Restaurant carry in SC


SCfromNY

New member
Just my last comment and this has been fun.

"Shall Issue" means as long as you do not have any legal issues precluding your having a permit: sex offender, felon, or some legal issue otherwise the state MUST issue in a timely manner. Again taking the most populated counties out of the mix is ridicules. And Rochester is not that bad an old friend just changed his permit to unlimited and his wife's first permit is unlimited. Saying that the process is OK in the least populated counties is not a winner. Again in truth the restrictions do not hold any letter of law they are administrative and not subject to penalties except loss of permit.

In SC when you enter a gun store to purchase while you do not need a permit you will still go through a NICS check. Your permits exempts you from the NICS check.

Yes, NY permits are honored in other states, the states that honor ALL permits. And yes your NY permit can get you various Non Resident permits to go to other states BUT NO ONE CAN CARRY IN NY except for competitions.

As an aside my son just got his card in NJ and I sent him a Sig. His best friend also has a carry permit for NJ. You have no idea of his connections.

It's been fun.
 

BC1

,
Just my last comment and this has been fun.

"Shall Issue" means as long as you do not have any legal issues precluding your having a permit the state MUST issue in a timely manner.

In SC when you enter a gun store to purchase while you do not need a permit you will still go through a NICS check. Your permits exempts you from the NICS check.

Yes, NY permits are honored in other states, the states that honor ALL permits. And yes your NY permit can get you various Non Resident permits to go to other states BUT NO ONE CAN CARRY IN NY except for competitions.

As an aside my son just got his card in NJ and I sent him a Sig. His best friend also has a carry permit for NJ. You have no idea of his connections.

It's been fun.
Shall issue as you define it is exactly the same as in NY. You cannot be denied without proper cause and such cause must be stated to you in writing. You may then appeal the ruling. NY cannot arbitrarily deny. It must be based on some valid reason... same as every "shall-issue" state. NY must allow the issuance of a permit without justification for the denial thereof. NY allows out-of-state residents to enter for training purposes as well as competition; See PL 265.20 (13-a). We routinely issue a letter of appointment to non-residents allowing them to enter the state for NRA sanctioned classes. The letter states the course name, location, date/time and must be signed by an instructor as defined in NYS PL 265.00.

I personally think no one should carry a gun in NYC. I favor that law. I spend a lot of time there... you probably have too. There is no possible way to discharge a firearm in manhattan in self defense without causing collateral damage or personal injury to innocent people. C'mon, 10,000,000 people are shoulder-to-shoulder on the street every day. There is no safe direction.

I Double checked the Rochester statutes and found the carry restriction has been gone for quite a while. I don't agree with the NYS position on reciprocity. A man's good nature doesn't change by crossing state lines. Also, NY now requires the NICS check despite the permit. The feds pushed this on NY.

A recent NYS Supreme Court decision found that any county can deny a carry permit but cannot arbitrarily deny a permit to posses in one's home or business (which would violate the SCOTUS ruling on complete bans of guns). This ruling was spearheaded by a liberal Democrat panel in Westchester. I believe that the NRA/ILA efforts in NY will end the draconian laws for Nassau and Suffolk counties.

A carry permit in NJ is an extreme rarity. NJ is a "may-Issue" or "disretionary-issue" state for both Residents and Non-Residents and New Jersey courts have upheld the policy of strictly limiting permits “to persons pecifically employed in security work . . . and to others who can establish an urgent necessity for carrying guns for self-protection.” Your son obviouly has a legitimate reason for issuance of a CCW permit. The vast majority of residents do not. I do a lot of my instructor trainig at Gun For Hire in Newark. The instructors there can't even get a carry permit. It's a crazy state.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.3 Criteria for the issuance of a permit to carry a handgun
(a) No application for a permit to carry a handgun shall be approved by a chief police officer of a municipality, the Superintendent or the Superior Court, unless the applicant:
1. Is a person of good character who is not subject to any of the disabilities which would
prevent him or her from obtaining a permit to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser
identification card as provided in this chapter;
2. Has demonstrated that at the time of the application for the permit he or she is thoroughly
familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns; and
3. Has demonstrated a justifiable need to carry a handgun.

One thing we can see is that the state laws throughout America are convoluted and confusing. No one could be expected to keep it all straight, especially while traveling. As a result many innocent people get jammed up. It's too bad we can't just have one set of federal laws that each state must follow.
 

SCfromNY

New member
Well my last post was going to be my last post but one opinion made me respond.

A couple of things first: You seem very knowledgeable, aside from a few thoughts that annoy me personally I wish there were more like you committed to change in states like NY. My son is NOT the one with a permit, he took 6 months to get his purchase card. One of his best friends who served overseas and whose father has many "FRIENDS" in local government has the permit.

Lastly what generated my response: We can argue points for pages and I can sometimes concede points as I hope others can. BUT ANY THOUGHT of involving the federal in rules to override states I feel would be disastrous. Bill 822 which will never get passed, but I wish would, calls for all states to honor all permits but maintains states rights to make restrictions.
 

BC1

,
Well my last post was going to be my last post but one opinion made me respond.

A couple of things first: You seem very knowledgeable, aside from a few thoughts that annoy me personally I wish there were more like you committed to change in states like NY. My son is NOT the one with a permit, he took 6 months to get his purchase card. One of his best friends who served overseas and whose father has many "FRIENDS" in local government has the permit.

Lastly what generated my response: We can argue points for pages and I can sometimes concede points as I hope others can. BUT ANY THOUGHT of involving the federal in rules to override states I feel would be disastrous. Bill 822 which will never get passed, but I wish would, calls for all states to honor all permits but maintains states rights to make restrictions.
We always hear anti's talking about common sense gun laws. It's too bad all states couldn't be made to accept some common sense requirements in support of law abiding citizens... like mandatory reciprocity, carry on public transportation, in restuarants, etc. We don't want another "Luby's" massacre because a law abiding citizen wasn't allowed to defend themself. I agree that 822 won't get passed.
 
That was great guy's. It's not often you see such ardent discussion without vitriol. I applaude you both and I learned a bit in the process, not that I ever want to go back to NYC:):)

KK
 

CLM1911

New member
I agree with KK, both SCfromNY and BC1's knowledge is note worthy, and both make excellent points about their respective states. I live in S.C., but I am from N.J. (I grew up in Elizabeth & Irvington in the 1970’s). My dad is from Manhattan (Hell’s Kitchen), and we both know the ills of both places as far as the leftist gun zealots and their agenda to keep honest, law-abiding citizens who are constitutionally authorized to carry and defend themselves, family, friends, innocent bystanders, etc. by the use of a firearm. No disrespect to BC1, but I wouldn’t give fat frog’s backside for the scraps that N.Y. throws their residents in respects to concealed weapon carry, because that’s what it is, scraps, they make you feel as though they are doing you some great service by ‘allowing’ you to have a CCW/CWP. But for what it’s worth, you might as well be Babe Ruth in a telephone booth. And New Jersikstan is even worse, because any place you have to have connections to obtain something that is everyone’s right to have is up hauling. Yes, right now in S.C. we cannot legally carry in restaurants because of alcohol sold for consumption, but that will change, and I would rather endure that minor inconvenience now, than put up with all the restrictions of the Empire & Garden states respectively. Just because you put six inches of icing on the pile of manure, doesn’t make it any more palatable.
 

Clemson12

New member
Let's look at some of your points but first the fact that you have helped 1700 obtain their permits is nice BUT a VERY small slice of the population. How many failures are there? Unless you are going to say you have a 100% success rate.

You don't like being able to walk into a gun store and buy without a permit BUT you applaud no training or qualifications required. There is a pesky little thing called the 2nd Amendment.

Working through a FFL and presenting a coupon is NOT a private sale.

Judge overseeing REGISTRATION (what we don't have)is paramount to permission unless in your world the judge never says no.

Carrying in other states IS a NYS issue. Reciprocal status mean that each state honors the other's permit. What state does NY honor? They could honor NJ since the permits are even harder to get than NY.

As the forum expert you can verify the validity of this: While what you say about NY's Castle Doctrine is true as far as I know like a true Castle Doctrine it does not exempt you from civil suits even if the shooting was legally justified.

A "SHALL ISSUE" state means that SPECIAL counties can not refuse or make there own rules. As a legal advocate I am sure that that you know while judges restrictions are added to permits they hold no letter of law, except the NYC ones, and while you may lose your permit you are innocent of charges.

Your turn.
Approval rate is close to 100%, around 99.9%... one denial in over 1,700 permits.

I don't personally applaud the "no training" requirement. As an instructor I see some bad stuff and believe no one should be allowed to have any firearm without training. This is the state's rule, I don't applaud it.

The judge overseeing registration is not paramount to permission. The judge may not deny the license amendment unless the permit is revoked. As long as one has a permit the state does not refuse a new firearm. Find any case law to the contrary and I'll concede. Our attorney advises as long as they honor the permit. There is no limit on the number of guns or frequency of purchase in NYS. Also, there is no such thing as a CCW permit without a gun registered to the permit. So denying a permit amendment to add a gun constitutes a complete denial of the right, which has been determined unconstitutional by the SCOTUS.

