Having A Right To Carry Does Not Make You A LEO

[Axeanda45]

How is someone on their own property doing something 100% Constitutional somehow stupid and deserving of being murdered? That is how I see your arguments..... You try to place the blame on him because you THINK it was unwise for him to do what he did..... Yet, EVERYTHING he did infringed on no other persons rights, broke no laws, but it is just something you THINK he shouldnt have done.....

Well, You can shove your "people should only do things this way because I think it is stupid to do it another way (as in exercising their RIGHTS)" up your azzes.......

You are on a "RIGHTS" forum... If you dont have the balls to defend someone exercising their rights even when you might not agree with HOW they choose to do it, then you are fooling yourselves into thinking you support "rights"... All you support is your opinion......

 

[ares338]

A forum is supposed to support a civil exchange of ideas IMO. I have seen a lot of personal attacks on this thread stemming from some not liking others having an opinion. Come on people, all opinions have some validity usually. You can disagree without the personal attacks.

 

[Axeanda45]

A forum is supposed to support a civil exchange of ideas IMO. I have seen a lot of personal attacks on this thread stemming from some not liking others having an opinion. Come on people, all opinions have some validity usually. You can disagree without the personal attacks.

I havent seen ANY "personal" attacks.... Please, show them to us....

A little English lesson for you: A personal attack is an attack ON A PERSON...... Not an attack on a bad idea or statement...

 

[Chris Rakes]

i would like to answer the OP. "having a right to carry does not make you a LEO". i would like to say that it makes you better then a LEO. a LEO is just a government worker. a paper pusher that has no obligation to help you. their only purpose in this society, is to charge some one with a crime so that 1. money can be extracted, 2. they can be put in prison where money can be spent.

my argument is that NO government worker should be allowed to carry a gun. they already have the color of law on their side. if they were only allowed to carry non-lethal armament. then at least there would be less killings going on.

 

[Axeanda45]

i would like to answer the OP. "having a right to carry does not make you a LEO". i would like to say that it makes you better then a LEO. a LEO is just a government worker. a paper pusher that has no obligation to help you. their only purpose in this society, is to charge some one with a crime so that 1. money can be extracted, 2. they can be put in prison where money can be spent.

my argument is that NO government worker should be allowed to carry a gun. they already have the color of law on their side. if they were only allowed to carry non-lethal armament. then at least there would be less killings going on.

Nice first post.....

 

[gejoslin]

This is what I've learned from this discussion.
Any time you're in a dangerous situation, you're armed and the police show up, it's a pretty good idea to ID yourself to the cops just so they don't blow you away. Stand where you have cover, call out, then ID yourself. Then they can ascertain your not a threat. After all both parties are out for the same reason. Only sounds like common sense to me. That one thing would have kept him alive. But you never know they may have blasted him anyway.YMMV

 

[Treo]

You KEEP ignoring the FACT that the cops were NOT supposed to be where they were!!!!!! The COPS are the ones who are 100% in the wrong here, period....

I’m sure that thought is very comforting to the widow.

Threaten me on my own property (which telling me to disarm most certainly IS a threat) or anywhere I can legally be and you have just flipped the "GO" switch..... No waiting to see if you have made a "mistake" and gotten the wrong address.... Too bad, so sad for YOU mr thug....... It is NOT my responsibility to ascertain who it is who is attacking me once YOUR attack has started.

There is a difference between sacrificing your life for a good cause and pissing it away in a suicide by cop.

Again, we don’t know totality of the circumstances but assuming a uniformed police officer in a clearly marked patrol vehicle; if a cop tells you to put the gun down… you put the gun down.

Whether you’re on your property or not, in the moment when both of you are armed isn’t the time to argue with the cop about whether he’s justified in disarming you. That’s the time to comply and hash it out later in court.

You have nothing to gain defying the cop and spouting off about your rights. It’s not going to end well for you and you’re either going to die or go to jail having gained nothing in return.

Doesn’t common sense dictate that you don’t push for “your rights” when it’s not of benefit to you?

