To Chamber or Not to Chamber?

[Mike (Michigan)]

This is my first exposure to the Israeli Instinctive method. The Israeli's warefare successes are noteworthy but:

Why is the right elbow pointed "up" during the draw?

Why is the gun presented sideways before engaging the target?

Why is the gun brought back to a sideways position after firing ceases?

 

[marionandjohn]

This is my first exposure to the Israeli Instinctive method. The Israeli's warefare successes are noteworthy but:

Why is the right elbow pointed "up" during the draw?

Why is the gun presented sideways before engaging the target?

Why is the gun brought back to a sideways position after firing ceases?

My first exposure also but I have a theory type answer for your questions 2 and 3

I believe it to be easier to see your target with the gun angled if not your entire target then atleast the portion of your target below your weapon ie. thier hands, as for going sideways after fire ceases I believe that is to ensure the chamber is empty (just a view point for you and your bystander, camera or instructor. If you train like that then that is what youll do instinctivly. I might be completly wrong but we shall see what others think. The elbow thing might just be some weird stuff they do or they (he) might find that to be the comfortable way to make a quick draw because you cant say hes not fast.

 

[kodeman]

Alwyas loaded and chambered

1 in the pipe and 15 in the mag.. otherwise its a hammer... what happens if you cant rack the slide? Strong side somehow injured?

 

[cplefty]

My dad and I disagree on this subject, but I always carry a fully loaded gun.

 

[wolvesrunfree]

what is the point of cc if you are going to let the bad guy get the jump on you. that slight time difference could cost you plenty!

 

[2beararms]

I guess I cannot imagine having time to rack the slide if a firearm must be used in self-defense. Although here in Florida there is not duty to retreat law anymore, retreat still IS the first choice in EVERY confrontation if it is available. This is SELF-DEFENSE not military tactictal!

Self defense with a firearm is when you are confronted with a situation with no other way out. This generally means the assailant is within you immediate area (7-10 feet), is generally armed and is already threatening your safety ... and you are going to pull a gun AND RACK IN A ROUND?

If you have the time to do that, you probably have the time to RUN! If you think a situation is GOING to get dangerous and you pick up you gun and rack a round to be ready rather than getting the f*** out of there, then you are using very poor judgement and training and violating the law in many areas.

YES, if your choice is carry with the chamber empty or don't carry the gun, then by all means carry empty, but think really hard if you are actually PREPARED to DEFEND yourself, or if you are just playing macho gun totin' dude?

 

[Socket]

my goal is only to be a macho carrying a gun guy...

I like how some post are just so plainly cut and dry, you must carry a gun with a round in the chamber, if you don't you are carrying a hammer and are a complete idiot because you don't know how to chamber a round and your are "f*****". I am pretty sure with the practice I have and the muscle memory of drawing my gun and chambering, is faster than most that just draw, or reach down to draw from an ankle holster or where you have to un-tuck your over shirt for a compression shirt holster. So with some of these replies saying that I am dead if I don't chamber one is completely false.

I have an honest question, has there been a situation where somebody who carries a CCW, actually had to react to a situations where they shot an assailant? I feel we are there to keep peace by being prepared to act. Now has there been a situation where somebody was killed or injured because "it wasn't loaded" and accidentally discharged a round?

Maybe I am being too cautious or too safe, but I would rather have the split second to chamber, then somebody to be injured or killed. This is my comfort level right now. With 4 daughters under the age of 10, why take that chance? I could be unconscious from an auto accident, or a reaction to a prescription drug, slip and fall on the ice, these are more likely to happen then when/if I need to draw my gun. The only way I would be dead before I could draw and chamber is if the assailant had me in his scopes.

Please don't refer to me as an idiot that's just carrying a hammer and is automatically dead because it will take me 5 minutes to chamber a round. But as a concerned CCW holder that is taking my constitutional right with understanding the consequences that come along with it.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

I like how some post are just so plainly cut and dry, you must carry a gun with a round in the chamber, if you don't you are carrying a hammer and are a complete idiot because you don't know how to chamber a round and your are "f*****".

Doesn't pertain to my comments, so ok..

I am pretty sure with the practice I have and the muscle memory of drawing my gun and chambering, is faster than most that just draw, or reach down to draw from an ankle holster or where you have to un-tuck your over shirt for a compression shirt holster.

Doubtful, at best.

So with some of these replies saying that I am dead if I don't chamber one is completely false.

That's one version of it.

