Signs FBI getting wimpier?

[longslide10]

US Army Wants Out. FBI Wants In On 9mm Pistols




For the fourth time in recent years the US Army is considering dropping the M9 Beretta and the 9mm NATO round it chambers in favor of a pistol that shoots a larger caliber, harder hitting round. The Federal Bureau of Investigation on the other hand have just published a pre-solicitation notice for 9mm pistols. The Bureau are looking for a compact, a full size and a training/simulation semi-automatic pistol chambered in 9mm Luger/Parabellum. A full solicitation noticed is expected to during Q1 2015.

The notice (SYNOPSIS-OSCU-DSU1501) is below …

This is a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial “OFF THE SHELF” semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI. This notice is issued solely for informational and planning purposes only.

The following types of pistols, chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge, may be requested for testing and evaluation purposes under a future solicitation:

Class One Pistol: barrel length between 3.75″ and 4.25″; with a minimum magazine capacity of 13 rounds.

Class Two Pistol: barrel length between 4.5″ and 5.5″; with a minimum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.

Class One Training Pistol (Red Handle): deactivated with full articulation, red receiver and slide, night sights.

Class One “Man Marking” (a.k.a., “Simunitions”) pistol: blue slide or slide with blue inserts.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation anticipates the release of a solicitation during FY2015/Q1; distributed solely through the General Services Administration (GSA) Federal Business Opportunities (FBO) Website (www.fedbizopps.gov). This notice does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP) and should not be construed to as a commitment of any kind by the Government to issue a formal solicitation or ultimately award a contract. Responses to this notice are not offers and cannot be accepted by the Government to form a binding contract. Any costs incurred by interested parties will NOT be reimbursed. It is the responsibility of any interested party to monitor this site for additional information pertaining to this notice.

What is especially interesting is that the FBI are only interested in pistols that fire SAAMI specification 9mm cartridges. This infers they are not interested in adopting +P+ overpressure ammunition which exceeds SAAMI maximum chamber pressures.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation currently issues chambered in .40 S&W, which famously collaborated on the development of, to their Special Agents and .45 ACP pistols to the FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) and regional SWAT teams.


- See more at: US Army Wants Out. FBI Wants In On 9mm Pistols - The Firearm Blog

 

[Pitt County Pride]

There's nothing wimpy about a modern 9mm Parabellum round...

 

[Red Dragon]

My department just switched to 9mm from 40 S&W. Nothing wrong with 9mm.

 

[longslide10]

I wanted to see what sentiments would come about here. Maybe since the advancement in powders and bullets the 9mm has improved but I don't see it as having the best stopping power. That is why military SF's are switching back to the 45. FBI was interested in the 10mm but it was too much for the women and smaller guys so they opted for the 40 short and weak now they are going to yet a smaller caliber. FBI hiring more women for the field?

 

[Nightmare45]

I will keep my 1911.

 

[S&W645]

I wanted to see what sentiments would come about here. Maybe since the advancement in powders and bullets the 9mm has improved but I don't see it as having the best stopping power. That is why military SF's are switching back to the 45. FBI was interested in the 10mm but it was too much for the women and smaller guys so they opted for the 40 short and weak now they are going to yet a smaller caliber. FBI hiring more women for the field?

Choice between spec 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP, I'll stick with .45ACP.

 

[bofh]

It is not clear yet if the military is switching at all. If it is switching, it will still use FMJ ammo. On the other hand, law enforcement agencies are considering moving from .40 S&W JHP to 9mm or .45 ACP JHP. There is a big difference between FMJ and JHP and there is a big difference in the use of handguns by the military and law enforcement agencies (such as primary vs. secondary firearm and liability for collateral damage).

 

[BigSlick]

I'll stay with my .40's. In a few years they will start the process all over again with some new wonder round.

 

[longslide10]

I'll stay with my .40's. In a few years they will start the process all over again with some new wonder round.

They say the military is at least 50 years ahead of where we think they are in technology so do they have the phaser gun yet is what I wonder.

 

[longslide10]

My department just switched to 9mm from 40 S&W. Nothing wrong with 9mm.