 

[Kramer1113]

75 Years from now everything you own will wither be gone or belong to someone else. There is no property worth your life, Just ask someone who has lost virtually everything in a natural disaster i.e. Oklahoma Twisters.
Any instruction a LEO gives should be followed. This being said consequences are yours, not mine.
It is best to not have a fire arm in your hands when Law Enforcement arrives. However, if you need to maintain control of a situation and cannot disarm as Law Enforcement arrives Identify yourself and follow all instructions.
The ability to arrive at a situation and determine who is the good guy and who is the bad guy is not always as clear as you may think it is.
Tragic situation when you are innocent and shot and killed on your own property. Negative impact all around.
Thieves do not stay contained in or on the property they are stealing from. Sad story, sorry it happened.
We will have long forgotten it and those directly involved will still feel its impact.

 

[Axeanda45]

I see.. according to treo and a couple other people here, I should just drop to my knees and open my mouth any time a cop breaks the law and comes onto my property illegally.... got it.....

gejoslin has a much better take on how a situation should play out in the real world when cops criminally trespass.... But I dont see the cops not shooting at you even AFTER you have identified yourself as a freindly/not the perp at least... But his is good advice to at least try to not have anyone die on either side (and there ARE sides in this war)..

As far as sacrificing myself as treo put it... My Rights are worth dying for, I guess his arent...... And the courts belong to the govt... 'nuff said

As far as obeying any order given from an leo should be followed, as kramer puts it, I say no effing way! They are NOT my God OR my boss or my betters.... They have ZERO authority when on my property illegally, and will be treated worse than a common criminal would be on my property, as THEY ARE BEING PAID BY ME (and you) TO UPHOLD THE LAW, NOT to break it.....


The Govenment no longer follows/obeys the "rule of law", the Courts rule that blatantly UnConstitutional legislation is Constitutional, Cops kill with impunity, (and so on and so on... read the news sometimes, and get a clue before it is too late ) and yet some of you people are trying to convince me to trust them!
Now, THAT is funny right there.........


Here is a little advice to you: make the hard decisions NOW before they come for you, or you will pizz yer panties and end up licking their boots, or find yourself on your way to a re-education or internment camp or such..... or dead anyway, without even having fought back... Now, THAT is what I would call a waste.....

 

[walknotinfear]

I hate Monday quarterbacking this situation but here it goes. I in the past have done the same as this elderly man did but I have many years of law enforcement training under my belt that I can fall back on (no longer in law enforcement). Now that I am a full fledge private citizen I have had a few occasions when I have excited my home with a firearm after I though crime 'was a foot' outside my home. But the safest way to do this in my opinion is with a holstered weapon either Open carry or Concealed carry. This way you do not have a accidental shooting by either plain clothes law enforcement officers or a uniformed law enforcement officer. These types of accidents do happen and even police officers shoot other officers in the heat of the moment. I can recall a plain clothes officer at a college football game in a parking lot working was shot by a uniformed officer. Unfortunately accidents do happen. I do not blame the responding police officers for using deadly force on this elderly person. It is tragic and my heart goes out to the gentlemen who lost his life.
May I suggest that all of you think real careful before you act. So before you rush to pull a weapon think first and real hard. For example: I am a private citizen carrying a legally concealed firearm and I was getting out of my personal vehicle. As I approached the front of a bank I heard 4 gun shots coming from inside the bank. I immediately reverted to my training and took cover / concealment behind a big black SUV. I than see a white male exiting the front of the bank with a silver revolver in his right hand . Now the question I pose to you all. What would you have done at this point after hearing gun shots from inside the bank and now seeing a male exiting the Bank with a firearm in his right hand? (The following is not a true even but for training purposes only) I do have an outcome of this but want to hear from you all before I tell you the end of this untrue event.

 

[Axeanda45]

Unless the person with the gun turns it on me or an innocent, gather as much info as possible while calling 911... Any more questions?

