't allow it. At this point I can't be sure who the bad guy is. And the guy isn't threatening me.
Surely le would be cognizant of the same.
But I like treo's answer best, it made me chuckle.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I agree (mostly) with your End Times analysis, and also agree that a logical case can be made that Romans 13 commands submission to government. However, I have to ask, does your understanding of Romans 13 reveal to you that the creation of the United States was an act against God? If so, then how could rebelling against the heirs of the God-instituted authority (today's administration) likewise go against God? If not, then why would separating ourselves from a tyrannical government today be any more against Romans 13 than our forebear's rebellious separation was against Great Britain?
I am not asking to try to trap you into some Biblical inconsistency. I have been reading a lot about Romans 13 over the last year or so and am genuinely trying to understand it in the most Bible-compliant way possible. If you have answers to those questions, great, whether they comport with my self-image of an uncompromising Patriot or not, I would sincerely like to hear them. If you don't, believe me, you won't be the first to say so to me.
Blues
Treo
Bullet Proof
I knew someone was going to ask me that, I just didn’t know who. The most honest answer I can give is I don’t know but when I look at the totality of Scripture the only conclusion I can draw is that the United States exist because God willed it so.
Again, I’m going to lead off with I don’t know. I’m not sure that rebelling against the current administration would be wrong so much as it would be pointless because of where (IMO) we are on God’s timetable. The only legitimate reason I could see for an armed revolt would be to restore the republic and I don’t see it happening. Based on my understanding of Scripture I personally would not take up arms against my government without direct leading from God (and by direct I mean I can back up my decision scripturally and someone other than me agrees that “yes this is of God”) and even then I would expect to lose my life in the process.
Whatever else we may disagree on I would never suspect you of that
This is one of those topics that I have a very hard time articulating. It’s easy to say that God expects me to obey the government unless it directly contradicts his word but actually living that is another thing entirely. I live in a body that is made up of flesh, and my flesh doesn't want to give up it's “rights” I don’t want to give up my toys, I don’t want to give up my guns and I don’t want to give up my freedom but the fact is that one way or another I’m going to give up all of those things one day whether I want to or not.
Biblically I believe I gave up my rights the day I became a Christian. The Bible says we’re bought with a price, bought things are owned and owned thing don’t have rights, they do as they’re told. I want to use Corrie Tenboom as an example she wanted no part of the war she literally wanted to close up the watch shop lock the doors and not open them again until the war was over but God (those are the two most powerful words in the Bible BTW) had other plans for her life. His plan included putting her in the middle of a concentration camp to be a witness that no matter the circumstance she trusted God. Do you think she wanted to walk through that valley?
In my life God has had me put some things on the table and made it very clear to me that my life isn’t my own to do with as I please. Obviously I’ve not had to pay the price that Corrie Tenboom paid and I can’t even say for sure that I would (I hope I have that much faith but I don’t know) I do believe with all my heart that if God leads to me to similar valley then He will also lead me through it.
The only thing I can say about being an uncompromising patriot is that as a Christian I can only claim Jesus Christ as my master. His claim on my loyalty has priority over my marriage vows, my oath of enlistment and every other oath or promise I've ever made.
whodat2710
New member
You assume much, and it sounds like you thinking this is out in the country rather than in a subdivision. At my house, I can be in my driveway, and be in close proximity to several others. In the house pictured in the article you can see the next door neighbors house right next to his, so I assume the picture was probably taken from the driveway across the street. You can't see his garage from the street, so him being actually in his driveway makes sense.
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Yes, he was in his driveway, but where were the cops? They could very well have been at the RIGHT address across the street AND seen him in his driveway with a gun. Cops at the right address find no bad guy and see a guy across the street with a gun. Is he a bad guy? I don't know, but if I am the cop I don't want him with a drawn weapon until I find out.
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Now from the victims standpoint, you keep ranting about property rights. You damn sure have the right to protect your property, but if the neighbor thinks that protecting HIS property means having an alarm, his choice. Am I gonna die protecting someone elses property if they choose not to do so? Might be different if it was family, or if it was the actual neighbor, but not his property.