Other than the fact that there have been numerous BG's hit multiple times and didn't go down right away. Happened/Happens a lot in Afghan and Iraq CQB too. That is why Special Forces are switching back to the 45. I really don't have anything against the 9mm it is just not my preferred cartridge but am curious why the FBI is going that route.

 

[Stengun]

Howdy,

During the infamous '86 Miami Shootout, IIRC ( too lazy to look it up ) at lest one person was armed with a 9mm and either GGs or BGs, or both were shot with a 9mm with very disappointing results.

That's why the 9mm was NEVER considered by the FBI when it started looking for a new handgun round.

I know, I know.......... Nowadays the 9mm has these "Wonder Bullets" that perform better because they expand better and penetrate better........well, they do as long as they don't impact a bone, or the HP gets clogged with clothing, or you have to shoot through a car door, or a windshield, or a..........oh, never mind.

Yeah, a 9mm beats throwing rocks, but just barely.

Paul

 

[Red Dragon]

Other than the fact that there have been numerous BG's hit multiple times and didn't go down right away. Happened/Happens a lot in Afghan and Iraq CQB too. That is why Special Forces are switching back to the 45. I really don't have anything against the 9mm it is just not my preferred cartridge but am curious why the FBI is going that route.

And there are a lot of stories about people getting shot with .40s, .45s, .223s, and .308s without going down. Shot placement is more important than caliber.

 

[longslide10]

And there are a lot of stories about people getting shot with .40s, .45s, .223s, and .308s without going down. Shot placement is more important than caliber.

Absolutely. A couple well placed shots with a 22 is better than misses with a 45. I guess I am biased against the nine probably due to some old articles or what have you. I don't think I would carry one but I would like to have one for target shooting.

 

[S&W645]

Absolutely. A couple well placed shots with a 22 is better than misses with a 45. I guess I am biased against the nine probably due to some old articles or what have you. I don't think I would carry one but I would like to have one for target shooting.

I have a few 9s but still carry the 1911 in .45ACP mostly. 9s include the 59, 659, and 5906 from S&W and P-226, P-228 from Sig.

 

[Firefighterchen]

And there are a lot of stories about people getting shot with .40s, .45s, .223s, and .308s without going down. Shot placement is more important than caliber.

This is spot on. Handguns are poor man "stoppers" to begin with.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[BluesStringer]

Other than the fact that there have been numerous BG's hit multiple times and didn't go down right away. Happened/Happens a lot in Afghan and Iraq CQB too. That is why Special Forces are switching back to the 45. I really don't have anything against the 9mm it is just not my preferred cartridge but am curious why the FBI is going that route.

While I am sure that SFs leadership are conducting tests on both ballistics and the weapons that deliver them nearly continuously, each individual operator gets to pick whatever handgun he wants. Many carry .40's and .45's, but it's their choice.

My best friend's son is on his fourth tour in Afghanistan. His main MOS is air traffic control with a bunch of sub-specialty training under his belt as well. Whenever my friend and I get into a discussion about caliber, stopping power etc., the first words out of his mouth if he disagrees with something I said is, "Yeah, well Forrest carried that during his first tour and went to this during his second, and now he's carrying something else, and he tells me everything he learns in real gun battles, so you just don't know! You do realize Forrest can carry whatever he wants, right?" LOL I laugh at him and say OK, hit that acorn right below this one" and I shoot the acorn off a tree with my .45. He tries, sometimes he even hits the one I pointed at, sometimes not, but at least I get him off the "You-don't-know-squat-because-my-Special-Forces-kid-says-so!" meme for a few minutes. LOL

Blues

 

[gunnerbob]

Hey look, another ignorant post by Paul.

Howdy,

During the infamous '86 Miami Shootout, IIRC ( too lazy to look it up ) at lest one person was armed with a 9mm and either GGs or BGs, or both were shot with a 9mm with very disappointing results.

That's why the 9mm was NEVER considered by the FBI when it started looking for a new handgun round.

I know, I know.......... Nowadays the 9mm has these "Wonder Bullets" that perform better because they expand better and penetrate better........well, they do as long as they don't impact a bone, or the HP gets clogged with clothing, or you have to shoot through a car door, or a windshield, or a..........oh, never mind.

