Say NO!!!

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My family and I go to Shanksville, PA or are at the Pentagon on the anniversary every year except last year. We were in DC for the march.
How many people know that the monument at Shanksville is in the form of a crescent that faces Mecca? The families have expressed their displeasure and have been ignored. Seems the political goals are over-riding the wishes of families and community.
 
My family and I go to Shanksville, PA or are at the Pentagon on the anniversary every year except last year. We were in DC for the march.
How many people know that the monument at Shanksville is in the form of a crescent that faces Mecca? The families have expressed their displeasure and have been ignored. Seems the political goals are over-riding the wishes of families and community.

THESE ARE THE FACTS

Controversy
This design "drew criticism from some religious groups and online blogs."[11] A photojournalist wrote at zombietime that:[12]

The winning design chosen to memorialize the heroes and victims of 9/11’s Flight 93 is in the shape of a red crescent that looks–either accidentally or intentionally–remarkably like an Islamic crescent.
...[A]n azimuthal equidistant world map ... seems to indicate that the crescent is oriented toward Mecca.
Jury member Tom Burnett Sr., whose son was killed in the crash, said he made an impassioned speech to his fellow jurors about what he felt the crescent represented, "I explained this goes back centuries as an old-time Islamic symbol," Burnett said. "I told them we'd be a laughing stock if we did this."[13] Representative Tom Tancredo of Colorado has opposed the design's shape "because of the crescent's prominent use as a symbol in Islam." Mike Rosen of the Rocky Mountain News wrote: "On the anniversaries of 9/11, it's not hard to visualize al-Qaeda celebrating the crescent of maple trees, turning red in the fall, "embracing" the Flight 93 crash site. To them, it would be a memorial to their fallen martyrs. Why invite that? Just come up with a different design that eliminates the double meaning and the dispute."[14]

The architect asserted that this is coincidental and that there was no intent to refer to Muslim symbols. Several victims' families agreed, including the family of Edward P. Felt.[15]

Others criticized the design as too non-representational. "We don't need giant statues of the guys ramming the drink cart into the door. But pedantic though such a monument might be, future generations would infer the plot. All you get from a Crescent of Embrace is a sorrowful sigh of all-encompassing grief and absolution, as if the lives of all who died on that spot were equal in tragedy. They were not," wrote James Lileks, a journalist and architectural commentator.[16]
DESIGN MODIFICATIONS
[edit] Design modifications
In response to criticism, the designer has agreed to modify the plan. The architect believes that the central elements can be maintained to satisfy criticism. "It's a disappointment there is a misinterpretation and a simplistic distortion of this, but if that is a public concern, then that is something we will look to resolve in a way that keeps the essential qualities," Murdoch, 48, said in a telephone interview to the Associated Press.[17]

The redesigned memorial has the plain shape of a circle (as opposed to a crescent) bisected by the flight's trajectory. "The circle enhances the earlier design by putting more emphasis on the crash site, officials said in the newsletter. A break in the trees will symbolize the path the plane took as it crashed."[18] There is criticism that the redesign does not address any of the issues with the original design.[who?]

The redesign has been unveiled and can be seen at the NPS official web page for the memorial. Architect Paul Murdoch describes it as follows:

"The image is an aerial view from the bowl looking towards the Sacred Ground. To the left in the background, a walkway approaches from an arrival court along the edge of and overlooking the Sacred Ground. The walkway eventually widens in from a ceremonial gate, shown in bronze, and the wall of names, composed of 40 panels of 3-inch (7.6 cm)-thick slabs of polished white granite, 8 feet (2.4 m) tall, each inscribed with a name of the 40 heroes. Two walls flanking the gate are clad in polished white granite and the flight path is paved with black granite. Beyond the gate is the impact site, shown planted with wildflowers, and the hemlock grove beyond."[19]

Flight 93 National Memorial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FROM THE PARK SERVICE
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Which ones are we supposed to hate? All of them, or just certain ones? Here is a list for you to choose from.
BTW, all the 911 hijackers were from Saudi. Saudi's are great friends with the oil billiionare Bush and Channey families.
Let us know who the bad ones are.

A comprehensive 2009 demographic study of 232 countries and territories reported that 23% of the global population or 1.57 billion people are Muslims.[8] Of those, an estimated 87–90% are Sunni[7][137] and 10–13% are Shi'a,[8][7] with a small minority belonging to other sects. Approximately 50 countries are Muslim-majority,[138] and Arabs account for around 20% of all Muslims worldwide.

