Johnny Dollar
New member
Again, I’m not saying don’t open carry. All I’m saying is don’t think for a second that the thugs are going to be as impressed by that fact as you are
What if someone grabs your firearm while you are Open Carrying?
- Thread starter SirTapparuni
- Start date
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Bikenut
Guest
There is a big difference between a "gun grab" and losing a gun during a struggle... and losing a gun during a struggle can happen to a concealed carrier just as easily as an open carrier.
Sir.. your refusal to research the facts to support your argument shows a lack of integrity on your part. You made the argument... you do the leg work to find the facts to support it.
And you are not paying attention... I've repeatedly said I think it is possible for an OC'd gun to be grabbed. I've even said I think it is possible for a CC'd gun to be grabbed. It is YOU who refuses to present facts to support your claims... and it is YOU who is getting all perturbed because I am expecting you to substantiate your arguments with facts that you yourself have admitted you don't have.
Without facts your argument falls into the realm of personal opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.
Now about that Freudian thing where you tried to bolster your argument with an implication that some folks OC because they are "compensating" for something. If you have to stoop so low as to use one of the favorite anti gunner insults in the hopes of shoring up your argument then not only does your argument fall flat but your credibility falls even flatter.
So... got any factual cites and/or links to prove that open carriers get their guns grabbed by anyone, including those thugs you are so sure are so bad ass that they wouldn't hesitate to grab a gun, in a number more often than a statistical rarity?
If you still have no facts, as you have admitted before, then you got................... nothing.
Edited to add:
I'm really not interested in a pissing contest with you BC ..or anyone really. What I am interested in is facts. Because this forum is not some "good ole boy" club where we can indulge in pissing on each other just for fun... this forum is open to the public at large and many people read all this stuff and if we don't give them facts then all they have to go on is BS opinions that do not reflect real world actual researchable freaking FACTS! Remember... it is the lack of actual facts that is the stock in trade of the anti gunners argument that hopes to make people too afraid to actually exercise their right to keep and bear arms.
And spreading fear doesn't do a damn thing to support the right to keep and bear arms... spreading fear actually causes folks to shy away from exercising their right to keep and bear arms because they read some fear mongering opinionated BS crap unsupported by facts and because of that.........
they are afraid to actually do it.
And when that happens the anti gunners........................ win. Please let us not help the anti gunners by dealing in unsubstantiated fear but let us defeat their arguments by always using actual researchable FACTS!
BC1
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I absolutely agree with your position on gun grabs. Said so in my prior post. Now I may be a lot of things... arrogant, opinionated, pompous and pig-headed to name a few. But lacking integrity? Absolutely not. I pride myself on honesty, integrity, ethics and morals. They're not debatable. Drilled into me by a military upbringing. And if OC is legal and you want to do it I support you. It's just not for me though. I actually prefer pocket carry as I don't like holsters too much. I know that means I carry a little less punch in my pocket but I just hate the feel of the holster.
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Anytime we carry a gun there exists the possibility that the gun will be in play during any altercation. Doesn't even have to be life threatening. As in the OP, once you're rolling around with someone the gun is in play regardless. If it spills onto the floor your adversary may get it. There are so many scenarios as to be an exercise in futility to prove any one of them.
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In searching keywords, Google returns between 18 million and 22 million websites. Sorry, I can't read them all. But you can take-up this issue with a real pro-gun expert on the subject. "Gun Digest’s Open Carry vs. Concealed," by Massad Ayoob, published July 2012, addresses your issue at length. Mas discusses cases whereby a law-abiding OC was attacked for his gun. He does state it is very uncommon. It's a pretty good book and I think you can get a downloadable version for about $2. I trained yeas ago at LFI under Mas and this subject wasn't covered. I find him to among the best sources on these subjects.
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In summary, your argument isn't with me, it's with Mas. I can only parrot what he's written. And we sure can't check all those search results.
Johnny Dollar
New member
It’s almost like there’s this sense of If you say anything negative about open carry you don’t support firearms rights and you probably kick puppies.
I choose not to open carry because I am convinced that the risks outweigh the benefits but if you want to open carry that’s your choice, knock yourself out.
Just please don't be offended if I choose not to hang out with you while you're doing it.
I choose not to open carry because I am convinced that the risks outweigh the benefits but if you want to open carry that’s your choice, knock yourself out.
