Open carry confrontations

[Bikenut]

I am an ex Detroit LEO, Air Force sky cop and about to go to work for a department down here, so yes, LE is my chosen career path. As I have stated, I am only breaking the law if the shop owner sees my weapon, asks me to leave and then I refuse. The actual act of walking into his store is not against the law, rather against the wishes of the store owner.

I would suggest that since the store owner's wishes have the force of the trespass laws that disobeying his wishes IS against the law. If disobeying his wishes wasn't against the law then no one could be arrested for disobeying them.

No shirt, no shoes is an automatically seen entity the minute someone walks into the door, so the first thing an owner will ask is for them to leave.

Hmmm... isn't that the same idea the criminals have of... "It's not breaking the law if no one knows I was breaking the law"? Or to put it another way... "I can do what I want as long as I don't get caught"?

But that mentality ignores the fact that the person doing it knows (and has already been "caught".... by himself)... and that is where personal integrity comes into play. Criminals don't have any... but I would hope a LEO would have a great deal of integrity.

I admit, I am just being lazy because I don't want to get into my vehicle, fight with traffic so as to go to another store. It's not intentionally disrespecting the store owners wishes. It is not like I am saying "screw this guy, I'm going in anyway". Rather I am thinking "damn it, I either have to go and unstrap my weapon and leave it in my car (which I would NEVER do), or get back into traffic, waste another 20 minutes just so I can go to another store with no sign". I do see it as being selfish though and I will start practicing shopping elsewhere.
Just another quick question for y'all. What if every store, every building and every public place had this sign on it? Wouldn't that mean we would not be allowed to carry our weapons anywhere?

Part of my reply is in blue above.......

Yes you are saying, and I quote: "screw this guy, I'm going in anyway" end quote.. and you are using the selfish and self centered excuse of, and I quote: "damn it, I either have to go and unstrap my weapon and leave it in my car (which I would NEVER do), or get back into traffic, waste another 20 minutes just so I can go to another store with no sign" end quote.. to justify it as being Ok to do.

However you have gained a small measure of respect for having recognized what you have been doing for the disrespect it really is and decided to not do this any longer and respect the rights of others by shopping elsewhere.

As for your question of

What if every store, every building and every public place had this sign on it? Wouldn't that mean we would not be allowed to carry our weapons anywhere?

It would effectively mean we would only be able to exercise our right to bear arms on/in our own property (as the property owner we give ourselves permission to exercise the right to bear arms) and on/in publicly owned property (the bill of rights controls how public property is managed by the government and "we the people" have already given ourselves permission to exercise the right to bear arms with the 2nd Amendment).

 

[Firefighterchen]

But, say these 2 videos are real, 100% truth. Are you saying, it's worse to open carry because 2 out of thousands and thousands of open carriers over the past decade were targeted, and it's better to concealed carry when hundreds of concealed carriers have to defend themselves EVERY DAY because they look unarmed?

No, you asked for him to show proof. He just did. Now you're going to backpedal and question the validity of the proof and put words into his mouth. I'm all about questioning but these seem pretty cut and dry.

I'm not questioning the validity of the first link. Maybe you missed it, but I did post, " First link is the most recent story of a gun grab I have heard, and it is legitimately a civilian open carrying and having his firearm taken." Seems you forgot to put that in your quoted text...or maybe it was just laziness?

I don't need to question the validity of the 2nd link anymore than it all ready has across multiple threads here and places like THR and firing line. I'd love to look them up and paste them here for you. But if I can look them up, so can you.

So which is it, was I questioning or putting words in his mouth? Because I see question marks. Questions it seems you didn't want to answer either.

 

[kwimby]

It's interesting to me that a troll can walk in here and derail the entire disscussion and no one seems to notice what's happening

You should spend more time lurking.

Maybe someday you too can become a troll!

 

[kerb]

You know what I was saying. In the context that it was brought to me, it is not a question of honesty. So don't misquote or purposefully omit sections in an attempt to make me look bad. That is how the mainstream media does its business. Signs do not carry the weight of the law in my state. So I am following the law. As far as going into someone's home, of course I wouldn't enter while armed. But I wouldn't be around people if they don't agree with the second. If I need something for a store and they have a sign up requesting me to not be armed, guess what? They don't respect the Constitution so I don't have to respect their request for me to not practice my Constitutionally guaranteed right.

You said you would knowingly carry onto a property when you know that the owner doesn't want you to. Without the owner's knowledge.

It's pretty black and white. I don't see how I twisted anything. Rationalize it all you want, but you aren't being honest. Not with the business owner. Not even with yourself. If you are in the right, why not be up front about it with the business owner?

Just out of curiosity, what state do you live in?

 

[kerb]

What a rational person will say is it is wise to consider who, what, where, when and why they carry the way they do in any particular situation. Making blanket claims they subscribe to under all conditions regardless of common sense seems to be the other viewpoint.
Not for OC'ers. This concept is incomprehensible to them for some reason.

Explain to me how it is safer for Joe Citizen not to know that someone is armed, as opposed to knowing the person is armed.