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You speak of tactics. This man is in a large brick home. He hears his neighbors alarm go off and has no idea if there are bad guys, or how many. Could have been a dog setting off the alarm for all he knows. If I am protecting my property, I am verifying that I am locked and loaded and that the safety is off, while making sure my doors are locked. Bad guy(s) across the street, if there are any, may want to hide in my house when the cops show up and that ain't gonna happen. I'm turning on the outside lights and making sure my family is safe. Period. He tries to break in he has a surprise waiting for him, if it's the cops that stop by looking for him they will knock and identify themselves.
E
ezkl2230
Guest
One thing seems VERY lear to me about this situation - both of the officers responding to the call were rookies. Big, Big, BIG mistake! This is why most departments try to pair them up with more seasoned officers. Turning rookies without adequate experience loose on a situation like this and expecting them to handle it like a veteran officer is expecting way too much. So the officers responding were rookies who made things worse by going to the wrong house. The department screwed the pooch on this call all the way around.
The family released a statement two day after the initial reports came out, saying that their father was actually in his own garage when he was shot. Sorry, I don't know the law in Texas, but Michigan law says you have the right to defend yourself anywhere on your property, even against police who are on your property without cause.
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The family released a statement two day after the initial reports came out, saying that their father was actually in his own garage when he was shot. Sorry, I don't know the law in Texas, but Michigan law says you have the right to defend yourself anywhere on your property, even against police who are on your property without cause.
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ezkl2230
Guest
I understand your position that you gave up your rights when you became a Christian, by which I mean that one turns their rights to the control of their lives over to God. However, this doesn't mean that one loses ALL of their rights, period, without qualification, referring to the rights we enjoy under the laws of the land. The Apostle Paul understood his rights as a Roman citizen well, and he made use of them to prolong his life and ministry. Look at Acts 16:36-38 as one example. Paul ended up appealing his case all the way to Caesar. You are dealing with two distinct sets of rights; spiritual rights regarding the control of one's life and destiny vs. rights protected by law.
Treo
Bullet Proof
Yes and no.
Yes I have legal rights, I can refuse to allow the police to search my car, I can refuse to answer questions, and I can refuse to incriminate myself. But those rights ultimately come from God and He can rescind them at will. Again using Corrie Tenboom as an example, she lost all of her civil liberties, as, ultimately, did Paul.
So, I’m glad for the gift of my civil liberties but they’re really nothing more than vapor
Treo
Bullet Proof
Louis L’Amour once said “There’s no cause worth dying for that isn’t better served by living for.”
I don’t see this as a case of standing up for your rights because no matter what, as soon as you confront the cops it isn’t going to end well for you. Either way you end up in jail or dead and no one’s gained anything. As I’ve stated numerous times in this thread the proper way to handle this situation is within the system. Which means in the moment you comply with the cop’s orders because you’re not going to survive any other course of action alive and with your freedom intact; if the police violate your civil liberties and you really think it’s worth it you pursue the matter in court.
I don’t see this as a case of standing up for your rights because no matter what, as soon as you confront the cops it isn’t going to end well for you. Either way you end up in jail or dead and no one’s gained anything. As I’ve stated numerous times in this thread the proper way to handle this situation is within the system. Which means in the moment you comply with the cop’s orders because you’re not going to survive any other course of action alive and with your freedom intact; if the police violate your civil liberties and you really think it’s worth it you pursue the matter in court.
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ezkl2230
Guest
Did you notice that I said, "protected by law," not "granted by law?"
Corrie and Paul didn't LOSE their God-given rights, they were forbidden the EXERCISE of those rights. Nothing in the Bible indicates that God "rescinded" their God-given rights. But we live in a world in which evil leaders who do not recognize those rights bring their powers to bear to prevent us from the free exercise of them. The slaves always had rights; man simply refused to recognize them for many years. As the SCOTUS case, United States v. Cruikshank says (I know, I'm quoting this one a LOT lately!),
The Danbury Baptists made a similar argument in their letter to Pres. Thomas Jefferson. They observed that they were being treated as if their God-given freedom of religion was in fact a gift from generous legislators instead of a God-given, unalienable right.
We can't have our rights taken away from us, but the exercise of those rights rights can certainly be curtailed. To say that GOD can rescind them is also incorrect, because they are part of His very nature, and they are part and parcel of being created in His image. For God to rescind them is to change who He is, and the Bible tells us God doesn't change (Mal. 3:6, James 1:17).