The majority of Muslims live in Asia and Africa.[139] Approximately 62% of the world's Muslims live in Asia, with over 683 million adherents in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh.[140][141] In the Middle East, non-Arab countries such as Turkey and Iran are the largest Muslim-majority countries; in Africa, Egypt and Nigeria have the most populous Muslim communities.[142]

Most estimates indicate that the People's Republic of China has approximately 20 to 30 million Muslims (1.5% to 2% of the population).[143][144][145][146] However, data provided by the San Diego State University's International Population Center to U.S. News & World Report suggests that China has 65.3 million Muslims.[147] Islam is the second largest religion after Christianity in many European countries,[148] and is slowly catching up to that status in the Americas.


Denominations

Distribution of Islamic schools and branches in areas where large Muslim population are foundMain article: Islamic schools and branches
Islam consists of a number of religious denominations that are essentially similar in belief but which have significant theological and legal differences. The primary division is between the Sunni and the Shi'a, with Sufism generally considered to be a mystical inflection of Islam rather than a distinct school. Sunnis make up the largest branch of Islam[137][159][160] followed by the Shi'a[161] and the remaining number may belong to a variety of other Islamic sects.[162]

Sunni

Movements in IslamMain article: Sunni Islam
Sunni Muslims are the largest group in Islam, comprising the vast bulk of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims, hence the title Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamā‘ah (people of the principle and majority). In Arabic, as-Sunnah literally means "principle" or "path". The Qur'an and the Sunnah (the example of Muhammad's life) as recorded in hadith are the primary foundations of Sunni doctrine. Sunnis believe that the first four caliphs were the rightful successors to Muhammad; since God did not specify any particular leaders to succeed him, those leaders had to be elected. Sunnis believe that a caliph should be chosen by the whole community.[137][159]

There are four recognised madh'habs (schools of thought): Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali. All four accept the validity of the others and a Muslim may choose any one that he or she finds agreeable.[163]

Shi'a
Main article: Shia Islam
The Shi'a constitute 10–13% of Islam[7] and are its second-largest branch.[164] They believe in the political and religious leadership of Imams from the progeny of Ali ibn Abi Talib, who according to most Shi'a are in a state of ismah, meaning infallibility. They believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib, as the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was his rightful successor, and they call him the first Imam (leader), rejecting the legitimacy of the previous Muslim caliphs. To most Shi'a, an Imam rules by right of divine appointment and holds "absolute spiritual authority" among Muslims, having final say in matters of doctrine and revelation. Shias regard Ali as the prophet's true successor and believe that a caliph is appointed by divine will.[165] Shi'a Islam has several branches, the largest of which is the Twelvers (iṯnāʿašariyya) which the label Shi'a generally refers to. Although the Twelver Shi'a share many core practices with the Sunni, the two branches disagree over the proper importance and validity of specific collections of hadith. The Twelver Shi'a follow a legal tradition called Ja'fari jurisprudence.[166] Other smaller groups include the Ismaili and Zaidi, who differ from Twelvers in both their line of successors and theological beliefs.[167]

Sufism

Sufi whirling dervishes in TurkeyMain article: Sufism
Sufism is a mystical-ascetic approach to Islam that seeks to find divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God. By focusing on the more spiritual aspects of religion, Sufis strive to obtain direct experience of God by making use of "intuitive and emotional faculties" that one must be trained to use.[168] Sufism and Islamic law are usually considered to be complementary, although Sufism has been criticized by salafi for what they see as an unjustified religious innovation. Many Sufi orders, or tariqas, can be classified as either Sunni or Shi'a, but others classify themselves simply as 'Sufi'.[169][170] Some Sufi groups can be described as non-Islamic when their teachings are very distinct from Islam.


Ahmadiyya
Main article: Ahmadiyya
Ahmadiyya is an Islamic religious movement founded towards the end of the 19th century and originating with the life and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908). Ghulam Ahmad was an important religious figure who claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies about the world reformer of the end times, who was to herald the Eschaton as predicted in the traditions of various world religions and bring about the final triumph of Islam as per Islamic prophecy. He claimed that he was the Mujaddid (divine reformer) of the 14th Islamic century, the promised Messiah (“Second Coming of Christ”) and Mahdi awaited by Muslims.[171][172][173][174][175] Ahmadi emphasis lay in the belief that Islam is the final law for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries. Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam.[176]