I have an honest question, has there been a situation where somebody who carries a CCW, actually had to react to a situations where they shot an assailant?

CCW's have shot many times.

I feel we are there to keep peace by being prepared to act.

No, that is the job of police and security officers. I'm not around to keep the peace, i'm carrying to protect myself, and my family.

Now has there been a situation where somebody was killed or injured because "it wasn't loaded" and accidentally discharged a round?

You can't accidentally discharge a round that isn't loaded so no... There have been however at least one account where someone likely died because the gun wasn't loaded..

LiveLeak.com - Jewelery Store Shooting in Agra

Maybe I am being too cautious or too safe, but I would rather have the split second to chamber, then somebody to be injured or killed. This is my comfort level right now.

So you are faster than any of us at a draw, but your comfort level is well below ours...great logic.

With 4 daughters under the age of 10, why take that chance?

You asked about carrying with one in the chamber not storing.

I could be unconscious from an auto accident, or a reaction to a prescription drug, slip and fall on the ice, these are more likely to happen then when/if I need to draw my gun.

If you feel this way, then why carry at all?

The only way I would be dead before I could draw and chamber is if the assailant had me in his scopes.

Talk about false bravado.

Please don't refer to me as an idiot that's just carrying a hammer and is automatically dead because it will take me 5 minutes to chamber a round.

I never did, but OK.

But as a concerned CCW holder that is taking my constitutional right with understanding the consequences that come along with it.

Why'd you ask a question you already had the answer to? You seem a little unsure of yourself and your choices...

 

[melloyello]

My preference is to always have one chambered. For me there is a trade off between safety and preparedness. I like to justify with additional gun safeties and actions. That would include the house, auto/MC, and on my person. The only unchambered weapons are the ones in the safe, cabinet or being maintained.

I have four children, (one now out of the house and married), have all been taught gun safety and how to shoot since an early age ~3-5 years old. Most have chosen not to shoot guns (maybe because of the cleaning, maintenance and ammo), but knifes, bows and arrows are more their choices, now. My wife and I have even discussed getting my kids CWP when they go to college/leave the house. Have to look into changing local state laws from 21 to 18.

 

[marionandjohn]

Now has there been a situation where somebody was killed or injured because "it wasn't loaded" and accidentally discharged a round?

Simply put No. One I have yet seen a weapon that was laying on the ground discharge by its self. It might be my good luck but I have never never seen a weapon accidentally dicharge only ignorant or neglangent discharges. I must ask the question here since we all have heard of someone or know someone that has "accidently" shot themself or someone else while cleaning a weapon, HOW? everyone here knows what the first 3 steps to cleaning a weapon are and if you dont then you should not be handling it.

My preference is to always have one chambered. For me there is a trade off between safety and preparedness. I like to justify with additional gun safeties and actions. That would include the house, auto/MC, and on my person. The only unchambered weapons are the ones in the safe, cabinet or being maintained.

I have four children, (one now out of the house and married), have all been taught gun safety and how to shoot since an early age ~3-5 years old. Most have chosen not to shoot guns (maybe because of the cleaning, maintenance and ammo), but knifes, bows and arrows are more their choices, now. My wife and I have even discussed getting my kids CWP when they go to college/leave the house. Have to look into changing local state laws from 21 to 18.

Good I thought I was the only "nut" left out there that believed in teaching children at a young age about firearms. I must ask you how many of those shootings where the kid found the dads gun and was showing it to a buddy has your kids taken part in vs the kids who were tought to "fear guns and guns are bad" were involved in.

 

[Cocked _and_Locked]

You can't accidentally discharge a round that isn't loaded so no... There have been however at least one account where someone likely died because the gun wasn't loaded..

And quite literally THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of cases across the country and around the world since the Chinese first propelled a projectile with black powder, where innocent men, women and children HAVE been killed because of the plethora of potentially limitless circumstances combined with a round in the chamber when either the weapon malfunctioned or the trigger got accidentally pulled.

It was probably their fault anyway, but they are still DEAD.

Hey, let's just stay in denial and preach fully loaded, always under all circumstances for everybody - no compromise. :sarcastic:

 

[Socket]

time to get off this post. There a those who love to be the "jerk", then there are those that really want to give some credible advice to someone who is going to need to compromise something. the uncomfortable feeling of having a loaded gun around children vs. a quick response to protect.