 

[Treo]

I’m really beginning to believe you are playing devil’s advocate in all this

I see.. according to treo and a couple other people here, I should just drop to my knees and open my mouth any time a cop breaks the law and comes onto my property illegally.... got it.....
As far as obeying any order given from an leo should be followed, as kramer puts it, I say no effing way! They are NOT my God OR my boss or my betters.... They have ZERO authority when on my property illegally, and will be treated worse than a common criminal would be on my property, as THEY ARE BEING PAID BY ME (and you) TO UPHOLD THE LAW, NOT to break it.....

I outlined a pretty specific set of circumstances which you seem to be ignoring. First, we have a situation where one would reasonably expect the police to show up. Second, I specified that you know the person is in fact a cop because they arrived in a clearly marked patrol unit and they are wearing a uniform. Unless you are engaged in some activity where you would have reason to believe that someone would go to that amount of trouble to impersonate a cop, you can be fairly certain it’s a cop and that you aren’t going to get a good reaction by escalating the situation by refusing his commands. Your best chance of a good out come for you in this case is to follow his commands now and sue the Hell out of him later. Why is that so hard to understand?

gejoslin has a much better take on how a situation should play out in the real world when cops criminally trespass.... But I dont see the cops not shooting at you even AFTER you have identified yourself as a freindly/not the perp at least... But his is good advice to at least try to not have anyone die on either side (and there ARE sides in this war)..
As far as sacrificing myself as treo put it... My Rights are worth dyingfor, I guess his arent...... And the courts belong to the govt... 'nuff said

The Govenment no longer follows/obeys the "rule of law", the Courts rule that blatantly UnConstitutional legislation is Constitutional, Cops kill with impunity, (and so on and so on... read the news sometimes, and get a clue before it is too late ) and yet some of you people are trying to convince me to trust them!Now, THAT is funny right there.........

Now let’s talk about this part of the post. To be perfectly honest it all sounds like “bold talk for a one eyed fat man”.

You’ve stated numerous time in this thread that we are on an “at war footing” so if you’re such a bad ass why aren’t you out there on the front lines? Just your last paragraph above gives (IMO) ample cause to take up arms why aren’t you doing it? If you really believe that things are that far gone then don’t you have a duty to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic? If you truly believe that we are that far down the road then why aren’t you and your Constitutional Militia mustering on the green?

The fact is that society has not yet reached a tipping point (and again, IMO, it never will) and we are still very much in a place where the appropriate method of redress is with in the system.

The fact that you believe that too is self evident in the fact that you aren’t out there on the barricades.

Here is a little advice to you: make the hard decisions NOW before they come for you, or you will pizz yer panties and end up licking their boots, or find yourself on your way to a re-education or internment camp or such..... or dead anyway, without even having fought back... Now, THAT is what I would call a waste.....

To be honest I have no doubt that the above is going to happen but I won’t be here to see it. As I’ve stated numerous times on this forum I am convinced we are living in the last days. That’s one of the reasons I don’t believe there’s going to be any resurgence of the Constitutional Republic.

I believe that in a short time (possibly with 5 years ) The United States will cede it’s sovereignty to a unified world government and give away most of it’s civil liberties. I further believe that the decision to do so will meet with almost unanimous approval by the American populace.

 

[Treo]

example: I am a private citizen carrying a legally concealed firearm and I was getting out of my personal vehicle. As I approached the front of a bank I heard 4 gun shots coming from inside the bank. I immediately reverted to my training and took cover / concealment behind a big black SUV. I than see a white male exiting the front of the bank with a silver revolver in his right hand . Now the question I pose to you all. What would you have done at this point after hearing gun shots from inside the bank and now seeing a male exiting the Bank with a firearm in his right hand? (The following is not a true even but for training purposes only) I do have an outcome of this but want to hear from you all before I tell you the end of this untrue event.

Ok in the above situation I revert to training. I put out flankers and have my SAW set up a base of fire behind the ATM. I have the 203 gunner start laying down smoke while I call for ARTY and close air. When the smoke clears I call for medical support process casualties and EPWs as necessary

 

[Axeanda45]

I’m really beginning to believe you are playing devil’s advocate in all this Possibly....




