You don't HAVE to shoot

[MP3Mogul]

Not necessarily so for me. In deciding to draw you still must make a split-second decision on whether deadly force is warranted. You're saying that you can't possibly conceive of any scenario in which merely brandishing the weapon would stop the threat?

I don't believe in brandishing. As I stated, if I have made a decision to draw, the reason is to fire my weapon. I'm not going to show you my weapon... if you see it, you are already shot.

 

[Austin]

I don't believe in brandishing. As I stated, if I have made a decision to draw, the reason is to fire my weapon. I'm not going to show you my weapon... if you see it, you are already shot.

+1

(With the exception of Law Enforcement)

 

[tattedupboy]

I don't believe in brandishing. As I stated, if I have made a decision to draw, the reason is to fire my weapon. I'm not going to show you my weapon... if you see it, you are already shot.

I do believe in brandishing. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, just the sight of a gun (or in the event of a home invasion, the sound of a round being chambered in a pump shotgun) will stop a BG in his tracks.

 

[Glock Fan]

Sometimes you don't even have to show your steel.

Last time I had a run-in, a local idiot stood in front of me, telling me how he was gonna knock my head off. I had my hand on my pistol, in a pocket holster. I looked him in the eye and said, "Take your best shot." He looked at me, looked at where my hand was, and walked back to his car.

Why even bother acknowledging the other guy. He wanted to start a fight, if given a chance, I would get out of there. No reason to take a chance that it will turn ugly. If you did end up having to shoot the guy, witnesses stories, though different will probably in some way reflect you acknowledging the hostile situation and choosing to participate rather than walk away.

Use of deadly force is only warranted to STOP an attack, not prevent one or to fix something that you had a part in elevating to the "deadly force" level.



gf

 

[tattedupboy]

Why even bother acknowledging the other guy. He wanted to start a fight, if given a chance, I would get out of there. No reason to take a chance that it will turn ugly. If you did end up having to shoot the guy, witnesses stories, though different will probably in some way reflect you acknowledging the hostile situation and choosing to participate rather than walk away.

Use of deadly force is only warranted to STOP an attack, not prevent one or to fix something that you had a part in elevating to the "deadly force" level.



gf

I agree about retreating, however what if you're old or handicapped and can't run away? I think that brandishing shows that you're able to protect yourself and that attacking you would be a foolish thing to do.

 

[Slade797]

Why even bother acknowledging the other guy. He wanted to start a fight, if given a chance, I would get out of there. No reason to take a chance that it will turn ugly. If you did end up having to shoot the guy, witnesses stories, though different will probably in some way reflect you acknowledging the hostile situation and choosing to participate rather than walk away.

Use of deadly force is only warranted to STOP an attack, not prevent one or to fix something that you had a part in elevating to the "deadly force" level.

gf

No choice but to "acknowledge" him. We're standing nose to nose, he planted himself in front of me, starts screaming, my daughters are in my truck about ten feet away.... I backed him off without shooting him, and to me, that is the reason for carrying: so you do not have to fire your weapon. It's not the same reason exactly that a cop carries a gun, to apprehend and subdue. I carry a gun to avoid having to shoot, and to be able to if I have to. In the situation I described, I did not even have to show my weapon. I chose to do what I deemed necessary to stop the scenario from escalating. At that point, my goal was to stop the whole deal, which I did quite successfully, and that is the real acid test: did it work? Yup. If it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid.

While you may not believe in brandishing, it is a legitimate tool to defuse a poentially deadly situation. Cops do it every day of the world, as do private citizens. Again, the end result is the most important part. That does not always hold true for cops, who have to make every move under the microscope, and avoid rights violations and such.

 

[tattedupboy]

No choice but to "acknowledge" him. We're standing nose to nose, he planted himself in front of me, starts screaming, my daughters are in my truck about ten feet away.... I backed him off without shooting him, and to me, that is the reason for carrying: so you do not have to fire your weapon. It's not the same reason exactly that a cop carries a gun, to apprehend and subdue. I carry a gun to avoid having to shoot, and to be able to if I have to.

I like the way you think Slade797! Only fire as an absolute last resort, but if you don't have to, don't.