Just please don't be offended if I choose not to hang out with you while you're doing it.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
Utter nonsense. When OC'ers constantly have to defend against that "Freudian" crap in a discussion that from their perspective is seeking verifiable data to support the claims being made, it has absolutely nothing to do with something "negative" having been said about OC, it has to do with horrible discussion/debate decorum and the willful lack of sourcing the assertions one makes. And even at that, their integrity cannot be questioned. Well, if you can't or won't at least attempt to validate your assertions, then there's no integrity being displayed to rely on. You don't *demand* that your integrity be recognized, you demonstrate that it is present and intact.
That said, I have no earthly idea beyond simply saying, "I choose to CC rather than OC - it's just a preference" why anyone who ostensibly supports firearms rights would say anything negative about OC. And then, even when one says they have no facts to back up their assertions, and you describe the tenor of opposition to OC as being said in a negative context, you project the negativity on the OC'ers! Avoidance is a wonderful thing if you can get away with it, but there's a ton of smart folks on this site who will recognize and call you on it when you try. Consider yourself called on it.
But you have exactly zero data to even suggest that those risks really exist, while Bikenut, Firefighterchen and several others on this site have years of first-hand experience to draw from, plus the virtual non-existence of data tending to contradict their own personal experiences.
And BC, I haven't read Mas' latest book, but if he advises against OC on the basis of the potential for guns being grabbed, how pray tell, does he explain that all uniformed beat-cops carry in the open? Are they so super-human, so well-trained, so zen-focused on weapon retention that nothing could possibly break their concentration to the point of losing their weapon the same way you hypothesize that non-law-enforcement citizens might?
This is the statement of someone who supports gun rights? Pfft.
I'm OC'ing right this minute, so feel free to follow through with that brainless quip, and don't reply as though you have any respect for others' choices. I mean, we do a fair job of "hanging out" together around here even in spite of strong opinions and differences in preferences etc. No one is forcing you to hang with us though.
Before I sign this post off, I've got one question for you JD. Do you live in Colorado Springs (or the general vicinity) by chance?
Blues
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Bikenut
Guest
Once again Blues... you have saved me the effort by responding to the foolish unsupported anti OC statements in a much more eloquent manner than I could have.
Johnny Dollar
New member
Eakley Oklahoma
golddigger14s
SFC At Fort Lewis, WA
I've OC'ed for about four years now with no issues from anybody.
The biggest thing that I take exception to is people like BC1 who attempt to tell us all what is best for us based on his gang infested inner city experience. The fact of the matter is that where I live and where I spend 99% of my daily life what few criminals there are are simply criminals of opportunity looking for the easiest and quickest wallet or purse they can grab or which car or house is easiest to burglarize. The biggest drug dealers in my area are in the high school. I refuse to make blanket statements as to what is best for everyone in their situation, especially on the internet where they might be posting from the middle of the ocean on a ship right now like I am.
So, when someone posts that they have dealt with plenty of scumbags in their life, and none of those scumbags had the slightest fear of any firearm - ok, fine. First, that is one person's claim which does not to seem to have much validity to it because what research, history and statistics we have available indicates otherwise. Second, if that is true in Chicago - is it also true in Seattle; or Newcastle, WY where the entire population works in coal mines and on oil rigs? NO. So for someone to tell me how I should carry my gun based on their experience and stating their experience as some universal fact of life, I am going to ask for some evidence to indicate that their experience is the universal fact of life that they are claiming it is.
And then there are the people who just have an all out prejudice for some reason against a person who open carries. We've heard it all - from "John Wayne", "Wild West", "Wyatt Earp", ***** size, political statement, wanting to look like a bada$$. Oh, but the people saying those things are "pro-gun" and "pro-2A", just ask them... as long as the other person carrying the gun does it to their standards. Let's leave that crap to the anti-gun crowd, we have enough problems with them.
So, when someone posts that they have dealt with plenty of scumbags in their life, and none of those scumbags had the slightest fear of any firearm - ok, fine. First, that is one person's claim which does not to seem to have much validity to it because what research, history and statistics we have available indicates otherwise. Second, if that is true in Chicago - is it also true in Seattle; or Newcastle, WY where the entire population works in coal mines and on oil rigs? NO. So for someone to tell me how I should carry my gun based on their experience and stating their experience as some universal fact of life, I am going to ask for some evidence to indicate that their experience is the universal fact of life that they are claiming it is.