 

[kerb]

I pretend I'm praying when others around me pray, I let people in when traffic is heavy, I say please/thank you, yes sir/ma'am, I never kill anything I don't eat, I hold doors for people, I give the nod to strangers I pass by on the street, when someone lets me into traffic I wave thank you. Hell, I even clean the litter box for my wife's cats. I'm not selfish or self centered. In one case, I may be a bit lazy. And that is the not wanting to fight traffic to go to another store just because they have a sign up. I'm no saint. And none of us are. We all have our negative aspects. I tend to hate traffic and wasting time. So I save it by not having to shop elsewhere when everything I need is 10 feet from where I parked.

You left out how you have no familiarity with the truth. You claim you do, but that's kinda like Obama claiming to be a Republican.
And you claim you are going through a police academy somewhere soon?

Wonderful. Just wonderful.

 

[kerb]

Right, I said I would carry onto the owners property. Since that is not breaking the law, that is my freedom of choice to be a selfish prick to do that. It is also his freedom to ask me to leave if he sees it. If he does and I don't leave then I am breaking the law. I live in the south.

You are being far too kind in your self assessment.

 

[kerb]

How does this quote have anything to do with me claiming familiarity of the truth? And it is wonderful. If I happen to stop you, rest assured I won't be one of those cops who are not courteous, professional and polite, as this quote does happen to show that I tend to be more often times than not. And I have worked for another department before. I quit because I saw things I thought were opposite of professional and when brought to the attention of my superiors, they essentially told me that is the way they did things. So my integrity is unquestionable.

Your actions say otherwise.

 

[Bikenut]

I see fullyarmedcitizen's posts are disappearing like melting snow .... I wonder if the realization that what is posted on the internet can have an effect on future job opportunities, especially in the LE field, had anything to do with it?

Oh wait... I see what you did there fullyarmedcitizen...

 

[Bikenut]

double post....

 

[Treo]

I see fullyarmedcitizen's posts are disappearing like melting snow .... I wonder if the realization that what is posted on the internet can have an effect on future job opportunities, especially in the LE field, had anything to do with it?

Oh wait... I see what you did there fullyarmedcitizen...

I think spanky has left the building

 

[Gr8gunz]

So you think people doing something LEGAL deserve to be harassed because there are some in society who fear firearms? By this logic you also think it is ok to call the police and have the group of black guys walking towards you on a public street should also be stopped and harassed because someone had a irrational fear of them.

Perfectly stated. Additionally there is no data that supports the myth that people who OC become "first targets".

 

[Glockout]

If you have the choice to not give money to a business that does not allow guns, why would you choose to not shop there? There are a million other places to shop that don't have signs. And then to make a half assed attempt to justify it as a means of bringing the law into it. There is not a law that says I have to hold the door open for a person when I walk out of a place, but I do anyway. It's called common courtesy.

 

[tricolordad]

Wow, the asian dude knows how to use fonts! Impressive!

Looks like the Napoleon complex is still alive and well. :no:

As usual, you've exhausted your arguing points and go straight to the racism...

 

[Gr8gunz]

I remember quite well when CCW was first becoming popular throughout the states and the horrified liberals were quick to make their opposing arguments. 1. It will turn into the wild wild west. 2. People will shoot each other over confrontations in the grocery store. 3. Drive by shootings will become more prevelent and road rage will now result in shooting deaths. 4. The badguy will get your gun and shoot you with it. 5. etc. etc.

Well, none of this happened and the libs have been forced to shut their mouths for the most part. The opposition to OC is almost identical to the original anti CCW libs. Emotion based conjecture without a shred of evidence and preposterous presumptions of motive. "You just wanna look like a badass. You are compensating for some weakness within your personality. It is a phallic symbol. The badguy will get it and shoot you with it"

The anti-OC people are no better than the Feinstein/Brady anti-gun libs and do not even deserve our responses. Let them stew in their own baseless fear.

 

[SouthernBoy]

I remember quite well when CCW was first becoming popular throughout the states and the horrified liberals were quick to make their opposing arguments. 1. It will turn into the wild wild west. 2. People will shoot each other over confrontations in the grocery store. 3. Drive by shootings will become more prevelent and road rage will now result in shooting deaths. 4. The badguy will get your gun and shoot you with it. 5. etc. etc.

Well, none of this happened and the libs have been forced to shut their mouths for the most part. The opposition to OC is almost identical to the original anti CCW libs. Emotion based conjecture without a shred of evidence and preposterous presumptions of motive. "You just wanna look like a badass. You are compensating for some weakness within your personality. It is a phallic symbol. The badguy will get it and shoot you with it"

The anti-OC people are no better than the Feinstein/Brady anti-gun libs and do not even deserve our responses. Let them stew in their own baseless fear.

The difference is that the strong bias against open carry is mostly coming from gun people who carry concealed. Just peruse any website that caters to the carrying of firearms and this becomes very apparent and obvious. Makes one wonder. I mean... I had thought for years we were all on the same side. This division in our ranks only serves the goals of the anti's, because it certainly doesn't serve us.

 

[Treo]

Open carry is the tool of Satan

 

[Glockout]

Open carry is the tool of Satan

And terrorists. You are inflicting terror on the oh so delicate masses. It's terror at its finest terrorizing the terror inflicted public. Terror.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Open carry is the tool of Satan

It does separate the sheep from the goats.

 

[carracer]

Open carry is the tool of Satan

Words fail me! Great one Treo!