I outlined a pretty specific set of circumstances which you seem to be ignoring. Ignoring your theory/story because we arent talking about YOUR scenerio here, we are talking about what happened to the INNOCENT man who got MURDERED by the cops..First, we have a situation where one would reasonably expect the police to show up. HOW do YOU KNOW the man knew the police were on the way? were you there?Second, I specified that you know the person is in fact a cop because they arrived in a clearly marked patrol unit and they are wearing a uniform. AGAIN, HOW do you know this for a fact? Unless you are engaged in some activity where you would have reason to believe that someone would go to that amount of trouble to impersonate a cop, you can be fairly certain it’s a cop and that you aren’t going to get a good reaction by escalating the situation by refusing his commands. Your best chance of a good out come for you in this case is to follow his commands now and sue the Hell out of him later. Why is that so hard to understand? Why is it so hard for YOU to understand we arent talking about what YOU THINK HAPPENED in YOUR IMAGINATION, but what the limited info we do have from the news story...



Now let’s talk about this part of the post. To be perfectly honest it all sounds like “bold talk for a one eyed fat man”.

You’ve stated numerous time in this thread that we are on an “at war footing” so if you’re such a bad ass why aren’t you out there on the front lines? I AM Just your last paragraph above gives (IMO) ample cause to take up arms why aren’t you doing it? How do you have ANY CLUE that I am NOT? If you really believe that things are that far gone then don’t you have a duty to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic? I do, as do all who took their oath seriously...If you truly believe that we are that far down the road then why aren’t you and your Constitutional Militia mustering on the green? The "green" can be many things... I HAVE mustered on some of them, have YOU?

The fact is that society has not yet reached a tipping point (and again, IMO, it never will) Your opinion is wrong, in my opinion, so there! and we are still very much in a place where the appropriate method of redress is with in the system. THERE is where you are greatly mistaken.... at you and your family's peril....

The fact that you believe that too is self evident in the fact that you aren’t out there on the barricades. What barricades? who is the delusional one here?


To be honest I have no doubt that the above is going to happen but I won’t be here to see it.
Again, delusion... You really need to start taking this stuff seriously. As I’ve stated numerous times on this forum I am convinced we are living in the last days. I have no doubt that is true, at least I am not denying the depth of the issue, you seem to have your head in the sand thinking if you just ignore the facts they cant harm you or they will just pass you by...That’s one of the reasons I don’t believe there’s going to be any resurgence of the Constitutional Republic.

I believe that in a short time (possibly with 5 years ) The United States will cede it’s sovereignty to a unified world government and give away most of it’s civil liberties. I further believe that the decision to do so will meet with almost unanimous approval by the American populace. You hang out with defeatists, dont you? It seems you are already defeated in your own mind and are just waiting for the new boss.... I truly pity you and those like you... At least I will die a free man

Not that you would care, but I have lost much respect (that I actually had, again, not that it matters) for you with this post you wrote... It shows your true colors... And I dont like what I have seen.

 

[Kramer1113]

You break even Treo, I like you.

 

[Treo]

I don’t live for your respect Axe.

Let me break it down for you very clearly

The Bible makes it very clear that this earth and our society will have an end and that the world will grow darker as that end approaches. I believe that we are living in that time right now. It’s also stated quite clearly that at some point during the tribulation period the entire world will be under the political, economic and religious control of one man (whom the Bible calls the anti Christ). At that time the humanity (what’s left of it) will be under total government control and will have no rights except to choose to serve the antichrist and live (for a time at the price of eternal separation from God) or to serve God and die. The bible also states that most of the world will choose to serve satan. There’s not going to be some vast American uprising Most Americans will (have already) rejected the founding principles of this country and there’s nothing you can do about it.

the Bible says that we should pray for our leaders because God placed all of them (including Obama) in their position over us. We should also pray for our nation and for revival but the Bible also says that there’s going to come a day when God raises his hand and says “Enough” and judgment is going to begin. I believe that is what we are seeing now.

The Bible states that as we draw near to the end people will become not only more sinful but more openly sinful. They’ll embrace their sin and revel in it and they’ll become more evil and more brutal towards each other and that they’ll have no love in their heart. I believe we are also seeing this now.