Carrying in other states is not a NY issue. Presently 12 states allow carry with a NY permit. NY is wrong for not recognizing other states reciprocity but other states aren't actively punishing NY residents for this.

I personally don't want people buying and selling handguns without obtaining a NICS check or permit. Gun registration in itself is not a precursor to confiscation. Requiring SC residents to renew a CCW permit provides an opportunity to deny the renewal, immediately making the gun owner a felon. This is much worse than registration.

NJ doesn't allow CCW permits to the general public. NJ doesn't allow the carrying of a loaded firearm by its own residents. NY cannot honor a permit that one doesn't have. NJ allows firearm ownership without registration through a FOID card only. NY will allow NJ residents to enter the state and shoot under the direct supervision of an NRA instructor or at any competition.

Castle doctrine is based in the concept of "a man's home is his castle." This has nothing to do with lawsuits. It has been tagged by others because some (not all) states expanded the definition to include lawsuits. However, our attorney is unable to find any successful law suits in NYS made by a perp against his victim in a justified shooting. Althougn suits have been filed they have not survived motions to dismiss, motions for summary judgement and the decisions of juries. Try finding a case. We can't.

Shall issue does not exist anywhere. Any state can deny your right to own a gun based in cause. Such cause is generally limited to criminal or psychiatric history. In NYS, the licensing officer of any county/city can limit the carrying of a gun to certain activities, but they cannot summarily deny ownership. This has already been decided by the supreme court in both Heller and McDonald. However, we only see this in NYC, Albany, Rochester, Westchester, Nassau an Suffolk counties. Each county or city that wants to do this must request an amendment to PL 400. Suxh amendments won't pass the GOP controlled senate anymore. Most of these amendments were made some time ago when the political climate was less friendly. This is still unfortunate for those county residents as others can enter any of these counties legally armed without any problems.
Your point that I put in bold, along with a few others in your statement ARE unconstitutional and would be considered INFRINGEMENT! Anyone who teaches this stuff should be the first to know that laws only restrict law abiding citizens...a complete redundancy!
 

whitetiger

New member
Ok I am glad you guys are so nice in this talk. So here is my question, 1700 permits? thats it? you don't trust most people in your state I think there are way more than 1700 good people in NY state. 1700 are they all priests, are they that much better than everyone else. only 1700
sounds like a gift between good old boys! Wisconsin 800.000 down loaded apps in one night, 37000 apps turned in in one week.
 

BC1

,
Ok I am glad you guys are so nice in this talk. So here is my question, 1700 permits? thats it? you don't trust most people in your state I think there are way more than 1700 good people in NY state. 1700 are they all priests, are they that much better than everyone else. only 1700
sounds like a gift between good old boys! Wisconsin 800.000 down loaded apps in one night, 37000 apps turned in in one week.
1,700 permits by my company alone... we perform permit services for a fee. The services include forms completion, fingerprint services, photos, notary services, interview prep and legal representation should a problem arise. State-wide there are about 1.2 million CCW permit holders. NYS total population is roughly 19,378,102. NYC 2010 population was recorded at 8,175,133, very few have a pistol permit. Upstate population is about 11 million with 1.2 million CCW permits. Roughly 9% of the upstate population has a CCW permit.

Some nutjob has created a website with the name and address of every NY permit holder. He is from PA. NY residents might consider checking to see how much of their data is listed on the web.
Link Removed
 

BC1

,
Your point that I put in bold, along with a few others in your statement ARE unconstitutional and would be considered INFRINGEMENT! Anyone who teaches this stuff should be the first to know that laws only restrict law abiding citizens...a complete redundancy!
Unfortunately this is incorrect. The second amendment infringement you mention is your personal opinion. The meaning of the second amendment is defined and interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court. Two recent decisions (Heller & McDonald), by a republican controlled supremem court, found that although the right to bear arms is a personal right, it can be infringed. The court found that reasonable restrictions can be placed on the right to bear arms as long as the restriction does not constitute a complete ban. States are allowed to place a complete ban on persons who pose a threat to public safety such as a convicted felon or a person with a psychiatric disorder. Thus there is not an unrestricted right anywhere in America. I suggest reading the high court's decision on each of these cases.
 

