Here's you gun grab....

[Rich_S]

Well... the ignorant part of both statements in question, I would say, would be "many". A more realistic statement would be "A small minority or percentage of..."

I also find it humorous how, if someone makes exactly the same statements about police officers, there would be a number of posters who would come back with "you are just being anti-cop, as usual."

Quantifying "many" really depends on what your definition of "is" is. I've made it clear that I hope to never need to draw my gun and I would hold fire in scenarios where many others would not so I obviously don't fall into the category that you mentioned. Wouldn't you agree?
You have mentioned that you enjoy open carry gatherings in public places. Can you elaborate on the purpose of these gatherings and why you enjoy them?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Quantifying "many" really depends on what your definition of "is" is. I've made it clear that I hope to never need to draw my gun and I would hold fire in scenarios where many others would not so I obviously don't fall into the category that you mentioned. Wouldn't you agree?
You have mentioned that you enjoy open carry gatherings in public places. Can you elaborate on the purpose of these gatherings and why you enjoy them?

Yes, I agree. The purpose of the meet and greet gatherings is to meet with people with similar beliefs as myself, talk about whatever comes up, enjoy good food and company. No different than if parents of soccer kids would get together, church groups, computer clubs, chess clubs, car clubs. Sometimes a trip to a gun range will be planned before or after the meet and greet just like a ball game or church service might be for those groups.

Sometimes the events might be scheduled in support of a fellow member who has had an incident. For example, following my illegal eviction from a restaurant by a police officer for open carrying, the owner of the restaurant called me and apologized (the management of the restaurant had no part of the police action at all, and it was conducted without their knowledge) and stated that I, my friends and family, and firearms were more than welcome to come back. So, about 12 of us carrying guns, with our families, showed up the following weekend for a luncheon. The restaurant got our business, the serving staff got our generous tips, a good time was had by a bunch of people, and the local police were invited on a social basis only, but they chose not to come. Everybody gained something positive from the get together.

 

[maybejim]

mr. maybejim, it sounds to me like you're projecting. my firearm is to protect myself and the ones i love, not to kill the first BG that poses a threat. therefore, my weapon remains concealed, so that i'm not singled out as this unfortunate fellow obviously was. that was my point, nothing more. if my life is in danger, i would rather have the element of surprise in my favor. is that a little more clear sir? not everyone who advocates "element of surprise" is a bloodthirsty psychopath, which it seems to me you're insinuating.

To each his own. I don't carry openly because most of the time I can't (I live mostly these days in Kalifornia) so I carry concealed. But all the attacks on those who do open carry seems a bit much. I have to wonder at the dissing of our brothers who choose to open carry. The arguments for mode of carry are reasonable on both sides. I am yet to see any evidence of BG's singling out someone because he is open carrying. Other people doing it need to get over themselves and grow up but the evidence doesn't seem to be that that is much happening either. The few people that are alarmed by law abiding citizens open carrying need to be acclimatized to it. That only will happen when more people open carry. That can only help us ease out of the idiot unconstitutional laws that we are under these days.

 

[Deserteagle]

I support open carry and concealed carry which is why I will do both soon enough. Ill have my Glock on my belt, and my soon to be purchased Springfield XD(M) in my waistband. If a business owner or cop doesnt like my open gun, Ill put it away and keep carrying my XD. After all, if you need to carry one gun, you may as well carry 2.
P.S. Im not joking here.


Oh and the more specific relevance to this thread: If somebody stronger than me manages to steal my open carry gun from me, they will probably get a nice surprise when I pull out the XD

 

[Rich_S]

Yes, I agree. The purpose of the meet and greet gatherings is to meet with people with similar beliefs as myself, talk about whatever comes up, enjoy good food and company. No different than if parents of soccer kids would get together, church groups, computer clubs, chess clubs, car clubs. Sometimes a trip to a gun range will be planned before or after the meet and greet just like a ball game or church service might be for those groups.

