Signs FBI getting wimpier?

[Stengun]

Howdy,

Hey look, another ignorant post by Paul.



Anyway, Paul does correctly reference the 1986 FBI Miami shootout as the birthplace of the .40 S&W, as I'm sure we all know. First came the 10mm but, too many agents couldn't handle the caliber effectively so the .40 S&W was developed as a compromise. I personally don't care for .40 and really see no good reason to own one. However, it is a well known fact that modern 9x19 defensive ammo is exceptional and routinely competes directly with its larger counterparts, despite the ignorant comments made by our resident buffoon up there, Sten. Now, before we move any further I'd like to point to the '86 shootout again and say that the debate over handgun caliber that rages on to this day is completely missing the mark at why/how that gunfight went so badly. The absolute deciding factor was that the FBI brought handguns to a rifle fight. The agents scored hits, yes, they even got at least one hit in the form of .357 magnum at about 6 feet but the suspects kept fighting regardless. So, back to the rifle thing... the Mini-14 provided stand-off capability to the criminals, it not only allowed them to very effectively reach through the vehicles and shatter forearms but it also prevented the FBI agents from doing one of the most important things in a street gunfight.... close the distance. The bad guys took numerous hits from .38Spl, 9x19, .357 magnum and 00 buckshot but continued to fight long enough to nearly wipe out the agents and drive away. Know though, both suspects had non-survivable wounds and would have died rather shortly even w/o the final fvck you rounds pumped into them point blank.

Okay, so again... the mark has been constantly missed when examining the '86 shootout, even though in after action reports and interviews you would be hard-pressed to find any of the surviving agents specifically comment on how they wish they had a different handgun... they wished they had entered the gunfight differently, hadn't made so many small mistakes and had some "patrol rifles" but, the caliber of their handguns wasn't the deciding factor. The lesson to be learned from that shootout, never bring a handgun to a rifle fight. IMO, 10mm and .40 S&W were solutions with no problem (much like 300 AAC but, I digress). Perhaps the argument could be made, sorta, that the old .40 did what modern 9x19 does now... So, with that line of thinking it makes a lot of sense for LE departments to keep or switch back to the 9x19.

Gunfights come down to luck, tactics and training... everything else that people dream up as the reason why somebody won or lost is compensation in the wrong area. I trust 9x19 with my life and I in no way feel under-gunned, I'd put what I got up against almost anybody in a gunfight. As I like to ask people, "Do you gun, bro?"... if not, you should start.

Look, more idiotic responses from the Forum Idiot.

No one commented on rifle vs. handgun retard.

I comment was in response to the OPs title.

Sure a lot of women and girly men prefer a 9mm but I for one will pass and after the '86 Miami Shootout, which happened while I was on AD and was carrying a handgun for a living and BEFORE girlybob was born, so did the FBI.

Like I posted earlier, at lest 1 9mm was used in the Shootout with disappointing results and as a result the FBI ruled out the 9mm an NEVER gave it a second glance.

Hey girlybob! Just how many people have you shot with a 9mm that in your words "I trust 9x19 with my life and I in no way feel under-gunned, "?

Just curious retard.

girlybob said "I'd put what I got up against almost anybody in a gunfight. As I like to ask people, "Do you gun, bro?"... if not, you should start.

More words of wisdom from a Keyboard Kommando!!

What a retarded idiot! Challenging people to a gunfight on an internet gun forum.

What a retard! I would block him but I would miss out on his "Words of Wisdom!"

girlybob, grow up.

Paul

P.S. What's the deal with "bro'"? Are you like a 13yo wannabe gang banger or something?

 

[bofh]

FYI: A 2011 video showing shooting Federal HST 9mm through windshield:

Also, the Federal HST comparison that is used to select law enforcement ammunition for duty use:

Link Removed

You can shoot 9mm through a barrier and meet the LE specs. There are similar comparisons for other brands, such as Link Removed.

 

[Pitt County Pride]

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Agent Mirales end the 1986 Miami shootout with several well-placed rounds of 158-grain .38 Special +p lead hollowpoints? I think in those days it was referred to as the Metro round. Fact is, there's no such thing as a "magic bullet." If I were in the military and could only use ball ammunition, then I'd want a .45 too. Fortunately, I have a choice and choose a 124-grain JHP 9mm +P+. With it and proper bullet placement, I am adequately armed, no doubt. Personally, I prefer carrying 3 17-round mags over 3 8-round mags. In 36 years of law enforcement, I've been shot at, stabbed, attacked with an ax, push down a flight of stairs and kicked in the face by a guy wearing cowboy boots, but I've never been admitted overnight at a hospital. Praise the Lord!

