What Happens to Us When We Die?

[Oldgrunt]

I have said all that needs to be said. The rest is up to you.

Jim: You will never get the last word with Greg. He isn't interested in anything except continuing the argument. It seems as if he is playing a game. For all of his professed reading, he is still not satisfied. Head knowledge, no heart knowledge.

 

[Gregmm6]

Jim: You will never get the last word with Greg. He isn't interested in anything except continuing the argument. It seems as if he is playing a game. For all of his professed reading, he is still not satisfied. Head knowledge, no heart knowledge.

Actually, I'm interested in evidence, facts, and logic.

Sorry that I'm a fan of "head knowledge."

 

[Oldgrunt]

Actually, I'm interested in evidence, facts, and logic.

Sorry that I'm a fan of "head knowledge."

Greg: You seem to be an intelligent person and may have studied the Bible intently. If so, I congratulate you and would only wish you would take to heart what you do read, without equivocation. You say you are interested in facts, evidence and logic. I find all that contained in the Bible and take it without question. God has answered your doubts already but you seem to have missed it. Isa. 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Your requirement now is to have faith in what God has said and accept Him. Hebrews 11:1, 6 explains that. As Blues said earlier, we used to have some very interesting discussions on here which everyone seemed to enjoy. Even the true atheists on here didn't go back and forth with the hostility that has become prevalent now. I hope that none of us are trying to out shine the other with who knows the most scripture or whose definition of truth is the only valid definition. We all grate on the nerves of others sometimes but, rather than trying to cast doubt on God and the Bible, we should all be trying to help another along who is seeking Him. Reading the Bible and having open discussions about it are my greatest pleasure. I have been accused of trying to be a "wise old Bible scholar" but I am not. Only old and one might say, I'm cramming for my finals! I, like many others, wasted a lot of my life without God but He waited for me so now I try to serve Him. The Bible says His word will not return void, so, every time we mention scripture, it hits home somewhere and may be the exact words needed by someone at that particular time.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Jim: You will never get the last word with Greg. He isn't interested in anything except continuing the argument. It seems as if he is playing a game. For all of his professed reading, he is still not satisfied. Head knowledge, no heart knowledge.

One should never be satisfied with the knowledge they know, always the quest for more.

Heart knowledge? You mean emotions based on how you want things to be?

 

[Oldgrunt]

One should never be satisfied with the knowledge they know, always the quest for more.

Heart knowledge? You mean emotions based on how you want things to be?

XD: This may seem rather simplistic but it is a good explanation of Head v. Heart Knowledge.





Head Knowledge vs Heart Knowledge

by Mike Mobley

“Self-salvation through good works may produce a great deal of moral behaviour in your life, but inside you are miserable. You are always comparing yourself to other people, and you are never sure you are being good enough. You cannot therefore, deal with your hideousness and self-absorption through the moral law, by trying to be a good person through an act of the will. You need a complete transformation of the very motives of your heart.” – Tim Keller, The Reason for God

When you hear about Jesus, what comes to mind? Who is Jesus to you? Depending on where you live, chances are you might have heard the Gospel before. Even now as you read this you might be saying to yourself “bla bla bla, yes I know the Gospel…move on to the next topic.” When it comes to Jesus, do you know Him in your head or in your heart?

“
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths.” – Proverbs 3:5-6

We can fill up our heads with knowledge all day long. From reading the internet, studying books, watching TV, listening to music, and having conversations with others, it’s amazing to think how much goes into our heads each day. What would it mean though for us to apply these things to our hearts? When we apply something to our heart, it becomes very real for us at that point. It drives our minds, emotions, and affections towards whatever that thing or someone is.

Heart Knowledge

Jonathan Edwards from his sermon Divine and Supernatural Light has a great illustration to make this point using honey. He says, “your mind can know honey is sweet, people can tell you it’s sweet, you’ve read books about it, etc. but if you haven’t actually tasted it, you know with your head, but not with your heart. When you actually taste it, you experience it for yourself, you know it in a full way, and you can know it in your heart.”