Sometimes the events might be scheduled in support of a fellow member who has had an incident. For example, following my illegal eviction from a restaurant by a police officer for open carrying, the owner of the restaurant called me and apologized (the management of the restaurant had no part of the police action at all, and it was conducted without their knowledge) and stated that I, my friends and family, and firearms were more than welcome to come back. So, about 12 of us carrying guns, with our families, showed up the following weekend for a luncheon. The restaurant got our business, the serving staff got our generous tips, a good time was had by a bunch of people, and the local police were invited on a social basis only, but they chose not to come. Everybody gained something positive from the get together.[/QUOTE

Really? So it's not to cause a spectacle in public with a group of people with guns and then ask people if the sight of your gun scares them and offer a tissue?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Really? So it's not to cause a spectacle in public with a group of people with guns and then ask people if the sight of your gun scares them and offer a tissue?

No. My signature line is directed as those "pro-gun", "pro-2A" people on this forum who can't seem to tolerate Americans who don't normally hide their guns away like they feel the need to. I'll be happy to send you a box of monogrammed tissues, Rich_S.

 

[X1911]

The open carry attention whores have more cases of OC preventing crime than leading to it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The open carry attention whores have more cases of OC preventing crime than leading to it.

The problem is the open carry attention whores will never know exactly how many crimes they deter, because the criminals aren't coming up to them saying, "You are so lucky I saw that gun, otherwise, I would have jacked you up!"

 

[Rich_S]

No. My signature line is directed as those "pro-gun", "pro-2A" people on this forum who can't seem to tolerate Americans who don't normally hide their guns away like they feel the need to. I'll be happy to send you a box of monogrammed tissues, Rich_S.

ROFL- Yeah, OK....thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Tucker's Mom]

unfortunately this is a lesson hard learned in why open carry is a bad idea 98% of the time. i believe that it should be an individual's choice, but in practice? it's just asking for trouble. while i'm proud of my right to carry a firearm, i'm a firm believer in the element of surprise, as long as i'm not the one being surprised. that being said, rest in peace, mr. tyler

While reading the posts, I was wondering when the first ones of the same post as above will come...smile NavyLCDR, you are on candid camera!!! LOL

 

[S&W645]

If you conceal you need to make sure it stays concealed. I have never seen a IWB holster that had any type of retention system.

Say what? Or don't you consider a strap and snap that goes crossed the hammer or back of the slide a retention system? IE, a Galco IWB with thumb break.

 

[Warbirds]

If you conceal you need to make sure it stays concealed. I have never seen a IWB holster that had any type of retention system.

Say what? Or don't you consider a strap and snap that goes crossed the hammer or back of the slide a retention system? IE, a Galco IWB with thumb break.

I said.... I have never seen......

I had to do a google search to find what you were saying. There are no thumb snap IWB holsters for any gun I own and I had rio look around for the model you were mentioning. So let me correct myself. Most (from what I have seen) IWB holsters do not have retention.

 

[BC1]

Say what? Or don't you consider a strap and snap that goes crossed the hammer or back of the slide a retention system? IE, a Galco IWB with thumb break.

When carrying IWB our belt generally acts as the retention system. The deep concealment nature of IWB carry prevents most gun-grabs because it's very hard to tell a person is armed. I always recommend a good locking retention system or themb break holster for OC.

 

[NavyLCDR]

While reading the posts, I was wondering when the first ones of the same post as above will come...smile NavyLCDR, you are on candid camera!!! LOL

I didn't figure it would take very long for someone from the "element of surprise" group to surprise us with their "element of surprise!"

 

[Grognard Gunny]

I believe it was "localgirl" who astutely observed that the only "element of surprise" is on the part of the BG and we are the ones generally "surprised", "situational awareness" notwithstanding.

Thus it seems to me to be more a trade off between "Surprise! I've got your gun." and "Surprise! Mine was hidden and I still have it." Just sayin'.

Either way, I really have no observational data to work with. I have YET to see an genuine OC civilian on the streets, and NC is an open carry State. Conversely, I may have "seen" countless thousands of CC folks and wouldn't know it.

