Waffle House Shooting (Good Guy Wins)


Rich_S said:
There wouldn't be a target to engage if the citizen didn't get involved in a situation where his involvement was questionable at best. I carry a gun to protect my life and my family. I'm not going to risk getting killed or losing everything I own to play cops and robbers and try to stop a robbery and hold a BG at gun point.
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Ok, so you will ONLY protect YOUR family, but you would sit around and watch others die. That is a nice set of morals you have there buddy. Maybe I am crazy here but I would give my life to protect innocent people. I cannot stand by and watch evil people do evil things just because they want to. If someone were to come into my work and pull out a gun and shoot one of the people I work with just for some worthless paper money, then I might as well be dead myself. I would not be able to live with the fact someone is dead because I did not have the balls to take action when I had the means and training to.

Now agreed on the point where taking action can sometimes do more harm than good. Very crowded places or 8 to 1 odds with the gun men etc. But that is where training and common sense come into play and each situation will be different.

However to say, "I will do nothing because I am too scared of a lawsuit or getting killed that I will only protect MY family and whatever happens to others I don't care" is, to word it nicely, the words of a weak man.

However again, this is the United States of America where you can think however you wish, so have a nice day.
 

I have an aspect that I have not seen brought up before...

If a police officer has no duty to protect an individual, what makes him have a duty to protect an establishment? I keep reading, "I don't want to play police." From what I read, police are almost never there to stop the crime when it's happening. So how is stopping a crime, playing police, if that's rarely what police do? We aren't chasing down the criminals after they got away, we aren't investigating the scene and evidence after the crime, that would be playing police (or bounty hunter).

If anything, protecting yourself and others, is doing exactly opposite of what police do the majority of the time. I do not mean anything against police, we all just know they can't be everywhere all the time.
 
This reminds me of the stories of athiests finding God on the battlefield. I wouldn't be surprised that those that say they won't help wouldn't pause to ask for help when they need it.

Just saying.
 
This is an emotionally charged and complicated issue. I hear no one here saying that it is terrible to have lost one BG. Were I a betting man I would put big money on the world being a slightly better place without this BG.

Don't get me wrong I applaud this guy. Then again I applaud Evil Knievel but I am not going to jump my Harley over the Grand Canyon. Okay, I don't have a Harley, I admit, I'm imperfect. :) My point is this, just because this may have been the right thing to do that does not mean it is the best thing to do.

I would guess that the biggest problem that many here perceive is that of legal repercussions to our hero. Yes, I do see him as a hero. Unfortunately having survived the shooting he now needs to survive the legal system. This man has put everything on the line for someone that was not willing to carry and protect himself. I find it distressing that he may lose everything including his freedom. The problem I see is not with his action but with the laws. If this guy gets a good cop and a good DA then he walks and he only has to worry about a civil suit.

Some have said that we do not have all the information. That is 100% correct, it is also immaterial. We are not here to determine guilt or innocence. We, or at least I am here to learn through the exchange of ideas. Right or wrong I welcome all ideas. It is through the bantering back and forth that each of us will gain the insight as to what is right for us when the day comes that it is our turn at bat. Will I bunt or swing away? There is no answer for that. Each case is different and will have to be decided on in a split second. I believe that in some arguments both sides have good and strong arguments and that this is one of those times.

Beyond sitting and chatting what can we do to improve things? We can be good jurors. That means that when we find that the person on trial did something that we would have done or that we approve of we vote not guilty. And according to the U.S. Supreme Court we can do this if we disagree with the law. We can vote in people who will support our Constitution. We can also urge our lawmakers to repeal bad laws and to make better ones. Many States have tort protections but many do not. I believe that they could all be improved. I live in a constitutional carry State. Even here we have laws that do not fit with the Second Amendment.
 
Rich_S said:
^^^^

I was waiting for troll boy to come and tell us how I'm wrong for excercising common sense. I'd like someone to cite CC training they've taken that states an armed citizen should thrust himself into an armed robbery scenario like this one and make a citizen's arrest. Please post links to their website.
Click to expand...

I find it interesting that Sheriff Wright said the customer did exactly what CCW training teaches:

Link Removed

Sheriff Chuck Wright said the CWP training the man had came into play in this situation.