And then there are the people who just have an all out prejudice for some reason against a person who open carries. We've heard it all - from "John Wayne", "Wild West", "Wyatt Earp", ***** size, political statement, wanting to look like a bada$$. Oh, but the people saying those things are "pro-gun" and "pro-2A", just ask them... as long as the other person carrying the gun does it to their standards. Let's leave that crap to the anti-gun crowd, we have enough problems with them.
Johnny Dollar
New member
I’m not sure how many ways I can say this, I don’t object to open carry. If you want to open carry go ahead. I choose not to because I believe it draws unwarranted attention and presents an avoidable risk. I choose not to hang out with you while you open carry for the same reason. Last time I looked it was my life and I get to decide things like that for myself. We only just got open carry here and I really haven’t seen all that many people doing it. I don’t think it’s going to catch on here like it has in Arizona
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Bikenut
Guest
I don't know how many ways I can say this...
When folks start presenting their personal reasons to not open carry as factual reasons for everyone to not open carry then they most certainly do object to open carry even if they say they don't.
If you, or anyone else, personally do not want to open carry I really don't care what your reasons are... you are entitled to make decisions that affect you personally.
But when folks start presenting their personal reasons to not open carry as factual reasons for everyone to not open carry... I want to see those reasons backed up by cites and/or links to actual facts.
Oh... and please do NOT presume to think that you are so special that I would want you hanging out with me when I open carry... or even when I don't.
Johnny Dollar
New member
I’m not saying that my reasons are facts they’re just my reasons. I think people should have the option I just doubt I’ll ever partake. I’m also not saying I won’t hang out with you because you’re a bad person I just don’t want the attention that rubs off. I wouldn’t walk down the street with you if you had a 8 inch pink Mohawk either
TomC51
"SigMan"
Rambo was quite literally nothing much. didn't hit anyone with a bullet in the entire first movie.If he'd have shot straight while in the cop shop, he could have left town at his leizure, with his clothes and his stuff, instead of being buck naked and depending upon LUCK to get his gear!.
The fact that I BOTHERED to get a lot of hand to hand training makes you feel bad? I saw over 300 GI's have the same chance to train that I did. Do you know how many of them even tried, a few sessions? about 15. Know how many got real ability? 5 not counting me. It cost $10 per month to get small class (3-4 of us) instruction, 6 hours a week, from a 5th Dan, when we were clearing $250 per month. That's how many people care enough to put in the work to become skilled, even under IDEAL conditions for training (ie, plenty of money and nothing else to do and a rare opportunity to train under a proven REAL badass and great instructor
Uh huh (rolling eyes)
BluesStringer
Les Brers
So I guess OC'ers can count you out when they gather to promote and advocate for gun rights, whether in your own state or across the nation, right? Don't want to draw attention to our rights, but you support our rights, huh?
Your argument is circular. I'm getting dizzy from seeing it repeated so often.
Blues
BC1
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You making fun of my hair? :sarcastic:
BC1
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Take exception? read post #83. I don't tell anyone what they should do. I only give an opinion based on my own experience. Follow it... don't follow it. It's not being imposed on anyone. My position is clearly stated in numerous posts. I personally wouldn't OC but everyone is entitled to their own choice. For the record, that's my position.
BC1
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I suppose you would have to ask Mas. Perhaps he summarizes in his book. Has anyone on this thread actually reviewed each and every gun murder to find what happened? No. So how can anyone say this doesn't happen? It's called supposition, conjecture and hyperbole. And it's happening on both sides of the argument. Until someone dissects the thousands of shootings every year, NO ONE on this site knows anything about the subject. That is, unless they depend on the honesty and accuracy of the media outlets.
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As I said before, lack of evidence of God is the lamest argument that he doesn't exist. Such holds true in most things. Some posters want proof of everything. To them I ask "do you love your kids?" Prove it. You can prove you take care of them, feed them, protect them, etc., but can never prove you love them.
Gunpacking_Running_Jewel
New member
For civilians I see no reason to open carry in public. I don't have a clue what I would do other then start yelling. If someone is taking an a gun off another person like that I think the outcome for some isn't going to be good because obviously they are not rational and mean ill intent upon others.
Johnny Dollar
New member
To get to the actual question here, if someone grabbed for my gun I’d have to take it pretty seriously wouldn’t anyone? I think the guy on THR said he swatted the urban yoot’s hand away a couple of times I think I would have cold cocked him right in the snot locker the first time out.