There are people out there feeding the hungry, healing the sick and carrying the Gospel to all the peoples of the Earth but even though they (we) are called to stand against the tide they (we) were never intended to turn the tide. Judgment is coming and it is going to begin in the house of the Lord.

I’m not sure exactly how to say this but I don’t see the value in trying to change or challenge a political system that God said isn’t going to change (except for the worse) As a Christian I’m not called to restore the Republic, I’m called to tell people the truth which is that God has appointed a day in which He will judge this world and that on that day those who have rejected Jesus Christ will be eternally seperated from God in a place the Bible calls "The Lake Of Fire" and there is no name given under heaven or in earth whereby a man can be saved except the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[NotTwoShure]

http://www.albatrus.org

My premise is the Bible is the Word of my G_d, Lord and Savior.
If someone does not believe the Bible is the infallible Word of G_d I cannot discuss morality on the same plane. Right and Wrong, Black and White – No grey areas in my Book that is.

 

[tricolordad]

From the article:

"She said that she was told by the police that an officer asked Waller to put down the weapon, but he would not comply."

Sounds like a legit shoot to me. As unfortunate as it is for all concerned. If the police tell you to drop your weapon and you refuse to comply, you get what you got coming.

Cop raids my house without cause and assaults me, he will be lucky to get a shot off. Groupie. I have a right to kick it in my garage, regardless of an intruder's clothes or "uniform."

Let's reverse the scenario: As the property owner, I see three armed intruders in my driveway. Fearing for my family's safety and the safety of the community, I order them to drop their weapons. They begin to raise them and I kill all three. If a law abiding citizen tells you to drop your weapon and you refuse to comply, you get what you got coming.

 

[tricolordad]

In this situation I keep coming back to the guy had no business out there in the dark to begin with.


Before I can even get to the cops shooting him I have to answer those questions because if I can’t answer them I’m back to square one, if he had stayed in the house you wouldn’t be reading this post.

Regardless of what my neighbor is doing on his property, there is no curfew that requires me to be inside my house after dark. The last sentence is so asinine, all I'm going to say is this: Regardless of what my neighbor is doing on his property, there is no curfew that requires me to be inside my house after dark.

Your whole position is baaaaaa baaaaaa baaaaaa!

 

[tricolordad]

I don’t live for your respect Axe.

Let me break it down for you very clearly

The Bible makes it very clear that this earth and our society will have an end and that the world will grow darker as that end approaches. I believe that we are living in that time right now. It’s also stated quite clearly that at some point during the tribulation period the entire world will be under the political, economic and religious control of one man (whom the Bible calls the anti Christ). At that time the humanity (what’s left of it) will be under total government control and will have no rights except to choose to serve the antichrist and live (for a time at the price of eternal separation from God) or to serve God and die. The bible also states that most of the world will choose to serve satan. There’s not going to be some vast American uprising Most Americans will (have already) rejected the founding principles of this country and there’s nothing you can do about it.

the Bible says that we should pray for our leaders because God placed all of them (including Obama) in their position over us. We should also pray for our nation and for revival but the Bible also says that there’s going to come a day when God raises his hand and says “Enough” and judgment is going to begin. I believe that is what we are seeing now.

The Bible states that as we draw near to the end people will become not only more sinful but more openly sinful. They’ll embrace their sin and revel in it and they’ll become more evil and more brutal towards each other and that they’ll have no love in their heart. I believe we are also seeing this now.

There are people out there feeding the hungry, healing the sick and carrying the Gospel to all the peoples of the Earth but even though they (we) are called to stand against the tide they (we) were never intended to turn the tide. Judgment is coming and it is going to begin in the house of the Lord.

I’m not sure exactly how to say this but I don’t see the value in trying to change or challenge a political system that God said isn’t going to change (except for the worse) As a Christian I’m not called to restore the Republic, I’m called to tell people the truth which is that God has appointed a day in which He will judge this world and that on that day those who have rejected Jesus Christ will be eternally seperated from God in a place the Bible calls "The Lake Of Fire" and there is no name given under heaven or in earth whereby a man can be saved except the name of Jesus Christ.

Waaay off topic. fftopic: