Texas Man Refuses To Instruct Muslims in Gun Handling

[Speedbump]

Wow, lots of opinions and angles here. Then there is the legal side of the whole thing. More over regulation.

Actually I thought his ad was funny and I put it up on my Forum in the jokes section. I never really took it that seriously.

 

[DemocratGunOwner]

It's not so clear cut as you might think. The best explanation I could find online was at LegalZoom.com:

The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone Because of Appearance, Odor, or Attire? | LegalZoom

Let's say I were to deny firearms instruction to a 20-something Muslim man, based on that he fit the profile of a typical terrorist or hijacker, and perhaps was behaving in a way that made me nervous or fearful.

If he were to take me to court, my attorney could argue that I was using my judgement as an instructor, deeming that the prospective student was unsuitable to carry a firearm, and that I didn't feel comfortable accepting him into my class. He could also argue that I was acting in the best interest of national security, etc. (I'm sure an attorney could word it better.)

I believe there is some case law where flight schools denied service to young foreign-born Muslim men for that same purpose, subsequent to the events of 9/11/01.

And that's where it gets tricky. The 9/11 hijackers looked like perfectly normal Americans of South/West Asian descent, they acted somewhat normally. They weren't wearing hijabs, head wrappings, etc, etc. And if the instructor has non-religious reasons for denying them, fine. As your link mentions, he can deny them because they're wearing blue or red as "gang colors". He could even deny them based on "strange behavior". But pure religious belief is not sufficient.

But you can't use "Muslims are terrorists, so I'm barring Muslims", because that's religious discrimination. There are somewhere between 1.8 million and 7 million Muslims in the United States (depending on whose estimate you believe.) Now, we don't have 1.8-7 million terrorist attacks going on, so obviously they're not all terrorists.

And if we're using the "well, SOME are terrorists, therefore I can't trust ANY of them," you'd have to exclude all former members of the military, because Tim McVeigh was former military. You'd have to exclude all university professors because Ted Kaczynski was a university professor. You'd have to exclude Christians, since Scott Roeder was a Christian.

 

[CathyInBlue]

If someone revealed they were Muslim...I would think twice about whether I wanted to instruct them.

For those of us old enough to recall (though in my case just barely)...there were a large number of Muslims who claimed conscientious objector status when called upon to serve in Vietnam. Islam claims to be a religion of peace.

However...when a Jihad is called...all bets are off.

So it seems to me that a Muslim who is NOT pursuing jihad would likely NOT wish to own or carry a firearm. While it is possible that a Muslim would be involved in sporting or hunting, one never knows. Muslims pursuing jihad essentially have divine carte blanche from Allah to lie, cheat, steal, kill, whatever it takes to win.

Excellent analysis. And the license to lie isn't merely a general phenomenon, it's a named practice called taqiyya. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Taqiyya In the pursuit of their religion's tenets, a Muslim is given free reign to lie about anything and everything in order to achieve the goals of Islam. Where a Christian is taught never to deny Christ, a Muslim can deny Allah, deny Mohammad, and even deny being a Muslim at all. It would be as simple as breathing for a devout Muslim to go before this instructor and when told that he can't take the course if he's a Muslim to simply state, and back up with any actions required or desired to "prove" he's not a Muslim (Mmmm, bacon wrapped pork chops!), all the while with militant jihad in his heart.

 

[kenknd]

I believe that the instructor has aright to accept or refuse anybody he so desires to instruct. I would hope that he would use better judgement than just religion, skin color, or ethnicity, but then agai this is th USA and he has the right to HIS opinions and or ideals.

 

[kenknd]

VERY interesting points!!! I couldn't agree more. EVERYONE is entitled to a fair shake no matter what. Like my Dad used to say, "Nobody's an idiot until they prove me wrong."

 

[Glock Fan]

The best reply so far. My question is, just the fact that not every Muslim is a bad Muslim who want to kill us, how do you know you are refusing someone who is really hell bent on protecting himself and his family? If you had listened to one of Glenn Beck's story about this Muslim guy who was pulped by some radical Muslims for siding with the Americans, the Star of David carved on his back, if this guy has a gun (and helped to be allowed to do so) he would have been able to protect himself and his family.

I actually have instructed Middle Eastern students. This was after 9/11. These people didn't act weird or say anything that would indicate that they had any shady motives for wanting to learn how to shoot a firearm. I firmly believe that I should treat all students fairly and equally. The very basis of our country was formed from people who moved here from other nations. I would boot a military service member from my class if they violated my safety rules and refused to follow my instructions. I came pretty close a couple of times. Had to put the rest of the class on break while I had a 20 minute b1tch session with them. One thing I do not tolerate in any of my classes is unsafe behavior. Don't care who you are and how much "experience" you've had with firearms. There are only a few NRA firearms safety rules. They aren't that difficult to follow. Choose to violate them, and you're going to be asked to leave my class.