Others
There are also Muslims who generally reject the Hadith, often called Quranists.
The Kharijites are a sect that dates back to the early days of Islam. The only surviving branch of the Kharijites is Ibadism. Unlike most Kharijite groups, Ibadism does not regard sinful Muslims as unbelievers. The Imamate is an important topic in Ibadi legal literature, which stipulates that the leader should be chosen solely on the basis of his knowledge and piety, and is to be deposed if he acts unjustly. Most Ibadi Muslims live in Oman.[177] There are communities of Ibadis that took refuge in the Mzab oases in southern Algeria, the Nafusa Mountains in western Libya, and in Djerba Island (Tunisia), in order to avoid persecution in certain periods of history.[178]
Other religions
The Alevi, Yazidi, Druze, Bábí, Bahá'í, Berghouata and Ha-Mim movements either emerged out of Islam or came to share certain beliefs with Islam. Some consider themselves separate while others still sects of Islam though controversial in certain beliefs with mainstream Muslims.

Wow... Look at this post... Lots of data or FUD? Humm... His posts are beginning to look like the "gypsy's" (no offense to Bo, just making a point here)... Taking up way too much space on the server here... There should be no posting about religion...

Blahhh Blahhh Blahhh... SOS...

Your opinions, while quite impassioned, have lost their oomph... Just state your opinion and forgo all the semantics. Wow, listen to me telling you what to do... I'm sure you won't read it when you quote it...

Perhaps you should run for a political office so you can make decisions without the support of your voting constituents... A true democrat...:pleasantry:

Peace...
 
I HAVE A SNIPER
"Wow... Look at this post... Lots of data or FUD? Humm... His posts are beginning to look like the "gypsy's" (no offense to Bo, just making a point here)... Taking up way too much space on the server here... There should be no posting about religion...

Blahhh Blahhh Blahhh... SOS...

Your opinions, while quite impassioned, have lost their oomph... Just state your opinion and forgo all the semantics. Wow, listen to me telling you what to do... I'm sure you won't read it when you quote it...

Perhaps you should run for a political office so you can make decisions without the support of your voting constituents... A true democrat..."

Sorry, I didn't post my source. Here ya go:
Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't like my postings? Then don't read them.

I would be terrible in public office. I am way to honest, and actually care about people.

One more thing, the last democrat I voted for was Jimmy Carter. I know, I know, but after Ford let tricky dick off the hook, I couldn't take it. Were you even born then?
 
image911.jpg
 
I HAVE A SNIPER
"Wow... Look at this post... Lots of data or FUD? Humm... His posts are beginning to look like the "gypsy's" (no offense to Bo, just making a point here)... Taking up way too much space on the server here... There should be no posting about religion...

Blahhh Blahhh Blahhh... SOS...

Your opinions, while quite impassioned, have lost their oomph... Just state your opinion and forgo all the semantics. Wow, listen to me telling you what to do... I'm sure you won't read it when you quote it...

Perhaps you should run for a political office so you can make decisions without the support of your voting constituents... A true democrat..."

Sorry, I didn't post my source. Here ya go:
Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't like my postings? Then don't read them.

I would be terrible in public office. I am way to honest, and actually care about people.

One more thing, the last democrat I voted for was Jimmy Carter. I know, I know, but after Ford let tricky dick off the hook, I couldn't take it. Were you even born then?

Ahhhh. The trumpeting of a true democrat... "For the good of all the people I'll make this decision for you." "After all I know better what you really need." A mosque at the site of the fallen Twin Towers, what a great idea."...

I like your posts by the way... :wink:

I recall the Carter years, I was alive, but not old enough to make a difference politically. I do remember my father being unhappy with him as most Americans were. I recall the lines at the gas stations etc...Age really matters little in the discussion at hand don't you think?

Peace...
 
:stop::stop::stop:
where on eath did you get they all want americans dead?

I can assure you, if the muslims that live here wanted me dead, just like viet nam, I would be out wearing my fanny pack, and Ben Cartright consealment vest looking to take out all them son's of Islam.

According to the world stat's a full 10%+ of all Muslims are of the Islamic radical sect that preach, teach, and practice Jihad, AKA death to all infidels. It has been on the evening news that they are active in the United States, news crews have managed to sneak into and video one of their rants in a US Mosque. Along that line of reasoning that my friend is the huge majority of the US population which are, and I even have a T shirt saying that.... Infidel.

That number according to your own figures is actually closer to 157,000,000, so I rounded down a tad in my post... Bottom line is can you tell the difference between the ones on the street that are peaceful and the ones that are not, I sure can't....

edit: no Icy that is not a racist flag, that is a Confederate battle flag, and although some may wish to distort it as a racist banner, nothing is further from the truth, any racism in this symbol of a bygone era is in the eye of the beholder.... nothing else.
 
