Sheepdog Training Tour ~Featuring Lt. Col. David Grossman~

[Treo]

It's also been my observation that the folks that get the maddest when I say this stuff are the ones that most need to hear it

I really can't add another word to the above it get's proved everytime this topic cmes up.

 

[BluesStringer]

It's also been my observation that the folks that get the maddest when I say this stuff are the ones that most need to hear it.

I really can't add another word to the above it get's proved everytime this topic cmes up.

And your so-called "evidence" that I "need" to hear a single word from you is what? That I help out when I can? That I carry blankets and first aid gear in my vehicle? That I have carried for over 30 years and never had to brandish or fire my weapon in defense of self or others? I mean, if I self-identify as being of the "sheepdog" mindset, and your belief that sheepdogs are just waiting to get into gunfights and stick their noses where they don't belong, doesn't my record of non-violence while carrying a loaded weapon over more than 30 years decimate the notion that I "need" to hear your jaded views about this topic?

And what evidence do you have that I'm one of the "maddest" ones replying to you? Because I laughed at your idiocy? Because I called your obsessive/compulsive knee-jerk reactions to trigger-words and names exactly what it appears to be from here?

How nice for you that you only need your own words to validate, well, your own words. Screw the evidence, if you say people "need" to hear what you have to say, then you feel justified in judging that "need" as being "proved" every time you say it, unrelated to any honest, objective reading of anything said in reply to your intentionally insulting blather. You have proven that you don't have the ability to discuss things honestly, Treo. Rather than being "mad" at you for what you say, I pity you. You take the word cynic to never-before-heard-of degrees of magnification when it comes to this, as well as other, topics. How pitiful it must be to feel so superior to other human beings only to have people demonstrate in public how utterly weak and insubstantial your "arguments" are.

Lest you are tempted to show your lack of a grasp on reality again, I seriously doubt anyone "needs" to hear your pontifications again in reply to this post. I know I don't.

Blues

 

[Treo]

Throw a rock at a pack of dogs and the one you hit barks the loudest

 

[BluesStringer]

Ring a bell and watch Pavlov's dog start drooling.

Gee, this is fun, ain't it though?

 

[Bikenut]

Enough of this crap about sheepdogs already!!!

Read what Lt. Col. Grossman actually said about it here:

Link Removed

By the way.... here is an except:

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.”

Bold added by me for emphasis...

Sooooo... a "sheepdog" is one who "confronts the wolf". Well.. I will "confront the wolf" if the wolf is trying to bite my ass or bite the ass of someone I love or care about. I MIGHT!!! even step in and help a stranger who's ass is being bitten by a wolf... then again... I might not because whether or not I insert myself into someone else's problems depends on the totality of the circumstances. And whether other folks like it or not I still believe that those who expect others to jump in and save them can go get their own damn gun!

But I AM NOT! a "sheepdog" because I'm just an ordinary citizen who happens to carry a gun and I DO NOT fit this definition!!! (another excerpt from Lt. Col. Grossman's article):

"But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path."

And anyone who fancies themselves to be a "warrior" had better have the training and the skills of a for real "warrior" and not just be some ordinary guy with a carry permit and delusions of "sheepdog" grandeur because if they are just another Walter Mitty they will eventually play the superhero part and shortly after play the part of Bubba's new ............ "friend".

Didn't say there aren't times when stepping in would not be a good idea and could be justified... just saying this whole sanctimonious "sheepdog" thing is complete and total ............. bull manure.

So enough of this crap about being some kind of superhero "sheepdog" already!!!!

 

[Treo]

"But what if you have a capacity for violence,

Check

and a deep love for your fellow citizens?

I am a NO-GO at this station

Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path."

I've been a hero and I do not impress me.

 

[Treo]

Ring a bell and watch Pavlov's dog start drooling.

Gee, this is fun, ain't it though?

Would it damage your self image to know I can't read your posts with a straight face?

 

[Treo]

Enough of this crap about sheepdogs already!!!

Sooooo... a "sheepdog" is one who "confronts the wolf". Well.. I will "confront the wolf" if the wolf is trying to bite my ass or bite the ass of someone I love or care about. I MIGHT!!! even step in and help a stranger who's ass is being bitten by a wolf... then again... I might not because whether or not I insert myself into someone else's problems depends on the totality of the circumstances. And whether other folks like it or not I still believe that those who expect others to jump in and save them can go get their own damn gun!

But I AM NOT! a "sheepdog" because I'm just an ordinary citizen who happens to carry a gun and I DO NOT fit this definition!!! (another excerpt from Lt. Col. Grossman's article):

"But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path."