If I were a cop or somebody who is at a constant threat level, I agree 100% with having one in the chamber, which very well may be the case for those that feel strongly about it. But for us average guys where the threat level is low. Low enough that I have never seen one instance where it deemed appropriate to draw and possibly shoot. So from my perspective chambering a round is the only risk or threat.

I could guess that when a threat increases its around alcohol, which of course is when we are not lawfully allowed to carry.

I appreciate all replies, with the good and the bad. Thanks for all of those who shared ideas and opinions and even those with insults and rude attitudes. :yu:

 

[Mountaingoat61]

First of all, depends on your comfort level. BUT if you're properly trained and very familiar with your carry weapon, and have a holster that prevents anything coming in contact with the trigger, there's not reason not to have it chambered. My greatest concern would be finding myself in a desperate situation and having to take the extra couple of seconds to rack my semi-auto. Could be the diff between walking away and being carried. I carry a S&W Sigma 40 cal which is a double action every shot and has a fairly firm pull, so I'm 100% confident in carrying with a round in the chamber.

 

[Aresye]

time to get off this post. There a those who love to be the "jerk", then there are those that really want to give some credible advice to someone who is going to need to compromise something

Don't take it personally. We're both fairly new posters, so most of the people on this board have no idea who you are, what kind of personality you have, and what kind of training you have. There's also a lot of people who say things online they would never say to a person's face. Just a personality type. Problem is when you combine that kind of personality, with the fact that it's almost impossible to pick up sarcasm and wit online. We really on body language to really understand a person's expression, and what they're saying. For the internet...well...we have smiley's, and that's about it. How many times have you read someone's post, but didn't understand the reason behind a certain smiley? You likely are interpreting their post in the wrong way.

I was hesitant at first to carry in Condition 1 (round in chamber), but it depends on a lot of factors. I carry a Sig P239, and when holstered, the trigger is completely covered, and there's no risk of anything snagging the trigger. Even if so, there's the 12.12lbs of pressure required to pull the trigger in double action. With the internal safety mechanism in many Sigs, it's pretty much impossible to have an accidental discharge. Note I said accidental, and not negligent. If you carry a DA/SA pistol, it would be very unwise to carry in SA. Proper grip while drawing is another thing. I've seen some of my coworkers draw the Sig P226 while their finger is touching the trigger guard, which they've occasionally slipped, having their finger rest on the trigger while still drawing. Thank god for DA, for if it was SA, some of these guys would have shot their own foot, or someone else. When I draw, my finger is straight along the slide, as far from the trigger as I can.

Basically, as long as you exercise safe gun handling, there's very little risk to carrying in Condition 1. If your gun's not on you, it should be unloaded in Condition 4, locked securely in a hard case, with ammunition stored in a different location. There's nothing that upsets me more than somebody carelessly handling a weapon, loaded, or not. These are very basic gun safety precautions we've learned since Boy Scouts.

 

[CaptAmerica]

Wow.... Being the new guy I just read this thread and all I can say is.... wow.

Ok a few opinions that don't agree, I can live with that.

Please forgive me in advance for going off on a rant here, but I read so many things that I wanted to respond to.

As for me; I ALWAYS carry with one in the chamber. I ALWAYS store it with one in the chamber. Let me tell you why:
First of all I believe in, teach, and practice the 4 rules of gun safety. That starts with EVERY GUN IS LOADED (ALL THE TIME). If that is true and I know that, then why would I carry an UNloaded gun (not chambered) because from a safety point of view I will treat it as loaded anyway. So much for all these arguments over safety IMHO.
And yes before you ask, I do have kids in my house, but more on that in a bit.
The only time I use the decocker is when I am going into the post office or school and I need to unholster my gun while sitting in my truck so I can lock it away. Many because there is limited room to keep it pointed safely.

When people ask me why I carry a gun, I always reply be asking them why they wear a seat belt? I ask if they have ever been in an accident. Yet we all wear a seat belt because IF we are in an accident it can save our life. Even though I have never been shot at, attacked, etc, I carry a gun because IF I am (or my family is) that gun could save my life.
As for carrying with one in the pipe I will still use the seat belt analogy. Having a seatbelt is great, but I don't want to try to buckle it while I am in the wreck. I want to know that seat belt is there ready to do it's job while I think about other things like trying to avoid the wreck or minimize the impact.

I read on of you never lets your kids see your guns, and you keep it locked up... why??