According to the world stat's a full 10%+ of all Muslims are of the Islamic radical sect that preach, teach, and practice Jihad, AKA death to all infidels. It has been on the evening news that they are active in the United States, news crews have managed to sneak into and video one of their rants in a US Mosque. Along that line of reasoning that my friend is the huge majority of the US population which are, and I even have a T shirt saying that.... Infidel.

That number according to your own figures is actually closer to 157,000,000, so I rounded down a tad in my post... Bottom line is can you tell the difference between the ones on the street that are peaceful and the ones that are not, I sure can't....
Please quote your sources regarding these violent people.

Yes, how do WE tell the difference? I have an idea.

"Anyone who runs is a radical Muslim. Anyone who stands still is a well disciplined radical Muslim."

Are we to become the Crazy door-gunner?
YouTube - The scene in full metal jacket with the crazy door gunner.
 
OK... So we all have pretty strong opinions here... Be they right (in who's eyes?), be they wrong (again in who's eyes?), Be they unpopular (with whom? and why?), be they full of anger and hate, be they peaceful and tolerant, WE ALL HAVE ONE AND ARE ENTITLED TO IT!!! By the fact that we are Americans we have the God given right of free thought and the ability to speak or write our peace...

I think I'm done with this thread...:biggrin:

Peace...
 
What is with the racist flag in the back window of that PU?

psst,,,the south didn't win.

Racist flag?? You are showing your ignorance iceman. The flag of the Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

If you want to argue the point please dont waste my time if all you bring to the table is the FUD put out by the MN public education system. My wife is from MN & I know 1st hand how pathetic it is.

Pssst... If the South did win this would be a better country today!
 
Racist flag?? You are showing your ignorance iceman. The flag of the Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

If you want to argue the point please dont waste my time if all you bring to the table is the FUD put out by the MN public education system. My wife is from MN & I know 1st hand how pathetic it is.

Pssst... If the South did win this would be a better country today!

Dang straight. And it may not be over, yet. The issue of states rights is again coming to the fore.
 
Please quote your sources regarding these violent people.

It varies from source to source most agree on the radical 100,000,000 ball park number as they each have different figures on just what the world total of Muslims are out there, but here have fun reading....

The “Tiny Percentage” of Radical Islamists ? Pursuing Holiness
Documentary Exposes Radical Muslim Rhetoric
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If you would like to see them there are a heap more out there...... Just google it.....
 
The Confederate Battle Flag in the past few decades has been waved by some very evil racist groups. The flag represents the Confederate States of America and the proud nation that once was. It is part of the culture, history, and heritage of the South. Many religious symbols have also been associated with hate groups. Should we also ban the cross? Lee and most of the Generals in the South did not own slaves or feel they were fighting the war over slavery. Lee and Jackson were gentleman and fine Christian Soldiers who were fighting in "The War of Northern Aggression". Lee and the rest of his men would not be in any of the hate groups of today. It is a crime that such a great & noble flag has become a symbol of hate & racism to so many people. Do not think of this flag as a symbol of racial hate but as noble symbol of a past when a proud Southern Military existed. Do not ban the Confederate Battle Flag because hate groups wave it at rallies. The flag is not the problem!! Hate and racism is the problem. The flag has nothing to with hate and everything to do with a proud Southern History.
 
The Confederate Battle Flag in the past few decades has been waved by some very evil racist groups. The flag represents the Confederate States of America and the proud nation that once was. It is part of the culture, history, and heritage of the South. Many religious symbols have also been associated with hate groups. Should we also ban the cross? Lee and most of the Generals in the South did not own slaves or feel they were fighting the war over slavery. Lee and Jackson were gentleman and fine Christian Soldiers who were fighting in "The War of Northern Aggression". Lee and the rest of his men would not be in any of the hate groups of today. It is a crime that such a great & noble flag has become a symbol of hate & racism to so many people. Do not think of this flag as a symbol of racial hate but as noble symbol of a past when a proud Southern Military existed. Do not ban the Confederate Battle Flag because hate groups wave it at rallies. The flag is not the problem!! Hate and racism is the problem. The flag has nothing to with hate and everything to do with a proud Southern History.

It is very unfortunate when a hate group takes up a symbol and uses it hence tainting it foreaver... Case in point the Nazi swastika was used by the early American Indians as a good luck charm, as had other society's, but it will be forever tainted by Hitler and his evil....
 