And anyone who fancies themselves to be a "warrior" had better have the training and the skills of a for real "warrior" and not just be some ordinary guy with a carry permit and delusions of "sheepdog" grandeur because if they are just another Walter Mitty they will eventually play the superhero part and shortly after play the part of Bubba's new ............ "friend".

Didn't say there aren't times when stepping in would not be a good idea and could be justified... just saying this whole sanctimonious "sheepdog" thing is complete and total ............. bull manure.So enough of this crap about being some kind of superhero "sheepdog" already!!!!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Bikenut]

-snip-

I've been a hero and I do not impress me.

Been there myself.. and my morning dump still stinks up the house.... much to the displeasure of my loving wife who knows about the 'hero' stuff but still doesn't like the stench.

 

[Treo]

The basic premise that undergirds Grossman’s work is the concept that human beings have an innate moral imperative against killing another human being and that this imperative must be overcome before a human being can be an effective soldier and in all seriousness I don’t believe it. All you have to do is read Genesis 4:8 to know that human beings don’t have to be taught how to kill.

In my entire military career I have never met a soldier who faced any real moral crisis over shooting at the enemy. I say “shooting at” instead of “killing” because I was always taught that you’re better off to wound an enemy than to kill him because a wounded enemy required 2 more enemies to care for him where a dead enemy required no care. I never met a soldier that enjoyed killing the enemy but I never saw one that hesitated when circumstances required it. It was your duty and you did it and life went on.

So when I find Grossman’s foundation faulty I have to question the house he built on it. I also have to note that LTC David Grossman’s theories were never any part of any leadership course I ever took, they were never any part of any pre deployment briefing or Preparation for Overseas Movement (POM) that I ever went through. And I also note that he isn’t taught at PLDC, BNCOC, ANCOC or the Sergeants Major Academy. If anything I think 10 years of war have shifted the Army’s view of his theories and so he’s peddling his wares to civilians now.

 

[Treo]

Been there myself.. and my morning dump still stinks up the house.... much to the displeasure of my loving wife who knows about the 'hero' stuff but still doesn't like the stench.

We need to get you some Pine Sol baby

BTW my wife knows I'm a hero too, she ain't impressed either

 

[BluesStringer]

Enough of this crap about sheepdogs already!!!

Umm...That's what the thread's about. Why on Earth would you try to stifle discussion of it?

Really Bikenut, when I made my first post about "anti-sheepdogs descending on this thread blah blah blah" I had no idea that you were one of them. It was not directed at you at all, and even after all the exclamation points and calling my opinions "crap" etc., it still isn't.

I said already that my understanding of the concept did not come from Grossman. I learned of it being his original idea about a year or so ago in a thread similar to this one, only it was posted from the anti-sheepdog perspective. It was incongruous to me because, like I said already, the source I heard it from presents it as much less about gun-play than it is about just plain ol' selflessness and helpfulness. I get what you're saying now that I've seen a little of what Grossman has said on the subject, but as Treo rightly pointed out (!!!!) in another anti-sheepdog thread, his concept was meant for true warriors, soldiers, Marines, cops etc., not permission-slip holders.

I also said that this has already been explained to the most vociferous, judgmental, cranky, holier-than-thou anti-sheepdog on this site before. He kept saying that being a sheepdog is all about the gun-play. It simply isn't, at least not from the source that I first heard of it from. From another thread:

Here's the Description to the video that nutnfancy posted to clarify exactly what he means when he refers to "his sheepdogs in TNP." I challenge you to show me the word "gun" or "shoot" or anything that can be remotely connected to a laser-beam-like focus on weaponry to fulfill the duty he feels to his his fellow man within his explanation of how he views the concept:

The Sheepdog Concept
Uploaded on Nov 4, 2009
Your actions could save lives. At the heart of what I have referred to as The Sheepdog is a selflessness that looks outwardly to the needs of others. They cannot abide watching their fellow humans beings suffer and die while they do nothing. They are compelled into action even when those actions could lead to their own deaths or injury. The Sheepdog comes from every walk of life, every race, and can be male or female; it is impossible to identify them from appearance alone. It is their actions in the face of horrific situations that reveals the Sheepdog as they step forward when no one else will. Lenny Skutnik, in the face of the tragic Air Florida crash in 1982 into the icy Potomac River, was just such an unassuming Sheepdog. He jumped into the aviation fuel soaked and frigid waters to save passenger Priscilla Tirado just before she slipped beneath the water to her death. Hundreds had been watching Priscilla flounder and would have watch her die without doing anything. These are sheep that are frozen into inaction by their lives of denial and lack of mental and material preparation. They are not bad people but nore are they heroic; they're just there. Leeny's Sheepdog heart was revealed that day. They are others like him in civilian, law enforcement, fire fighting, and military ranks. But they are relatively few indeed and they are special. Few have what I feel possess the other key qualities of the Sheepdog (discussed in the video): a strong value system, unassuming manner, bravery, judgment and maturity, preparation, practiced skill sets, and a strong sense of duty in the face of often scary circumstances. The Sheepdog Concept is foundational to my gear reviews here: an attempt to give quality information to help equip you good people for your "day." Both mental and material prepartation can expand your capabilities in this important calling. Good Sheepdogs span the ranks and include responsible and caring civilians, law enforcement officials, firefighters, paramedics, PJs, EMTs, pilots, and soldiers. Many of these come to TNP to get this info as they equip and prepare. I try hard not to let them down. I salute them all and I myself try to aspire to their level.​