"All the witnesses said it wasn't his first reaction to grab the gun and stop shooting and he tried to make him stop," said Wright.
Wright said you are told to do all you can to avoid shooting something.
"You are trained when to shoot and when not to shoot and what you can and cant do. You learn where you can and can't carry a gun and this gentleman followed the law," said Wright.
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And, now....the rest of the story (Paul Harvey):
Deputies: Waffle House customer shoots and kills armed robber | GoUpstate.com

During a news conference Saturday night, Wright said even after the masked men entered the restaurant, the concealed weapons holder waited until the robbers began ordering customers to the floor and employees into the back - while waving a gun - to act. After pulling his .45-caliber Glock, the customer ordered the men to stay put until deputies arrived. Only after Williams pointed his Hi-Point 9mm at the man, did the customer fire, Wright said.
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It seems very clear from these articles and similar, that Sheriff Chuck Wright does not subscribe to the theory of "give them what they want and be a good witness."

Of course the dead criminal's father says, "William's father said his son has never done anything like this in the past. Saturday would have been his 19th birthday." It seems like it is always their first time, and they are always little angels until they are shot or arrested.
 
rrman12280 said:
Sheriff Chuck Wright supports the CWP holder in this case. What a great sheriff!

Link Removed
Click to expand...

And that story right there says the CWP holder did the right thing. He became involved as soon as the BG ordered them on the ground at gunpoint.
 
I like how Treo has the idea to analyze situation before diving in. There could easily be bad guy assistance waiting dormant, outside, or whatever. I have a severe hearing disability but after having been burglarized once and kidnapped with vehicle another time, I am not afraid to use my firearm in self defense of myself or others. I would never intentionally play hero, but I refuse to be a coward. I will almost always stand up for someone else if they are being overpowered and situation is getting out of control. At the same time if its not possible without killing innocents behind bad guy or nowhere to draw fire away from crowd then it would be illogical to immediately get involved. Police should understand if you had no safe option to open fire. What if he grabbed a human shield and just opened fire at you an your family or other families? I do think trying to slip out back door doesn't look good. Cops can surround quickly and if you are a plain clothed armed citizen sneaking through uniformed chefs that will stand out to witnesses and possible make you get called in for questioning such as to why you are sneaking around. "Was he a bad guy escaping after failure?" will be a first thought to quite a few. Besides, Texas says you can't leave seen of crime. I do like that excerpt posted for another state from statutes that says a law enforcement officer may summons your help, that's pretty cool. Here in Texas they leave that optional, but I believe they prefer you don't get involved, too many chances for distractions or confusion. But again that depends on situation. At least this was what was taught in my classes a few years ago. I agree with that all deaths are directly the fault of bad guy unless it was your bullet that hits innocent. We do not want to fuel the anti-gun folks. The classes I have attended say you should not use to just hold at gunpoint (although I hear about it plenty and it turns out fine). They say if you draw weapon at all it's because you are in fear of your life or others and are immediately stopping the threat. If they see you and drop the weapon or flee then you don't shoot because we aren't cops. Also I never root on the death of loss of life.
 
Rich_S you should change your name to Dumb__S

It is bed wetting cowards like you that have helped turn this once great country into a third world cesspool where thugs and punks rule over law abiding citizens.
Thank God there are still some of us who still have backbones and are willing to do what is right.
I live about a mile from this Waffle House and go there regularly. I wish I had been there that night. Maybe the second thug would have met the same fate!! Now he will tie up the court system for the next couple of years and then taxpayers will support the punk for the next 20 or so years unless of course YOU are the judge who turns this piece of trash back out on the streets to try it again. Maybe you will be in the next restaurant he tries to rob.
 
If a criminal puts himself in this position, then he should be prepared to meet resistance from the people he is threatening. Maybe he was just robbing the place, or maybe he was planning on shooting a few people on the way out the door with the money. Who knows? Why take the chance and wait until he actually fires his gun before stepping in? By then, it's too late.
 