OK... One more post... That's it...

It is human misinterpretation and visual association that is the cause for the misunderstanding.

Case in point... When you look at this image what do you see?

Link Removed

In India, swastika have been around since 3000 B.C. Their direction is clockwise and anticlockwise. In both directions they have a different meaning. For Buddhists, Hindus and Dschanists the Swastika is a sacred symbol, comparable with the Cross for the Christians or the Star of David in Judaism.

Peace...
 
The arguments...

Here are the most commone arguments against the Confederate flag. It is astonishing how the liberal media and the public (socialist) school system have effectively polluted the minds of so many!!

Argument #1

Argument
"Since the Ku Klux Klan fly the Confederate flag, it has become a symbol of hatred, racism and intolerance. We cannot let our state (or school or whatever) project an image of racism by flying a
Confederate battle flag or something that contains the Confederate battle flag."

First, many in the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) do not fly the Confederate battle flag. In fact, only a small number actually use a Confederate flag. However, the KKK bylaws require the U.S. flag and
the Christian flag to be present at every event. Most people are not aware that the largest KKK membership is in the North and it has been that way since the early 1900s.Pennsylvania has one of the largest K.K.K. memberships in the U.S., followed by California. Are either one of these Southern States? I think not! As a matter of fact, both were Yankee states during the War Between The States. Mr. Boyd Lewis, a Klan expert who spoke at DeKalb College in Atlanta, states that at the height of Klan power, "Indiana had the largest Klan population with over 2 million members between 1915-1916," (71). Most KKK groups prefer to use a U.S. flag or a Christian flag, yet oddly enough, no one is calling for the permanent censorship of those symbols!

Americans have been programmed, by the liberal media, into believing that the KKK is only a "Southern Thing" and that only Southern symbols must pay for the Klan's transgressions. A
free-lance photographer and friend once related with frustration at how the newspapers never buy or use his photographs if they show the Klan carrying a U.S. flag. "They only want to use the photographs that show a Confederate flag." Based on the magnitude of media bias that would have us believe the Confederate flag and the Klan go hand-in-hand, although incorrect, it is understandable why people have the perceptions they do. However, those perceptions are based
on false information, and it is the perception that must be changed, not the symbol that has been victimized by the perception.
At one time, man had the perception that the earth was flat. This was because his eyes were giving his brain false information, which was also fed by the many stories told and retold by sailors at sea.
However, once we acquired accurate geographical information, we were forced to change our perception and accept the fact that the earth was not flat, but round. We must likewise change our false perceptions of Confederate symbols as being symbols of the Klan, when it truth, they are not.

Second, the use of a symbol by a person or group, does not convey the characteristics of that person or group to that symbol. For example, Malcolm X and the nation of Islam were indisputably, the black equivalent of David Duke and the Klan. Both lived and preached racial hatred. Both claimed to have found religion and converted. If the Confederate flag symbolizes the Klan's white racism against blacks, then we must interpret the "X" of Malcolm X, emblazoned on the clothes of many black consumers, as being symbolic of Malcolm X's black racism against whites. Intolerance of one symbol insures the intolerance of the other.

Argument #2

Argument:
"Confederate symbols represented history at one time, but
Confederate-Americans have not acted to protect the sanctity
of their symbols from use and abuse by hate groups, thereby
Southerners have forfeited their claim to these symbols."

Southerners never willingly gave up their symbols 130 years ago and the same is true today. The abduction of our symbols by another group, does not constitute forfeiture, especially when there is no recourse for preventing their use by another group. Ironically, the same liberals who burn and abuse the U.S. flag and Confederate flags, are the same ones who work to overthrow the laws that are designed to protect those symbols from abuse. Even when the flag being abused is the U.S. flag, the courts have ruled that laws against such abuse are unconstitutional. If there is no recourse for protecting the U.S. flag from abuse by hate groups, how can any flag be protected? If the Nation of Islam marches with the black liberation flag, should we assume that this flag now represents the same racism and anti-Semitism espoused by this "hate group"?

Argument #3

Argument
"Confederate symbols should not be honored because they
are cruel reminders of the by-gone era of slavery and
slave-trade."

Slavery was a legal institution in this country for over 200 years. Africans were brought here by northern slave traders to be used in northern industry, long before the antebellum South or the
Confederacy ever existed. The first American colony to legalize slavery was Massachusetts in 1641, only 17 years after the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. "The slave trade became very profitable to the shipping colonies and Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and New Hampshire had many ships in the triangular trade," (72). "The moral argument against slavery arose early in the New England shipping colonies but it could not withstand the profits of the trade and
soon died out." (73).