My 11 year old has been shooting all her life (so has the 6 yr old and the 8 yr old btw) I teach my kids gun safety from day one. I come home and lay my gun on the nightstand when I am not wearing it. yes with one in the chamber. Because safety is in the head not in the hands. And a locked gun is even more useless than an unloaded gun. My kids know the power a gun has. they respect it. When we go shooting they know it is never a toy. To this day they NEVER set foot on the range without telling me the 4 rules of gun safety first.
In fact I had one of those red rubber training guns one time and my daughter was about 8, I picked up that piece of rubber to show someone what at 1911 looked and felt like and in so doing I 'tagged' my daughters foot. At which point she spent 30 mins ripping into me for pointing a 'gun' at her unsafely. (It made me very proud to see how much she understood gun safety).
I will tell you she is the first on on my case to put on or lock up my guns if company is coming over. Please don't think I am so careless as to leave them laying around my house all the time.

One final thing I would like to point out, the question was asked how many times has an unchambered gun shot somebody? I can tell you at least once. Long story a short a child in my town found a .22 in the couch while visiting his father. the child brought it to the mother and she freaked out. she took the gun and started trying to unload it while screaming wildly. Not knowing anything about guns, she pulled the slide back thus chambering a round. She then began beating on the gun to try to figure out how to unload it. Sadly her finger was on the trigger and the gun was pointing at her 2 year old son... the gun discharged and the boy was shot in the head (Thank God he survived).

These are my choices, I am not saying you are wrong if you don't agree with me but for my self I always want my seat belt on.
Accidents happen when you have no clue what you are doing.

 

[Socket]

Thanks for the advice everybody

The most convincing idea was the "seatbelt". It's there, but you don't buckle it during an accident. Safe preparedness sounds like the way to go.

Nobody in my family has ever owned a single gun until I purchased my Glock 26 eight months ago. So I never grew up around them and until 8 months ago never really shot a handgun. I was in the Air Force and qualified as Marksmen in my first time at the range. So it always was in the back of my mind that I could shoot decent. I started shooting blue rock about 2 years ago and have done it maybe 5 times.

When our horrible President was elected and being politically active, I came to realize that my constitutional right of owing a gun was threatened, I made my purchase. Other factors contributed, increase of live shooters in public places. I always asked myself, "if I was carrying, I could have saved those people's lives".

My daughters are growing up and I have a huge paternal instinct to obviously protect them. My 2 oldest daughters know about my gun and the safety that is involved with dealing with it. I want them to be able to recognize what it is so if they come across a friend's Dad's gun, what to do. They know my gun only goes in 2 places: on me, or in safe.

All of your posts have been very helpful in helping me understand the necessity of carrying one in the chamber. In the back of mind, I know this is correct, but still struggle with the safety reassurance that it won't go off accidentally even when we are 100% intent on handling it safe. Still it's human error that leads to accidents.

We all want to be perfect and have the confidence that we are, but that never stopped a 7th grade friend of mine from being shot in the head when he found a handgun at a friends house. So, maybe some of you will understand my hesitation in chambering a round.

Theory never has consequences and faith is only real when there is a risk involved. So I risk an accidental misfire, but have faith that I am 100% safe.

 

[CaptAmerica]

The most convincing idea was the "seatbelt". It's there, but you don't buckle it during an accident. Safe preparedness sounds like the way to go.

Glad that helped. Honestly I was almost done with this forum, but some good PM's and then your post made me realize we are the good guys, and we are in this world together...

As for feeling safe, I totally understand. When I lay my gun down at night I make sure the barrel is pointing in a safe direction. You just have to understand the responsibility you have when you choose to arm your self, and that includes safety.
I have three daughters, and I am very honest with them. I learned along time ago that the more we try to hide something the more they will want to find it. I made Guns a part of our life, and at the same time I made safety a part of our life. My 11 year old loves to horse around and play fight with me, and she always stops when we are playing and says "dad you need to take your gun off so you don't have an accident or something while I kick your butt"
To me that tells me she gets it.
That is what works for me, I am no one to tell you what is best for your house.

 

[Cocked _and_Locked]

That is what works for me, I am no one to tell you what is best for your house.

Ah, the voice of reason. So refreshingly rare around here, it seems.....

 

[CaptAmerica]

Ah, the voice of reason. So refreshingly rare around here, it seems.....

Don't waste your time, a compliment from you holds little meaning. After reading through this forum I have very little respect for you right now.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

don't waste your time, a compliment from you holds little meaning. After reading through this forum i have very little respect for you right now.

lmao! That must have hurt.