Yeah, a 9mm beats throwing rocks, but just barely.

Paul

Anyway, Paul does correctly reference the 1986 FBI Miami shootout as the birthplace of the .40 S&W, as I'm sure we all know. First came the 10mm but, too many agents couldn't handle the caliber effectively so the .40 S&W was developed as a compromise. I personally don't care for .40 and really see no good reason to own one. However, it is a well known fact that modern 9x19 defensive ammo is exceptional and routinely competes directly with its larger counterparts, despite the ignorant comments made by our resident buffoon up there, Sten. Now, before we move any further I'd like to point to the '86 shootout again and say that the debate over handgun caliber that rages on to this day is completely missing the mark at why/how that gunfight went so badly. The absolute deciding factor was that the FBI brought handguns to a rifle fight. The agents scored hits, yes, they even got at least one hit in the form of .357 magnum at about 6 feet but the suspects kept fighting regardless. So, back to the rifle thing... the Mini-14 provided stand-off capability to the criminals, it not only allowed them to very effectively reach through the vehicles and shatter forearms but it also prevented the FBI agents from doing one of the most important things in a street gunfight.... close the distance. The bad guys took numerous hits from .38Spl, 9x19, .357 magnum and 00 buckshot but continued to fight long enough to nearly wipe out the agents and drive away. Know though, both suspects had non-survivable wounds and would have died rather shortly even w/o the final fvck you rounds pumped into them point blank.

Okay, so again... the mark has been constantly missed when examining the '86 shootout, even though in after action reports and interviews you would be hard-pressed to find any of the surviving agents specifically comment on how they wish they had a different handgun... they wished they had entered the gunfight differently, hadn't made so many small mistakes and had some "patrol rifles" but, the caliber of their handguns wasn't the deciding factor. The lesson to be learned from that shootout, never bring a handgun to a rifle fight. IMO, 10mm and .40 S&W were solutions with no problem (much like 300 AAC but, I digress). Perhaps the argument could be made, sorta, that the old .40 did what modern 9x19 does now... So, with that line of thinking it makes a lot of sense for LE departments to keep or switch back to the 9x19.

Gunfights come down to luck, tactics and training... everything else that people dream up as the reason why somebody won or lost is compensation in the wrong area. I trust my life with 9x19 and I in no way feel under-gunned, I'd put what I got up against almost anybody in a gunfight. As I like to ask people, "Do you gun, bro?"... if not, you should start.

 

[Ringo]

A 9mm may expand but a .45 never shrinks. :biggrin:

 

[gunnerbob]

A 9mm may expand but a .45 never shrinks. :biggrin:

Maybe in the Twilight Zone... :biggrin: IMO, .45acp will remain a prominent cartridge for the remainder of the century. Y'know, until we get those Plasma rifles up and running.

 

[bofh]

Bare gel tests:

• Federal HST LE 9mm 147 grain expands to .850 inches and penetrates 12.0 inches
• Federal HST LE .40S&W 180 grain expands to .960 inches and penetrates 12.0 inches (0.11 inches wider than 9mm)
• Federal HST LE .45ACP 230 grain expands to .980 inches and penetrates 12.0 inches (0.13 inches wider than 9mm)

Denim-covered gel tests:

• Federal HST LE 9mm 147 grain expands to .660 inches and penetrates 12.0 inches
• Federal HST LE .40S&W 180 grain expands to .700 inches and penetrates 13.5 inches (0.04 inches wider and 1.5 inches deeper than 9mm)
• Federal HST LE .45ACP 230 grain expands to .800 inches and penetrates 13.0 inches (0.14 inches wider and 1.0 inches deeper than 9mm)

All of these rounds pass the tests for law enforcement agencies (i.e. enough penetration in bare gel and denim-, metal-, drywall-, plywood-, and glass-covered gel). Same goes for Speer Gold Dot LE and Hornady Critical Duty LE. Pick your choice, but don't claim that the .45ACP with its 0.14 inches wider expansion and 1.0 inches deeper penetration in denim-covered gel makes a significant difference over the 9mm in a self-defensive shooting.