Thomas Jefferson condemned the slave trade in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, but the New England slave traders lobbied to have the clause stricken. In a short eleven year period form 1755 to 1766, no fewer than 23,000 slaves landed in
Massachusetts. By 1787, Rhode Island had taken first place in the slave trade to be unseated later by New York. Before long, millions of slaves would be brought to America by way of 'northern' slave ships. After all, there were no Southern slave ships involved in the triangular slave, it was simply too cruel.

William P. Cheshire, the senior editorial columnist for the Arizona Republic recently noted, the New England Yankee who brought slaves to America, "were interested in getting money, not in helping
their cargo make a fresh start in the New World." He adds that northern slave ownership "isn't widely known - American textbooks tend to be printed in Boston, not Atlanta - but early New Englanders not only sold blacks to Southern planters but also kept slaves for themselves as well as enslaving the local Indian population," (74).

Slavery did not appear in the South until northern settlers began to migrate South, bringing with them their slaves. It was soon discovered that while slaves were not suited to the harsh climate and working conditions of the north, they were ideal sources of cheap labor for the newly flourishing economy of the agricultural South. Of the 9.5 million slaves brought to the Western Hemisphere from 1500 - 1870, less than 6% were brought to the United States. This means that our Hispanic, British and French neighbors to the south owned over 94% of the slaves brought to the New World. In the South, less than 7% of the total population ever owned a slave. In other words, over 93% of Southerners did not own any slaves, (75).

Attempts to outlaw the slave trade in the north only increased the profits of smuggling. In 1858, only two years prior to the birth of the Confederacy, Stephen Douglas noted that over 15,000 slaves had been smuggled into New York alone, with over 85 vessels sailing from New York in 1859 to smuggle even more slaves. Perhaps it was their own guilt that drove the abolitionists of the day to point an accusing finger at the South, while closing their eyes to the slavery and the slave trade taking place in their own back yards.

For more than 200 years, northern slave traders made enormous profits that furnished the capitol for future investments into mainstream industries. Who is more responsible for slavery in America, the Southern plantation owner who fed and clothed his slaves, or the New England "Yankee" slave trader who brought the slaves here in the first place?

From 1641, when Massachusetts first legalized slavery, until 1865, when the Confederate struggle for independence ended, slavery was a legal institution in America that lasted over 224 years. The
Confederate battle flag flew for 4 of those 224 years, but the U.S. flag and its colonial predecessors flew over legalized slavery for ALL of those 224 years. It was the U.S. flag that the slave first saw, and it was the U.S. flag that flew on the mast of New England slaves ships as they brought their human cargo to this country. It is clear, that those who attack the Confederate flag as a reminder of slavery are overlooking the most guilty and hateful of all reminders of American slavery, the U.S. flag.

Argument #4

Argument:
Confederate symbols should not be tolerated because they
represent a government that fought a war to keep blacks in
bondage and to preserve the institution of slavery.

This is one of the most commonly used arguments against Confederate symbolism and one of the easiest to prove false. Everyone knows that the South (and the North) had slavery until
1865. The north had slavery at least until 1866, due to some holdouts like Union General Ulysses S. Grant who refused to give up his slaves until the passage of the 13th Amendment. General Robert E. Lee on the other hand, freed every slave that he had, prior to the War. General Lee sent money on a regular basis to Africa, to one of his freed slaves, even after the War, so he could educate his son, and start his business that he always dreamed of having. This was made possible due to Lee's generosity. That does not sound like racism to me.

Prior to 1866, slavery was completely legal. The Supreme Court had ruled favorably on the legality and constitutionality of slavery. Presidents Buchanan and Lincoln both promised many times, that they would not interfere with the practice of slavery. New laws were recently put on the books protecting slave owners from loss of slave property due to theft or runaways. Add to that, the fact that the Confederate states constituted the fifth wealthiest region in the world. The slave owning
states had all of these things and more. So why on earth would Southern states secede from the United States? Surely, no one believes that the South would have left the security of the Union and
gone to fight a war for something they already had! Countries do not fight wars for the things they have, they fight wars to obtain the things they do not have.