Knowing with your heart however, is not to be confused by being led with your emotions. That is not what I’m talking about here. You obviously still learn things with your head. For example, we can definitely have head knowledge, and not have the heart knowledge to go along with it. However, it’s impossible to know things in our hearts, but not in our heads. When it comes to the Gospel, yes, we need to learn in our heads what Jesus has done for us, but more importantly, we need to learn this in our hearts. It needs to become real to us, personally. That’s exactly what happened to me when I realized that Jesus died for me.

A good way to think about this for yourself is when you read the Bible, pray, or when you’re involved in the local body (the Church), are you doing all of this out of an obligation to God to pay Him back for something or to earn your way? Or, instead, are you doing all these things because of an overflow of gratitude of what He has done for you? Are you loving Jesus with your heart or head?

Head Knowledge

When we say things like “I know God loves me, but I hate myself” or “I know God wants me to be generous, but I just can’t do it,” we are stating truths about God from our head and using that knowledge, but there is a lack of understanding in our heart. If we knew God truly loved us, we wouldn’t hate ourselves. God’s love would be so real to us that we would see ourselves the way He sees us, through His son, as an adopted child. If we knew God truly wanted us to be generous, we would joyfully give our money, time, and possessions back to Him and anyone in need. Especially because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

So where are you in this? If you haven’t been using heart knowledge, there is no need be feel guilty or condemned (Romans 8:1). Pray to God, ask Him to search your heart, test your thoughts, guide you into understanding that what Jesus has done for you is very real and personal. Make a decision to become a follower of Christ today and to realize that you are forgiven by God through Christ.

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“Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!” – Psalm 139:23-24

Question: When it comes to Jesus, do you know Him personally, in your head or in your heart?

 

[Gregmm6]

You say you are interested in facts, evidence and logic. I find all that contained in the Bible and take it without question.

True evidence stands up to being questioned.

God has answered your doubts already but you seem to have missed it.

I studied the bible and prayed to its god for decades. It gave me no answers.

Reading the Bible and having open discussions about it are my greatest pleasure.

Then you should welcome debates and questioning of the bible, not blindly take what it says "without question."

 

[Gregmm6]

...
Jonathan Edwards from his sermon Divine and Supernatural Light has a great illustration to make this point using honey. He says, “your mind can know honey is sweet, people can tell you it’s sweet, you’ve read books about it, etc. but if you haven’t actually tasted it, you know with your head, but not with your heart. When you actually taste it, you experience it for yourself, you know it in a full way, and you can know it in your heart.”
...

So, then, "heart knowledge" is based on personal observation of evidence as the method of determining the validity of a claim. I studied the bible and prayed to its god for decades. I observed no evidence that such a god exists. That's heart knowledge for ya.

 

[Gregmm6]

There is only ONE valid WAY.... Why do you never hear budda damn or mohomad damn? Why do people use "Jesus Christ" as a curse word? Because they dont want to admit the truth... just like you.

What you're appealing to here is called "availability bias." Simply because X comes to mind (or in this case, out of the mouth) does not mean that X is true or even necessarily applicable.

The western exclamations "god damn!" or "Jesus Christ!" are not evidence of the validity of belief in the existence of a Christian god any more than the exclamations "Insha'Allah" or "Allahu Akbar" heard throughout the Arab world are evidence of the validity of belief in the existence of a Muslim god. It's cultural programming, not a desire to avoid any truth.

 

[Cowbilly32]

I studied the bible and prayed to its god for decades. I observed no evidence that such a god exists.

As I said earlier, one must have faith to believe and then comes the evidence. The only prayer that God answers from the unbeliever is the one that confesses he/she is a sinner, understands that they have offended a Holy and Righteous God and asks forgiveness with a truly repentful heart then asks Jesus to become Lord of his/her life. This is the reward of faith and belief. God has shown His existence through his creation and his Word (bible). He owes us no more and it is up to you and me to believe. So....you can read and pray all you want but until you accept what He says as truth, he is going to continue to draw you toward him through His silence.

 

[Cowbilly32]

I studied the bible and prayed to its god for decades. I observed no evidence that such a god exists.