The video said there were 10 in the store.... There was actually 11, one of the customers ran out the back, right Rich_s? :sarcastic:
 
Only if necessary

Being a ccp I would think if my family was there or the place was crowded .I wouldnt put others in jeopardy. But if I was close to the situation in a uncrowded place I would get involved.
 
Rich_S said:
^^^^

I was waiting for troll boy to come and tell us how I'm wrong for excercising common sense. I'd like someone to cite CC training they've taken that states an armed citizen should thrust himself into an armed robbery scenario like this one and make a citizen's arrest. Please post links to their website.
Click to expand...

The dead slimeball had a gun and was threatening law abiding citizens. I don't know of any state that forbids you from defending yourself or others. Everyone has to decide for themselves as to whether they are willing to defend others or not. I would hope I would.

Actually, I think the best course of action (without considering the myriad of circumstances that we don't know about from this brief description of the situation) would be to simply shoot any and all of the armed robbers.
 
Sheriff Chuck Wright is going to be on Armed American Radio shortly. Sorry the short notice. I just found out myself. Go to Armedamericanradio.org
 
Caribou said:
This is an emotionally charged and complicated issue. I hear no one here saying that it is terrible to have lost one BG. Were I a betting man I would put big money on the world being a slightly better place without this BG.

Don't get me wrong I applaud this guy. Then again I applaud Evil Knievel but I am not going to jump my Harley over the Grand Canyon. Okay, I don't have a Harley, I admit, I'm imperfect. :) My point is this, just because this may have been the right thing to do that does not mean it is the best thing to do.

I would guess that the biggest problem that many here perceive is that of legal repercussions to our hero. Yes, I do see him as a hero. Unfortunately having survived the shooting he now needs to survive the legal system. This man has put everything on the line for someone that was not willing to carry and protect himself. I find it distressing that he may lose everything including his freedom. The problem I see is not with his action but with the laws. If this guy gets a good cop and a good DA then he walks and he only has to worry about a civil suit.

Some have said that we do not have all the information. That is 100% correct, it is also immaterial. We are not here to determine guilt or innocence. We, or at least I am here to learn through the exchange of ideas. Right or wrong I welcome all ideas. It is through the bantering back and forth that each of us will gain the insight as to what is right for us when the day comes that it is our turn at bat. Will I bunt or swing away? There is no answer for that. Each case is different and will have to be decided on in a split second. I believe that in some arguments both sides have good and strong arguments and that this is one of those times.

Beyond sitting and chatting what can we do to improve things? We can be good jurors. That means that when we find that the person on trial did something that we would have done or that we approve of we vote not guilty. And according to the U.S. Supreme Court we can do this if we disagree with the law. We can vote in people who will support our Constitution. We can also urge our lawmakers to repeal bad laws and to make better ones. Many States have tort protections but many do not. I believe that they could all be improved. I live in a constitutional carry State. Even here we have laws that do not fit with the Second Amendment.
Click to expand...

If we don't want to live in a trashy area, we all have to be willing to help pick up the trash.
 
It's as simple as this google (your state) laws on lethal force keep your ass covered of corse most of it is up to you weather or not the situation is in need of you to draw to protect the third person for instance I would only draw if the victim freezes due to the gun or knife being waved in their face at that time I feel the perp may try to hurt the victim due to them being frozen in fear because let's face it that person is in fear for there life and may have PTS due to the robbery I know my brother suffered from PTS after his work was robbed lucky he remained calm in the situation and told the BG who was holding him at knife point against the register he needed to let him move so he could open the drawer of corse the store figured oh we are in a little town we dont need to record but it turn out this little town was the meth lab capital of the state till our state boys cracked down on the disgusting scum bags manufacturing that **** and now there are only a few people here who are addicted to the drug and everybody who has half a brain knows meth users will do anything to get their drugs sorry that's just me ranting about these scum bags but my other brother had been in the back room if he had his ccw Some of you are trying to say he shouldn't intervene I know well that's different they are family everyone has family's even scum bag criminals as does the victim who's life may have been saved who's to say something couldn't have made the perp jump and pull the trigger taking the victims life in this case I would have to do the same and some may argue well that person will still have PTS but it's better than knowing the guy got away most do due to wear masks and premeditation of the crime
 
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