 

[Slade797]

I do believe in brandishing. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, just the sight of a gun (or in the event of a home invasion, the sound of a round being chambered in a pump shotgun) will stop a BG in his tracks.

+1

Brandishing a weapon is a legitimate tool, just as a rattlesnake's rattle, if somewhat less subtle.

 

[Slade797]

"While it's certainly better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it, never lose sight of the fact that the best gunfight you'll ever win is the one you avoid."

 

[Glock Fan]

No choice but to "acknowledge" him. We're standing nose to nose, he planted himself in front of me, starts screaming, my daughters are in my truck about ten feet away.... I backed him off without shooting him, and to me, that is the reason for carrying: so you do not have to fire your weapon. It's not the same reason exactly that a cop carries a gun, to apprehend and subdue. I carry a gun to avoid having to shoot, and to be able to if I have to. In the situation I described, I did not even have to show my weapon. I chose to do what I deemed necessary to stop the scenario from escalating. At that point, my goal was to stop the whole deal, which I did quite successfully, and that is the real acid test: did it work? Yup. If it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid.

While you may not believe in brandishing, it is a legitimate tool to defuse a poentially deadly situation. Cops do it every day of the world, as do private citizens. Again, the end result is the most important part. That does not always hold true for cops, who have to make every move under the microscope, and avoid rights violations and such.

Now the situation is sounding different from your initial post.

Sometimes you don't even have to show your steel.

Last time I had a run-in, a local idiot stood in front of me, telling me how he was gonna knock my head off. I had my hand on my pistol, in a pocket holster. I looked him in the eye and said, "Take your best shot." He looked at me, looked at where my hand was, and walked back to his car.

There's a clear difference between a guy who "stood in front of me" and "standing nose to nose". In my experiences, it's very rare that some "local idiot" would go from zero to "nose to nose". There's usually some dirty looks, possibly hand gestures, maybe some 4 letter words exchanged that lead up to the "nose to nose" state. What I'm saying is that if you look back on the situation, can you honestly say that you had "no choice" but to reach into your pocket with your "hand on my pistol" and have the time to come up with a snappy line like "Take your best shot"? If my child was with me, I'd make every effort to get out of there without doing anything remotely possible to escalate the situation. What if the guy did take a swing at you, then knock you to the ground. Is that something that you would want your daughters to witness?

I wasn't there, so the only version of the incident is what you've posted so far. From your two different posts, it appears that the situation was changed slightly to justify your actions. I'm not looking for an argument here, simply pointing out my observations. Keep in mind that there are many "anti" folks who visit this site and would love to use examples like this against our fellow pro 2A citizens.

I used to have a similar attitude. Through my various training experiences, research of previous court cases and talking with a great number of people, I've decided on my course of action and have beefed up my "situational awareness" when out and about. I don't necessarily run from trouble, simply do my best of steering clear of what appears to be an unsafe situation. Here in PRHI we don't have the ability to CC, so I have to make do with the tools I'm allowed to have. Keeping clear of bad situations would be my first line of defense. Deploying one of my defensive tools is always a "last resort".



gf

 

[wuzfuz]

You don't have to shoot

I have to clarify my post. I was an off-duty sheriff's deputy, and as Slade said, the best gunfight is the one you avoid. I did call a friend of mine who happened to be an on-duty Casa Grande PD officer and told him about the three idiots, and before we pulled out of the parking lot, a patrol car was spotlighting the nooks and crannies of the mall. My wife did not have a permit at that time, because Arizona had not as yet passed the CCW law, and only police and military personnel could carry concealed, in connection with their duties.

 

[Glock Fan]

I have to clarify my post. I was an off-duty sheriff's deputy, and as Slade said, the best gunfight is the one you avoid. I did call a friend of mine who happened to be an on-duty Casa Grande PD officer and told him about the three idiots, and before we pulled out of the parking lot, a patrol car was spotlighting the nooks and crannies of the mall. My wife did not have a permit at that time, because Arizona had not as yet passed the CCW law, and only police and military personnel could carry concealed, in connection with their duties.

Sounds ike this incident happend years ago. I'm glad that you had a phone in your car to call for help.



gf

 

[Austin]

I do believe in brandishing. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, just the sight of a gun (or in the event of a home invasion, the sound of a round being chambered in a pump shotgun) will stop a BG in his tracks.