As I said earlier, one must have faith to believe and then comes the evidence. The only prayer that God answers from the unbeliever is the one that confesses he/she is a sinner, understands that they have offended a Holy and Righteous God and asks forgiveness with a truly repentful heart then asks Jesus to become Lord of his/her life. This is the reward of faith and belief. God has shown His existence through his creation and his Word (bible). He owes us no more and it is up to you and me to believe. So....you can read and pray all you want but until you accept what He says as truth, he is going to continue to draw you toward him through His silence.

 

[Cowbilly32]

Why are my posts duplicated??

 

[Gregmm6]

As I said earlier, one must have faith to believe and then comes the evidence.

Maybe that's how it works for some. For me, however, I must have evidence that is observable and applicable to what is being claimed in order to believe that evidence. If you're comfortable with faith before evidence, good for you. I just hope that you're never selected to sit on a jury.

The only prayer that God answers from the unbeliever is the one that confesses he/she is a sinner, understands that they have offended a Holy and Righteous God and asks forgiveness with a truly repentful heart then asks Jesus to become Lord of his/her life. This is the reward of faith and belief.

Interesting that that god doesn't answer that prayer from one who is a believer.

God has shown His existence through his creation and his Word (bible).

Have you ever read your god's bible, or have you only read the modern bible that's been edited, translated, and otherwise re-worked by man numerous times in the past few thousand years?

So....you can read and pray all you want but until you accept what He says as truth, he is going to continue to draw you toward him through His silence.

1-I'm waiting for him to say ANYTHING. He had over 2 decades, not a peep.
2-Getting someone's attention through silence is a pretty dumb method. You would think that your all-knowing god could come up with a better plan.

 

[Cowbilly32]

Greg, I will just say that I once was in your shoes. I now know better. Please forget the intellect and come towards the light!

This is my last post on this thread because scripture says, "Don't answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are."

 

[Gregmm6]

I now know better. Please forget the intellect and come towards the light!

You're kidding, right?

"Don't answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are."

I guess you're right. There's no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who thinks we should forget intellect.

 

[Oldgrunt]

So, then, "heart knowledge" is based on personal observation of evidence as the method of determining the validity of a claim. I studied the bible and prayed to its god for decades. I observed no evidence that such a god exists. That's heart knowledge for ya.

Greg: As I said before, you are just playing games on here and I don't chose to play. I have all the facts I need that our God is real. I actually feel sorry for you because you are trying so hard, not to prove the Bible, but to disprove it. Quit "studying" the Bible and trying find fault with it. Sit down and actually read it, see what it says and try to find the "faith as a little child." Maybe you are trying to intellectualize God and the Bible more than have a purely emotional experience of God's forgiveness. Jesus said in the Bible, "No man can come to Me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44. I would think you have been drawn but you are fighting the call. There will not be bells, whistles, etc. once you accept Him. Only the knowledge that you have been forgiven and go through the daily struggle like the rest of us. I sincerely wish you would find that peace.

 

[Gregmm6]

Greg: As I said before, you are just playing games on here and I don't chose to play. I have all the facts I need that our God is real. I actually feel sorry for you because you are trying so hard, not to prove the Bible, but to disprove it. Quit "studying" the Bible and trying find fault with it. Sit down and actually read it, see what it says and try to find the "faith as a little child." Maybe you are trying to intellectualize God and the Bible more than have a purely emotional experience of God's forgiveness. Jesus said in the Bible, "No man can come to Me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44. I would think you have been drawn but you are fighting the call. There will not be bells, whistles, etc. once you accept Him. Only the knowledge that you have been forgiven and go through the daily struggle like the rest of us. I sincerely wish you would find that peace.

I'm not playing games any more than you are. Nor am I trying to disprove anything. Please stop with the lies, it's not constructive and detracts from respectful debate.

All that I'm saying is that both "head knowledge" and "heart knowledge" show me that there is no real evidence for any god. If you've found evidence for your god somewhere, good for you. I looked for that evidence and was open to its word for years. It never said a thing. I was open to its word as an emotional child, I got nothing. As I matured I was told that I needed to read and take to heart what's in the bible, I did so. Still, that god said nothing to me.