To emphasize how safe the institution of slavery was, let's look at what it would have taken to eliminate it. Since slavery was enshrined in the U.S. Constitution, it would require a constitutional amendment and that is very difficult to achieve. Two-thirds of the House and Senate must agree to the amendment and then three-fourths of all the states must vote to ratify the amendment before it can become part of the U.S. Constitution. This simply would never have happened as long as the Southern states stayed in the Union! That's right, with the South in the Union, the northern and Southern slave states would have voted down any attempt to amend the Constitution, thereby
guaranteeing that the institution of slavery could continue almost indefinitely. So you see, it is quite easy to prove that the South did not secede and fight a war to maintain slavery, an institution they already possessed.

What the South did not have was financial freedom. Southerners were slaves to the industrial demands of the north, just as blacks were slaves to the agricultural demands of the South. Growth potential was severely limited in the South, so long as the north continued to levy heavy tariffs on things that Southerners needed to purchase and heavy taxes on those things that Southerners produced. In the words of South Carolina senator John C. Calhoun in 1850, "The north has
adopted a system of revenue and disbursements, in which an undue proportion of the burden of taxation has been imposed on the South, and an undue proportion of its proceeds appropriated to the north ...
The South as the great exporting portion of the Union has, in reality, paid vastly more than her due proportion of the revenue,". Unfair taxation drove Americans to war with Britain in 1775 and against each other in 1861. History is quite clear on this point.

Argument #5

Argument:
"Since Confederate symbols were erected and raised in
defiance of court ordered integration during the 1950's and
60', they should be removed."

This argument goes hand-in-hand with those who try to portray the 1950's, especially in the South, as a decade of hate. This approach was popular with "civil rights" groups in Georgia as well as the liberal media. The Georgia state flag, for example, was changed in 1956. Those who want the flag changed today, claim that the current state flag was established as a slap in the face of court ordered integration, even though records indicate otherwise. Integration was ordered by the courts in 1952. If Georgia legislators were angry over integration, it would not have taken them four years to change the Georgia flag. If defiance had been the reason for the flag's change, it would have
been changed the very same day as the court decision! After all, opposing integration in the 1950's was a popular position to hold, and it earned votes for politicians, both in the north and the South.

The formula for providing quality education has always been an illusive one with many variables. In the 1950's, some of those variables discussed by the members of the state legislatures in the
north and the South included teacher salaries, improved curriculum, funding for new schools and integration. Any state whose elected officials did not thoroughly debate how court ordered integration might effect quality education was done a serious disservice. Yes, debates over segregation and integration took place during the 1950's, but the timing of those debates was chosen by the civil rights movement and not by the defenders of segregation who would have
preferred that the debates never occur at all. Had the courts ordered integration 50 years earlier or 50 years later, the 1950's would have still been a decade of heritage not hate.

In the 1950's and especially the South, a nationwide preparation for the "Civil War Centennial" had begun. This event would include many states with activities spanning several years. The 1996
Olympics in Atlanta paled in comparison to the celebration surrounding the historic centennial event. President Dwight D. Eisenhower issued a special proclamation calling on all state and federal employees to take part in the festivities. The Postal Service issued a special set of stamps to commemorate the event. Knowing that many visitors coming to the South would take guided tours,
hundreds and thousands of historic markers were also placed throughout the 1950's in many states. The decade of the 1950's saw an enormous outpouring of Southern awareness that had its
beginnings in the late 1930's with the incredible success of Margaret Mitchell's novel, "Gone With The Wind" and its subsequent movie premier in Atlanta. Hailed as an overwhelming success, this classic and moving story of the South's struggle for independence and then survival, continues to serve as an inspiration to millions of Americans today.

Argument #6

Argument:
"Confederate flags are un-American and they do not
represent all Americans."

It is impossible to find a symbol of a flag that will represent everyone. The most accurate polls to date show that 87% of all Americans are not offended by Confederate symbolism. Many Americans feel that they are best represented by a Confederate flag. Actions that appease 13% of our population while disenfranchising 87% of our population, are not progressive or democratic. Nor are they very savvy from a political point of view. When You have a symbol that is as popular as the Confederate battle flag, the best solution is to simply leave it alone.

Any person who claims that Confederate flags are un-American needs a remedial course in geography. "America" as we refer to it, consists of all 50 states, not just those that exist in the north. Southerners are Americans and their flags are American flags as well. A patriotic symbol is one that represents freedom and virtue to its owner, not necessarily to others who view the symbol. If the Confederate battle flag makes you feel patriotic and proud to be a Southerner, then it is
just as patriotic to fly a Confederate flag at your home or place of business as it is to fly the flag of the United States.