​

Now, the very next post by Treo completely ignored the proof that he has a jaded, mistaken view of what nutnfancy promotes, notwithstanding that your source, Bikenut, is Grossman. The link to the video is still good and the Description is exactly the same, so I would encourage you to take a peek and see if nutnfancy's presentation sounds anything akin to what Treo says he "hears" whenever he sees the word "sheepdog:"

Again, to be very clear I don’t get “altruistic, self sacrifice for the good of mankind” when I read the term sheepdog, what I get is “I want to use my gun and be a hero, I want to pretend that having a Carry Permit makes me a de facto auxiliary police officer regardless of my level of training or judgment or even fitness . I want to assume a position of superiority over the “sheep” and I’m so desperate for something outside myself to validate my existence and my importance that’ll I will perpetuate this myth just to make myself feel good. "

That's what I hear when I hear "sheepdog"

It's amazing to me to read Treo talking about others assuming "...a position of superiority" as he judges from afar anyone who deigns to use the word "we" in relation to supporting selfless and helpful efforts overseas without being in a position to go overseas themselves.

So tell me what you think, Bikenut. Does that YouTube Description focus squarely on the gun? Does the video itself speak in the same language as the words of Grossman whom you have valid disagreement with?

I would venture to say that the vast majority of folks who know anything about what it means to be a sheepdog on a site like this, learned whatever bits and pieces they know from nutnfancy, not Grossman. It's not like it's a life's philosophy for me or anyone I know. I just happened to run across a video that I listened to part of (the first time - I have since listened to the whole thing) and I related to the meme of selflessness as being a laudable trait. It simply validated many of the things I've done in my life as compliant with the philosophy before ever having heard about it. All this "wannabe cop" and "you sheepdogs are just praying for a chance to get into a gunfight" is so much dishonest blather that I am just done sittin' still for it.

Call it crap if you must, but there it is, that crap didn't just appear out of a vacuum. It's been going on for a long time and I'm tired of being trolled.

Blues

 

[Bikenut]

Umm...That's what the thread's about. Why on Earth would you try to stifle discussion of it?

With respect Blues...the thread is about Grossman's definition of "sheepdog"... not your definition of "sheepdog". And I do NOT fit Grossman's definition nor does the average everyday carry permit holder fit that definition yet it seems there are entirely too many folks who think they do. And that is my point of contention.

I'm sure you have noticed that I've always mentioned that I MIGHT intervene for a stranger.... yet I'm still not a "sheepdog" because I am NOT obligated to intervene and save some stranger's ass.

Really Bikenut, when I made my first post about "anti-sheepdogs descending on this thread blah blah blah" I had no idea that you were one of them.

I get annoyed with the folks who think their carry permit suddenly makes them some kind of "defender of mankind" just because of the "sheepdog" BS spewed all over the internet.

It was not directed at you at all, and even after all the exclamation points and calling my opinions "crap" etc., it still isn't.

Please reread my post about all this sheepdog crap. No where did I make mention of your posts or your definition of what you consider a sheepdog to be. My post stood alone without any quotes or mention of any posts of anyone else.

I said already that my understanding of the concept did not come from Grossman. I learned of it being his original idea about a year or so ago in a thread similar to this one, only it was posted from the anti-sheepdog perspective. It was incongruous to me because, like I said already, the source I heard it from presents it as much less about gun-play than it is about just plain ol' selflessness and helpfulness. I get what you're saying now that I've seen a little of what Grossman has said on the subject, but as Treo rightly pointed out (!!!!) in another anti-sheepdog thread, his concept was meant for true warriors, soldiers, Marines, cops etc., not permission-slip holders.

The part of your post I put in bold is my point!!! Ordinary everyday carry permit holders are not soldiers, Marines, or cops, ... nor are they "warriors". But some think that this "sheepdog" concept makes them warriors.