As a rational adult I prefer to have both emotion and intellect be part of my life. Anyone foolish enough to do away with, or downplay the reality, of either one is ensuring that they will have a fundamentally flawed perception of the world around them.

 

[XD40scinNC]

When you hear about Jesus, what comes to mind? Who is Jesus to you?

Delusion, fantasy, fable, the greatest con job ever perpetuated on mankind.

Heart Knowledge

A good way to think about this for yourself is when you read the Bible, pray, or when you’re involved in the local body (the Church), are you doing all of this out of an obligation to God to pay Him back for something or to earn your way? Or, instead, are you doing all these things because of an overflow of gratitude of what He has done for you? Are you loving Jesus with your heart or head?

Don't read it, don't pray or prey. I know many people "do church" as it is their social outlet. Without it they would just be lonely and friendless, so it does serve a purpose for some.

But how many are faux or 'fair weather' friends. Forget who posted it, but in the last couple of weeks someone posted that due to health issues they had not been able to attend church since November, and during all that time only one couple from their church had contacted him..... They were obviously disappointed and hurt by these good church going friends..... pass

Head Knowledge

When we say things like “I know God loves me, but I hate myself” or “I know God wants me to be generous, but I just can’t do it,” we are stating truths about God from our head and using that knowledge, but there is a lack of understanding in our heart.

I don't practice self-deprivation. Yes, I do tell myself I need to loose weight, get in shape, but to hate yourself because you don't feel you measure up to an impossible imaginary deity, that is self destructive.

Question: When it comes to Jesus, do you know Him personally, in your head or in your heart?

I don't really remember, but I suppose I had imaginary friends as a kid, but I out grew that a long time ago.

 

[Oldgrunt]

I'm not playing games any more than you are. Nor am I trying to disprove anything. Please stop with the lies, it's not constructive and detracts from respectful debate.

All that I'm saying is that both "head knowledge" and "heart knowledge" show me that there is no real evidence for any god. If you've found evidence for your god somewhere, good for you. I looked for that evidence and was open to its word for years. It never said a thing. I was open to its word as an emotional child, I got nothing. As I matured I was told that I needed to read and take to heart what's in the bible, I did so. Still, that god said nothing to me.

As a rational adult I prefer to have both emotion and intellect be part of my life. Anyone foolish enough to do away with, or downplay the reality, of either one is ensuring that they will have a fundamentally flawed perception of the world around them.

OK, but you are the one still looking. Not me. Hope you find what you are looking for!

 

[Saltheart Foamfollower]

You can "debate" that the earth is not round, or that water is not wet, but the truth is the earth IS round and water IS wet (in its normal state).... Matters not in the least that you debate or believe otherwise, it does NOT change the truth ...

But we can PROVE that the earth is round. We can PROVE that water is wet. However, we cannot PROVE the existance of god. That's why they call it faith. If you have faith in god,and it comforts and uplifts you, them I'm happy for you. I can't speak for others, but I don't have that faith. I DO have my beliefs, and they are personal. The existence of a "creator god" is not part of them.

Christians often point to the bible as proof of god. The bible was written by men. It is no more proof of god than the book 1984, or The Canterbury Tales. Christians will then say that the world/universe could not exist if god had not created it. I say that it could. We may not truly KNOW how the universe came to be. all we really have are theories. But that lack of certain knowledge does not prove the existence of god. All it proves is our own ignorance as a species.

That's how I see things. I don't fault christians for their beliefs. All I ask is that they not fault me for mine.

 

[Saltheart Foamfollower]

Well, yes you can if you use the commonly-accepted definition and understanding of "proof (which is not direct evidence supporting a 100% ironclad conclusion):" You look to evidence and draw inferences and conclusions, just as when a criminal jury determines guilt or innocence based on circumstantial evidence--they draw inferences and based on what they are and how strong (or weak) they are, whether the law's proof requirements for conviction have been met. The problem with God is that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of God. From that you can reasonably conclude that God doesn't exist and reserve the right to change your mind if any evidence ever shows up to support an inference that God exists.

Your example about juries and evidence is flawed. Otherwise there'd be no innocent people in jail. Evidence, even when it DOES exist, can be mis-read (mis-interpreted) causing one to draw the wrong conclusion.