 

[gunnerbob]

Howdy,



Look, more idiotic responses from the Forum Idiot.

No one commented on rifle vs. handgun retard.

I comment was in response to the OPs title.

Sure a lot of women and girly men prefer a 9mm but I for one will pass and after the '86 Miami Shootout, which happened while I was on AD and was carrying a handgun for a living and BEFORE girlybob was born, so did the FBI.

Like I posted earlier, at lest 1 9mm was used in the Shootout with disappointing results and as a result the FBI ruled out the 9mm an NEVER gave it a second glance.

Hey girlybob! Just how many people have you shot with a 9mm that in your words "I trust 9x19 with my life and I in no way feel under-gunned, "?

Just curious retard.

girlybob said "I'd put what I got up against almost anybody in a gunfight. As I like to ask people, "Do you gun, bro?"... if not, you should start.

More words of wisdom from a Keyboard Kommando!!

What a retarded idiot! Challenging people to a gunfight on an internet gun forum.

What a retard! I would block him but I would miss out on his "Words of Wisdom!"

girlybob, grow up.

Paul

P.S. What's the deal with "bro'"? Are you like a 13yo wannabe gang banger or something?

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[S&W645]

FYI: A 2011 video showing shooting Federal HST 9mm through windshield:

Also, the Federal HST comparison that is used to select law enforcement ammunition for duty use:

Link Removed

You can shoot 9mm through a barrier and meet the LE specs. There are similar comparisons for other brands, such as Link Removed.

One very important bit of data is left out of that chart though. And that is the energy of the round at say 25yds. The 9mm in the first type only delivers 330ft/lb of force. while the .45ACP +P will deliver 440ft/lb of force at the same distance. And that is a whole lot of difference in stopping power. And to those who think my comparison of types is unfair to the 9mm, here's some more. P9HST4 which is a +P 147gr round only has 340ft/lb at the 25 yd mark. Again the +P .45 wins. So how about Federal's plain Jane .45ACP HST round? 389 ft/lb at 25 yd and 347 way out at 100 yd mark. So their own test show that for stopping power, the .45ACP wins if the shooter can handle it. And the .45ACP round is easier to handle than a .40S&W which is a +P power level round.

PS: the P9HST3 round on the third line did do a little better but still only came in at 355 lb/ft at 25 yards. So the facts are there, the 9mm does not hit with the same force as the.45ACP and that counts.

 

[bofh]

Correct, energy and momentum are different (~30%) between both rounds at any distance, which is why .45 ACP is better than 9mm. That still doesn't mean that 9mm is inadequate and .45 ACP the ultimate man stopper, as some claim.

 

[zeke4351]

All of the gun forum experts will turn back flips if the Army just happens to go with a full size all metal 10mm. There are many loads available and the gun will hold 15 rounds. Link Removed

 

[bofh]

All of the gun forum experts will turn back flips if the Army just happens to go with a full size all metal 10mm. There are many loads available and the gun will hold 15 rounds.

Link Removed

+1. However, the only 10mm that holds 15 rounds in the magazine I know of is the Glock 20. Do you happen to know of any metal-frame 10mm with that capacity? Most are 1911-style single-stacks with a 9-round magazine capacity. Not that there is anything wrong with the Glock 20.

 

[longslide10]

+1. However, the only 10mm that holds 15 rounds in the magazine I know of is the Glock 20. Do you happen to know of any metal-frame 10mm with that capacity? Most are 1911-style single-stacks with a 9-round magazine capacity. Not that there is anything wrong with the Glock 20.

Probably the closest we'll get to an all metal 10mm is this 2011 double stack 10 (14+1) from STI. Link Removed

 

[longslide10]

All of the gun forum experts will turn back flips if the Army just happens to go with a full size all metal 10mm. There are many loads available and the gun will hold 15 rounds. Link Removed

I don't know why it was never considered...oh wait yes I do, women can't handle the recoil. It is flatter shooting than the 45 and 40 and has more downrange knockdown power of all of them, well at least the most commonly used calibers--the 9, 40, 45, 357 sig. Personally I think the 10mm is the best all around semi-auto handgun cartridge developed to this day.

 

[zeke4351]

+1. However, the only 10mm that holds 15 rounds in the magazine I know of is the Glock 20. Do you happen to know of any metal-frame 10mm with that capacity? Most are 1911-style single-stacks with a 9-round magazine capacity. Not that there is anything wrong with the Glock 20.

Link Removed
I just happen to have one.Link Removed