I also said that this has already been explained to the most vociferous, judgmental, cranky, holier-than-thou anti-sheepdog on this site before. He kept saying that being a sheepdog is all about the gun-play. It simply isn't, at least not from the source that I first heard of it from. From another thread:

​

Now, the very next post by Treo completely ignored the proof that he has a jaded, mistaken view of what nutnfancy promotes, notwithstanding that your source, Bikenut, is Grossman. The link to the video is still good and the Description is exactly the same, so I would encourage you to take a peek and see if nutnfancy's presentation sounds anything akin to what Treo says he "hears" whenever he sees the word "sheepdog:"

But again... this thread is about Lt. Col. Grossman's article about what constitutes a "sheepdog"... not what nutnfancy's description may happen to be. And my comments are about Lt. Col. Grossman's definition of a "sheepdog" and ordinary everyday carry permit holders thinking just because they carry a gun they suddenly become "sheepdog" "warriors".

It's amazing to me to read Treo talking about others assuming "...a position of superiority" as he judges from afar anyone who deigns to use the word "we" in relation to supporting selfless and helpful efforts overseas without being in a position to go overseas themselves.

Again, with respect for both you and Treo.... I'm not interested in the pissing contest you and Treo have going. I just do not like to see ordinary permit holders think they are some kind of "sheepdog" saviors of the meek and weak.

So tell me what you think, Bikenut. Does that YouTube Description focus squarely on the gun? Does the video itself speak in the same language as the words of Grossman whom you have valid disagreement with?

I would venture to say that the vast majority of folks who know anything about what it means to be a sheepdog on a site like this, learned whatever bits and pieces they know from nutnfancy, not Grossman. It's not like it's a life's philosophy for me or anyone I know. I just happened to run across a video that I listened to part of (the first time - I have since listened to the whole thing) and I related to the meme of selflessness as being a laudable trait. It simply validated many of the things I've done in my life as compliant with the philosophy before ever having heard about it. All this "wannabe cop" and "you sheepdogs are just praying for a chance to get into a gunfight" is so much dishonest blather that I am just done sittin' still for it.

Call it crap if you must, but there it is, that crap didn't just appear out of a vacuum. It's been going on for a long time and I'm tired of being trolled.

Blues

Some of my comments are in blue above.

There is a difference between folks who render aid and assistance to victims who have suffered attacks, misfortune, or been injured and what Grossman calls a "sheepdog"... and we are talking about Grossman's definition of a sheepdog and not nutnfancy's definition right?. Let me quote an excerpt from Grossman's article about what Grossman's article refers to as a "sheepdog"...

Link Removed

"Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones."

Underling added by me for emphasis.

And, in my not so humble opinion, that kind of mindset in an ordinary concealed carry permit holder just itching to pull his "element of surprise" on some bad guy and heroically save the day because he fancies himself to be a "sheepdog" is a recipe for disaster.

And THAT is why I am disgusted with the idea that ordinary folks carrying guns are supposed to be some kind of "sheepdog" savior of humanity.

Now... let me stress that I have great respect for your postings Blues but I suspect there is, or hopefully now used to be, a misunderstanding of why I am not too thrilled with some ordinary permit holders who seem to have latched onto Grossman's concept of a "sheepdog" as a means of pumping up their egos.... and don't hesitate to pontificate on the internet about how they are following the higher calling of being a sheepdog.

 

[Treo]

I think that if my entire post had been quoted my position would have been much clearer I have edited out the stuff that wasn't directly related to my position on sheep dogs.

As for the altruistic things that we do for other folks again, that’s not what comes across (or at least it’s not what I hear) when people talk about being a sheep dog so, if that’s what you guys are trying to convey you need to work on your communication skills.

I don’t see those things (again) as part of being a sheep dog or at least they aren’t what’s emphasized. I have paid for a stranger’s gas at a gas station before; I’ve also rendered first aid when needed and called the police to the scene of an accident. I’ve also taken homeless friends into my home and given people rides (although I certainly wouldn’t allow a stranger into my car now) but again those types of incidents aren’t what’s discussed when the word “sheepdog” starts getting thrown around. The topic then is usually plugging the bad guys at the Waffle House or the Burger King, or the ubiquitous two guys in a van abducting young girls at Wal Mart. IOW the word always seems to come up when you (generic) want talk about using your shinny new gun to be a “hero”.


It could be your loud voice as you take control of a chaotic situation.

I read this and I have to ask, “By what authority” are you taking control of a chaotic situation and what qualifies you to take such authority?" Because that, right there, is why the whole sheepdog mind set concerns me; because it’s all about a assuming a position that isn’t yours and claiming authority you don’t have.