Hey. Whatever warms your coffee, right?

GG

 

[BC1]

I believe it was "localgirl" who astutely observed that the only "element of surprise" is on the part of the BG and we are the ones generally "surprised", "situational awareness" notwithstanding.

Thus it seems to me to be more a trade off between "Surprise! I've got your gun." and "Surprise! Mine was hidden and I still have it." Just sayin'.

Either way, I really have no observational data to work with. I have YET to see an genuine OC civilian on the streets, and NC is an open carry State. Conversely, I may have "seen" countless thousands of CC folks and wouldn't know it.

Hey. Whatever warms your coffee, right?

GG

Anyone schooled in advanced civilian defense understands the use of surprise as a tactic. Most often used to break the OODA loop of the attacker, it can turn the incident quickly. However these skills require training and some understanding of behavioral science. The better training schools offer this skill set in advanced tactical pistol. Much of the training we provide deals with the SSS of tactical defense (Stealth, Surprise, Skill). I'll take age and treachery over youth and bravado anyday.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Anyone schooled in advanced civilian defense understands the use of surprise as a tactic. Most often used to break the OODA loop of the attacker, it can turn the incident quickly. However these skills require training and some understanding of behavioral science. The better training schools offer this skill set in advanced tactical pistol. Much of the training we provide deals with the SSS of tactical defense (Stealth, Surprise, Skill). I'll take age and treachery over youth and bravado anyday.

However, the value of enhancement of the counter attack by the tactical use of the element of surprise must be weighed against the value of the visible firearm to enhance deterring the crime from even beginning. This cannot be a universial evaluation applicable to all situations and locations - mostly location.

There are locations where there will not be much deterrent value to a visible firearm. Some locations, (personally, I would say the majority of locations) the deterrent value of the visible firearm far outweighs enhancement to the couter attack that the element of surprise will provide.

In addition - the criminal is not guaranteed to even see the openly carried firearm. In that case, the element of surprise is further enhanced because there is less movement associated with drawing an openly carried firearm than drawing one from a concealed location.

One must remember, the element of surprise is not a defensive tactic by itself. The bad guy already has effectively used the element of surprise against the victim, placing them in a self-defense situation to begin with. The victim then must counter-attack. The element of surprise is only an enhancement to the counter-attack which must also include speed, skill and precision in order to be successful.

 

[Tom S]

Gun grabs from civilians happen so rarely it is news when it happens. This is a statistical anomoly. It means nothing except to the two poor fellas that were murdered by the thugs. I prefer concealment, but that is my personal preference. Thankfully I live in a state that allows both. It's nice to have options......

 

[BC1]

However, the value of enhancement of the counter attack by the tactical use of the element of surprise must be weighed against the value of the loss of the element of surprise to enhance deterring the crime from even beginning. This cannot be a universial evaluation applicable to all situations and locations - mostly location.

There are locations where there will not be much deterrent value to a visible firearm. Some locations, (personally, I would say the majority of locations) the deterrent value of the visible firearm far outweighs enhancement to the couter attack that the element of surprise will provide.

In addition - the criminal is not guaranteed to even see the openly carried firearm. In that case, the element of surprise is further enhanced because there is less movement associated with drawing an openly carried firearm than drawing one from a concealed location.

One must remember, the element of surprise is not a defensive tactic by itself. The bad guy already has effectively used the element of surprise against the victim, placing them in a self-defense situation to begin with. The victim then must counter-attack. The element of surprise is only an enhancement to the counter-attack which must also include speed, skill and precision in order to be successful.

Yes. This is true. Surprise is merely a component in the action/reaction. One must still draw and fire with speed, accuracy and precision.

Ever notice these kinds of brazen acts seem to be the work of younger perps?

 

[Agent Green]

The open carry attention whores have more cases of OC preventing crime than leading to it.

Gee, how's that work in the rare cases it even does? Lemme see, could it be because of intimidation? Nah, OCers claim they never carry to intimidate others. Besides, most of the people they meet are criminals so why should it matter?