The Confederate flag represented a nation that once formed, wanted to be left alone in peace. Like the United States, it went to war to defend its homelands and beliefs. Contrary to popular belief, the Civil War was not fought to end the perpetuation of slavery. It was (for the North) to restore the Union and protect the ideals of freedom our forefathers vouchsafed to us.

It was not until 1863 (when the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect) that the issue of slavery reached new heights of momentum. Even then did the majority of Union soldiers refuse to fight with or make the purpose of the war the free the blacks. A closer look at history also illustrates that the flag did not have a racist meaning at the time it was conceived. The book Black Confederate and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia by Erwin L. Jordan Jr., brings up the point that Tennessee authorized the enlistment of free blacks in 1861. These soldiers were paid the same as white soldiers, unlike their Yankee counterparts who were paid three dollars less. When the Confederate government called for the enlistment of 300,000 blacks in March 1865, the now freed men answered the call. (According to Soldiers Blue and Gray by James Robertson Jr.) The majority of Confederate soldiers were poor farmers without any slaves, so they were obviously fighting for something more. Besides, Northern businessmen of that era mistreated immigrant workers and child labor was also a common practice of the time. We cannot judge the 19th Century lifestyle with 20th Century values, and this must be taken into consideration.

Another interesting historical point is that the Confederate flag most people picture was never officially adopted by the Confederate government. Over the nation’s four year history, there were three national flags, as well as the flag which has gained such notoriety. This flag was a battle flag that soldiers in the field used to recognize and follow during the chaos of a battle. Through the smoke from gunfire, the flags would stand out as a rallying point.

As for hate groups, they have desecrated the image of the Confederate flag in the same way they have desecrated the human race. Yes, there are people who misuse the flag, but the overall meaning of the flag as a heroic symbol cannot be forgotten because some people use it with ill intent. Hate groups also fly the American flag, quote Biblical passages, and burn crosses to promote their ideas. Should the Bible, American flag, and Crucifix be eradicated because of the fact that hate groups misuse them?

Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate hero and the first Grand Wizard of the KKK renounced the Klan when it began to commit hate crimes, and called for the Klan's abolishment stating, "We are born on the same soil, breathe the same air, live on the same land, and why should we not be brothers and sisters?" and calling for the Klan’s abolishment.

Some also feel John Brown was hanged because he "simply was against slavery and took over a federal arsenal." The reason Brown stopped after taking over the Harper’s Ferry arsenal is because the military captured him. Brown’s intent was to arm the slaves and abolitionists to initiate a great rebellion.

As for the accusation of Robert E. Lee being a traitor, he was very loyal to his family and his home. People today rarely show the passion Lee and the other Confederate and Union soldiers had for their beliefs. These men were the epitome of a day when honor and courage prevailed over underhandedness and apathy. This was a far simpler and a nobler day.


I am the Confederate Flag of America.
I was born in 1861. I represented many Americans of which were many colors, contrary to modern day beliefs. I am hated by people who don’t know me or what I stood for. I was not designed as a hate object, though many people look at me this way today. I was not born to represent white sheets and shaved heads.
I was designed to support state rights and soldiers who wore gray. So don’t hate me because of what certain groups have used me for. Just remember at some point in time I represented each and every one of you, because I was an American symbol, and represented you, no matter what race you are.
I am the Confederate Flag of America.
 
I love you guys! ::sniffle:::biggrin:

I am usually the lone voice trying to correct decades of misinformation & ignorance.
 
Racist flag?? You are showing your ignorance iceman. The flag of the Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

If you want to argue the point please dont waste my time if all you bring to the table is the FUD put out by the MN public education system. My wife is from MN & I know 1st hand how pathetic it is.

Pssst... If the South did win this would be a better country today!

We are getting off topic here.
But, let me help you.


The Confederate flag has gone through a number of face lifts since its origin. During the course of the Civil War, this flag represented Southern rebellion and defiance to the United States Constitution. According to the anti-defamation league, although some Southerners see the flag simply as a symbol of Southern pride, it is often used by racists to represent white domination of blacks and Jews. The flag remains a subject of controversy because some Southern states still fly the flag from public buildings or incorporate it into their state flag’s design. Racists also use the flag as an alternative to the American flag, which they consider to be an emblem of what they describe as the Jewish-controlled government.

The Confederate Flag: Symbol of Culture or Racism The Professor

I was not educated within bounds of the state of Minnesota. I was skooled at the University of California, and New York University. I got me one of dem liberal edumadcations.

Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid.”-John Wayne
 
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