What happens when you attempt to “take control of that chaotic situation” and the "sheep" tell you to frak off or ignore you entirely?





If you don’t understand my position by now maybe I need to work on my communication skills.

Again, to be very clear I don’t get “altruistic, self sacrifice for the good of mankind” when I read the term sheepdog, what I get is “I want to use my gun and be a hero, I want to pretend that having a Carry Permit makes me a de facto auxiliary police officer regardless of my level of training or judgment or even fitness . I want to assume a position of superiority over the “sheep” and I’m so desperate for something outside myself to validate my existence and my importance that’ll I will perpetuate this myth just to make myself feel good. "

That's what I hear when I hear "sheepdog"

I also see people (including nutnfancy and my buddy from work and the whack jobs from the "citizen's CB Patrol") that take that mind set and damn near make a religion out of it. This partially amuses me and partially scares the hell out of me.

 

[Treo]

Edited out........

 

[Treo]

Call it crap if you must, but there it is, that crap didn't just appear out of a vacuum. It's been going on for a long time and I'm tired of being trolled.

Blues

When you say you’re “tired of being trolled” I assume you are talking about me and I find that odd because for all that you say that my opinion is meaningless to you, you certainly do seem to show up in any thread I participate in to refute it. Maybe you aren’t the one being trolled.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Don't worry Treo! I got you covered!


Sent from behind enemy lines.

 

[Treo]

Some of my comments are in blue above.

There is a difference between folks who render aid and assistance to victims who have suffered attacks, misfortune, or been injured and what Grossman calls a "sheepdog"... and we are talking about Grossman's definition of a sheepdog and not nutnfancy's definition right?. Let me quote an excerpt from Grossman's article about what Grossman's article refers to as a "sheepdog"...

Link Removed

"Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones."

Underling added by me for emphasis.

And, in my not so humble opinion, that kind of mindset in an ordinary concealed carry permit holder just itching to pull his "element of surprise" on some bad guy and heroically save the day because he fancies himself to be a "sheepdog" is a recipe for disaster.

And THAT is why I am disgusted with the idea that ordinary folks carrying guns are supposed to be some kind of "sheepdog" savior of humanity.

Now... let me stress that I have great respect for your postings Blues but I suspect there is, or hopefully now used to be, a misunderstanding of why I am not too thrilled with some ordinary permit holders who seem to have latched onto Grossman's concept of a "sheepdog" as a means of pumping up their egos.... and don't hesitate to pontificate on the internet about how they are following the higher calling of being a sheepdog.

Bikenut covered this so well there’s not a lot left for me to say
To be fair I was the first one to mention Nutnfancy in this thread even if I did so obliquely.
When the sheep dog myth shows up in gun forums it is almost monolithically in reference to Grossman’s book “Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves”, it is almost never in reference to Nutnfancy. In fact I clearly reference Grossman in the thread blues was quoting from

Grossman’s “Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves” was mainly directed at professional soldiers and police officers it was never intended to be a Raison d'être for concealed carry permit holders. It’s an analogy and like all analogies its flawed and you don’t have to take it too far to find the flaws.

I rarely if ever bring Nutnfancy into the discussion and when I do it’s always in reference to my coworker who takes every word out of his mouth as Holy Writ. That said, my coworker doesn’t ever talk about changing peoples tires as a sheep dog BTW he always directly references being armed, Nutnfancy also makes it clear that being armed is a large part of your sheep dog duty.
So again I’m led to the conclusion that it’s the gun and the permit that make you a sheepdog not some selfless act on the side of the road

 

[Treo]

Don't worry Treo! I got you covered! ��


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Damn hippie !!!!!!!

 

[r1derbike]

Holy Toledo, Batman! What a tome this has evolved into?

I really don't care what label anyone decides to describe me. I don't get the mindset that some CC'ers are itching for a showdown?

My personal experience from carrying has been one of a "sheepdog" in the shadows. I don't confront buttheads verbally, as I once did; I let it roll off my back and ignore it. I keep my mouth shut when I would have opened it before. Friends have said I'm "standoffish" when they get a little loud and proud and boisterous. I don't drink.

What has happened to me, is I've become a conservative acting human being who carries. With that responsibility has come the realization that I have to hold myself to a higher standard of behavior.

I will have no trouble protecting myself, family, or others if that protection is warranted by the threat of imminent death, with no other avenues of escape.

I don't care what anyone calls me, as long as a "responsible, law-abiding citizen who carries" is stuffed in there someplace.

Carrying has changed me. My wife says for the better.