Several years back, I was teaching a firearms safety class an one of the assistant instructors made a comment about a Middle Eastern man and his family. There were a half dozen of them taking the course. All had traditional Muslim names and the females were dressed in traditional clothing. The comment made was something to the effect of "we should do background checks on these guys". I noticed earlier that the man briefly left the class at the beginning when I announced that live ammo is not allowed in the classroom (NRA policy). Didn't think much of it at the time until the man approached us during a break shortly after the assistant made the comment. The man produced his LE credentials (he was a law enforcement officer for the US government). He was very professional, but firm in talking to the assistant instructor and informed him that not everything is as it seems. Turns out that the man travels a lot for business and his home was recently burglarized. He wanted his wife and adult children to be safe, so signed everyone up for the class.

The experience with the Federal LEO in my class is one of the many reasons why I don't judge the folks taking my class. I watch behavior and attitude more than anything when conducting my classes. A bad attitude that goes uncorrected will result in an invitation to leave the class.

 

[B2Tall]

Sounds like a whole lot of gun control going on......based on nothing more than somebody's religious beliefs. Crime, violence, and insanity have no boundries, be they religious, racial, ethnic, or economic.

Would you deny instruction to a black man because of the crime rate amongst his "group"??

Almost all serial/spree killers in this country are white males with at least a nominal christian background. Hmmm....don't want to teach the next Ted Bundy or Charles Whitman how to shoot....

That Italian guy over there....he might be Mafia. Don't teach him anything!

Wow! If we keep going at this rate they'll be no nobody left "qualified" to carry! Sounds like quite a few folks on this site who're highly pro-2A (to say the least) are very quick to deny other citizens that right based on nothing more than hype and hysteria.

 

[B2Tall]

Excellent analysis. And the license to lie isn't merely a general phenomenon, it's a named practice called taqiyya. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Taqiyya In the pursuit of their religion's tenets, a Muslim is given free reign to lie about anything and everything in order to achieve the goals of Islam. Where a Christian is taught never to deny Christ, a Muslim can deny Allah, deny Mohammad, and even deny being a Muslim at all. It would be as simple as breathing for a devout Muslim to go before this instructor and when told that he can't take the course if he's a Muslim to simply state, and back up with any actions required or desired to "prove" he's not a Muslim (Mmmm, bacon wrapped pork chops!), all the while with militant jihad in his heart.

Exellent point but let's take it further.......would someone planning some sort of terrorist act really be concerned with obtaining a permit?? Crimininals don't obey the law, remember?? And if for some reason they DID feel the need to get a permit, why woud they even tell you they're muslim?? There are hundreds of thousands of Christians of arab descent spread through the Middle East. It would be rather easy for a potential terrorist to have a cover story and say they came to this country to escape the Christian persecution in whatever country they came from. Let's face it....a few days of bible instruction would give them more knowledge of Christianity than 90% of the population in this country.

We're talking about a few hours of very basic firearm instruction....not a highly technical 6 month course on how to fly an airplane. People can teach themsleves how to use a gun, or have one of their more experienced "co-conspirators" instruct them - all at the local firing range. I highly doubt if they're going to bother going through an instructor if they have jihad on their mind.

 

[Phillip Gain]

A few further thoughts on this issue...

Excellent analysis. And the license to lie isn't merely a general phenomenon, it's a named practice called taqiyya. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Taqiyya In the pursuit of their religion's tenets, a Muslim is given free reign to lie about anything and everything in order to achieve the goals of Islam. Where a Christian is taught never to deny Christ, a Muslim can deny Allah, deny Mohammad, and even deny being a Muslim at all. It would be as simple as breathing for a devout Muslim to go before this instructor and when told that he can't take the course if he's a Muslim to simply state, and back up with any actions required or desired to "prove" he's not a Muslim (Mmmm, bacon wrapped pork chops!), all the while with militant jihad in his heart.

I think I might have had a "duh" moment. You're right. Someone who is Muslim and pursuing a Jihad, and looking for instruction in how to use a firearm:

a) would not likely seek it from an NRA certified instructor
b) when doing so, would not reveal himself/herself as even being Muslim.

And while an instructor cannot likely be held liable for someone's criminal actions - "How can one tell what is his intent?" An instructor could potentially be held liable in a civil action regarding the student's negligence later with a firearm - "Why did you not properly instruct and evaluate your student?"

But good points brought out, that it is reasonable for an instructor to deny instruction based on:

a) unsafe and irresponsible behavior from the student
b) obvious or stated criminal intent

 

[Grognard Gunny]

I couldn't even understand what this redneck was rambling on about

Ah! The automatic "redneck" tag. (How "sophisticated and posh" of you.) If you are attempting to disclaim "name calling" in general, it is usually wisest not to indulge in the practice yourself.

Just sayin'.

GG

 

[wooddoctor]

Do and say what the Libtards do......I felt really really uncomfortable with his mannerism and I was looking out for the safety of others. He even called me an infidel. Would you be concerned if a Muslim called you an infidel?