I believe that you have taken the conversation out of its intended application.

I am sure that there is not a single person in here that would disagree with your statement of the pump shotgun in a home invasion.

What I was debating was in a CCL scenario.

 

[Austin]

I dont know how the self defense act reads in everyone elses state, but in Oklahoma if someone is fighting you without a weapon you cannot pull your pistol unless:
they are attempting to get your weapon
they produce a weapon
you can articulate "without a shadow of a doubt" that they planned to kill you or your wife, kids, employer, employee, etc..

If you brandish a weapon to avoid a fistfight, you are held liable in this state for criminal charges

If you already have your hand on a pistol or have it pulled already, you have hard-wired that the situation is going to be an armed response even if it lands you in prison.

If someone runs at you and starts punching you in the face, and you shoot them, it is murder and you will do time.

They really need to have F.A.T.S. (Fire Arms Training Simulator) available to the public, it is a very good learning tool.

 

[HK4U]

I dont know how the self defense act reads in everyone elses state, but in Oklahoma if someone is fighting you without a weapon you cannot pull your pistol unless:
they are attempting to get your weapon
they produce a weapon
you can articulate "without a shadow of a doubt" that they planned to kill you or your wife, kids, employer, employee, etc..

If you brandish a weapon to avoid a fistfight, you are held liable in this state for criminal charges

If you already have your hand on a pistol or have it pulled already, you have hard-wired that the situation is going to be an armed response even if it lands you in prison.

If someone runs at you and starts punching you in the face, and you shoot them, it is murder and you will do time.

They really need to have F.A.T.S. (Fire Arms Training Simulator) available to the public, it is a very good learning tool.

Thankfully it is not that way in Texas. A large man could kill a smaller person with his hands.

 

[tattedupboy]

Thankfully it is not that way in Texas. A large man could kill a smaller person with his hands.

Here in Indiana too!

 

[Austin]

Thankfully it is not that way in Texas. A large man could kill a smaller person with his hands.

Please take my word on it that I am not being argumentative with this but:

You can shoot an unarmed man to death in a Texas street fight and just say that he could have hurt you so you took his life?

What is to stop people from going around and shooting anyone that upsets them, and just saying that they were attempting to fight you? After all, there is only one story at that point.

Are you sure that this is the case HK4U??





I might have just come up with a plan to halt illegal immigration in Texas if this is the case :butcher:

 

[HK4U]

Please take my word on it that I am not being argumentative with this but:

You can shoot an unarmed man to death in a Texas street fight and just say that he could have hurt you so you took his life?

What is to stop people from going around and shooting anyone that upsets them, and just saying that they were attempting to fight you? After all, there is only one story at that point.

Are you sure that this is the case HK4U??





I might have just come up with a plan to halt illegal immigration in Texas if this is the case :butcher:

It would come down to what a reasonable person in that situation would do. If you were say a 5'6" 130 lb. man and was facing attack by a 6'8" 300 lb. hulk and you were convinced in your mind that you were facing sever injury or death then you would be with in your right. In some instances a persons hands are a deadly weapon. Of course in most cases it would be revued by the Grand Jury and the evidence looked at.

 

[tattedupboy]

I dont know how the self defense act reads in everyone elses state, but in Oklahoma if someone is fighting you without a weapon you cannot pull your pistol unless:
they are attempting to get your weapon
they produce a weapon
you can articulate "without a shadow of a doubt" that they planned to kill you or your wife, kids, employer, employee, etc..

If you brandish a weapon to avoid a fistfight, you are held liable in this state for criminal charges

If you already have your hand on a pistol or have it pulled already, you have hard-wired that the situation is going to be an armed response even if it lands you in prison.

If someone runs at you and starts punching you in the face, and you shoot them, it is murder and you will do time.

They really need to have F.A.T.S. (Fire Arms Training Simulator) available to the public, it is a very good learning tool.

I agree to the extent that someone is able to flee. If you're old, wheelchair bound, or handicapped and cannot run, and would likely get severely injured if the perp used his fists, then brandishing a weapon to avoid a fistfight is perfectly justifiable.

 

[IheartTedNugent]

I say kill em all and let god sort them out.