 

[BC1]

TX? Teaching license? What happened to this gun-friendly state?

I teach who I want and when I want. In NYS we don't need the blessing of the state to be a recognized instructor. NRA cert is enough. This is what happens when government interferes. If I teach someone who then gets a permit and he's involved ion a shooting there is every chance I'll be named in any civil suit. The student must pass MY smell test to register.

 

[B2Tall]

TX? Teaching license? What happened to this gun-friendly state?

I teach who I want and when I want. In NYS we don't need the blessing of the state to be a recognized instructor. NRA cert is enough. This is what happens when government interferes. If I teach someone who then gets a permit and he's involved ion a shooting there is every chance I'll be named in any civil suit. The student must pass MY smell test to register.

If they were Muslim would you automatically reject them??

 

[Tucker's Mom]

TX? Teaching license? What happened to this gun-friendly state?

I teach who I want and when I want. In NYS we don't need the blessing of the state to be a recognized instructor. NRA cert is enough. This is what happens when government interferes. If I teach someone who then gets a permit and he's involved ion a shooting there is every chance I'll be named in any civil suit. The student must pass MY smell test to register.

"Smell test"??? Now that is funny...I love it!! When my husband is not with me, I wonder if I get a smell test too ?? LOL You see, I have olive skin and I look more on the Asian side than my hispanic side of the family even though I was born in a Western civilization. You know how many times I had been discriminated because of my skin colour? It used to hurt but it doesn't anymore, I've learned to live with it. Justmy thoughts. Please do not misunderstand my statement here...I really think your phrase "smell test" is funny. I will remember that....

 

[DemocratGunOwner]

I felt really really uncomfortable with his mannerism and I was looking out for the safety of others. He even called me an infidel. Would you be concerned if a Muslim called you an infidel?

If I was an instructor, and a student called me "infidel" (or any word that implies the student is treating me as someone who needs punishment, such as "heretic", "heathen", or even "treasonous", "traitor", or similar non-religious words,) in an obviously-serious way, I would be concerned and refuse service.

But the vast majority of Muslims don't go around calling Christians "infidel" as a matter of course. It's the actions that are the worrying part. If the action is taken to call someone "infidel", yes, that's worrying.

 

[BC1]

"Smell test"??? Now that is funny...I love it!! When my husband is not with me, I wonder if I get a smell test too ?? LOL You see, I have olive skin and I look more on the Asian side than my hispanic side of the family even though I was born in a Western civilization. You know how many times I had been discriminated because of my skin colour? It used to hurt but it doesn't anymore, I've learned to live with it. Justmy thoughts. Please do not misunderstand my statement here...I really think your phrase "smell test" is funny. I will remember that....

No offense intended. "Smell test"s akin to saying it doesn't pass the muster.

If they were Muslim would you automatically reject them??

No. I wouldn't know what religion they are and I don't ask. The point is that instructors assume a lot of responsibility so they should be allowed to refuse a class to anyone who they don't feel comfortable about. No one has a "right" to take my instruction.

 

[Providence Ranch]

I applaud the guy!

Despite the legal battles he may face, this guy took a stand for his country and for his personal rights as a citizen and private business owner. The founders of the Constitution never intended for a free person to be forced into doing business with anyone by government edict. And that's the way it should remain. The point of this discussion is really not whether what he did was legal. It's whether or not it SHOULD be. This guy chose to keep his country safer by refusing to train the enemy. My hat is off to him, and my prayers are with him. I also pray that those of you who have heartache over his decision will wake up before its truly too late. God bless America!

 

[gvaldeg1]

Generally, I,m a "live and let live" kinda guy, however, the Constitution is not a suicide pact and therefore it seems reasonable to me to not arm or teach the use of arms to likely future enemies. I would cancel all visa's and disallow future visa's to muslims, and let them complain about their own countries and leave mine alone. And no acceptance of sharia or any other foreign law in American courts.
Call it narrow minded if you like, but I'm an American nationalist, first, last, and in the middle. BTW, I married a foreign national, and she is an American citizen now.We both believe that legal residents should stay here and illegals should be deported.

I agree completely with fudo!

 

[gvaldeg1]

Despite the legal battles he may face, this guy took a stand for his country and for his personal rights as a citizen and private business owner. The founders of the Constitution never intended for a free person to be forced into doing business with anyone by government edict. And that's the way it should remain. The point of this discussion is really not whether what he did was legal. It's whether or not it SHOULD be. This guy chose to keep his country safer by refusing to train the enemy. My hat is off to him, and my prayers are with him. I also pray that those of you who have heartache over his decision will wake up before its truly too late. God bless America!

Couldn't have said it better myself!!

 

[unclewayne17]

What if the people that trained the Muslims to fly had refused to teach them? There would be Thousands of people still alive and this would be a different place. They have the right to ask for instruction and he has the same right to just say NO.