Berta

New member
1,700 permits by my company alone... we perform permit services for a fee. The services include forms completion, fingerprint services, photos, notary services, interview prep and legal representation should a problem arise. State-wide there are about 1.2 million CCW permit holders. NYS total population is roughly 19,378,102. NYC 2010 population was recorded at 8,175,133, very few have a pistol permit. Upstate population is about 11 million with 1.2 million CCW permits. Roughly 9% of the upstate population has a CCW permit.

Some nutjob has created a website with the name and address of every NY permit holder. He is from PA. NY residents might consider checking to see how much of their data is listed on the web.
Link Removed

My father and brother are both on the list, along with their home address. This is one reason I do not use my home address for anything. My DL and CWP both have a UPS mailbox address.
 

wwalker1187

New member
as of right now, you CAN carry your concealed weapon into a reesturant that serves alcholic beverages AS LONG as YOU are not drinking alchol.

Since I got my SC CWP, I've been looking at every door to every business that I go to to see if they have posted signs. A movie theater near me has a sign (The correct and SC Legal sign) on the side of the boxoffice. I infomed the manager that the sign was in the incorrect spot. he said, "The company made me post the sign, but i feel that if patron's feel safer carrying, then they should be allowed to carry."
 

chiefpropellerhead

Chiefpropellerhead
I believe that you are incorrect. In the SC code it clearly states that if you carry a concealed weapon at establishments that sell alcohol for on site consumption then you are in violation. Look for where the alcohol regulations are. I am not sitting on my regular laptop and it is harder to do from my iPad. Trust me, i only wish we could carry in restaurants that sell alcohol for on site consumption.

as of right now, you CAN carry your concealed weapon into a reesturant that serves alcholic beverages AS LONG as YOU are not drinking alchol.

Since I got my SC CWP, I've been looking at every door to every business that I go to to see if they have posted signs. A movie theater near me has a sign (The correct and SC Legal sign) on the side of the boxoffice. I infomed the manager that the sign was in the incorrect spot. he said, "The company made me post the sign, but i feel that if patron's feel safer carrying, then they should be allowed to carry."
 
I believe that you are incorrect. In the SC code it clearly states that if you carry a concealed weapon at establishments that sell alcohol for on site consumption then you are in violation. Look for where the alcohol regulations are. I am not sitting on my regular laptop and it is harder to do from my iPad. Trust me, i only wish we could carry in restaurants that sell alcohol for on site consumption.

You are correct. No carrying in a resturant that sell alcohol for consumption. there need not be a sign because you should know it already. Carry in a resturant serving alcohol and you'll lose permit if someone see's you.

KK
 

chiefpropellerhead

Chiefpropellerhead
I am home now and found the actual code. They really need to add this to the subsection that tells where you can and cannot carry.

SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on premises consumption.

In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16 11 330 and 16 23 460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked.

You are correct. No carrying in a resturant that sell alcohol for consumption. there need not be a sign because you should know it already. Carry in a resturant serving alcohol and you'll lose permit if someone see's you.

KK
 
I guess I don't understand how someone could sit through a CWP class and still think you can carry into a resturant that serves alcohol.

That's one of the biggest pet peeve's I know of for CWP holders.

KK
 

chiefpropellerhead

Chiefpropellerhead
In our class the instructor outlined the section in the SC code that specifically speaks to where you can and cannot carry a concealed weapon. He did not highlight the one I posted above. I did not realize this until someone brought it to my attention and I looked it up for myself. I wonder if enough businesses realized that they are losing revenue because of this law if they would lobby to have it changed. As I understand it alcohol sales has a huge markup and therefore brings a lot of profits to the restaurants and that is why they sell it. I also believe that there should be a stipulation that says if you carry concealed that you should not be drinking. That does not mean that someone in your party could not be carrying concealed and the rest of you have a drink. There has to be a common sense compromise to this. Other states allow it such as in Virginia.
 
There is a bill before the house now, from what I understand, that will allow carry in resturants. From what I understand, it also has some pretty ridiculous other stuff and it will never pass.

I have little time to pursue politics so I never looked it up to see what it says but you're right, the resturant owners should be made more aware of this idiotic law and maybe they could change it.

I would like to say that I refuse to go into all business's that don't allow carry but I still go into resturants because they themselves are not restricting CC, and I like nice resturants:):)

I hate, the whole time I'm in the resturant, thinking about gun in the car and an empty holster on my side. It really grates on me.

KK
 

chiefpropellerhead

Chiefpropellerhead
I go to Kingstreet Grill between 11am and 4 pm for their half price burgers and I have to disarm myself. I guess the motivation to save a buck overrides my common sense to carry. For the most part, if the restaurant sells alcohol I just do not go in. On another note, I have found that most restaurant owners have no clue about the concealed carry laws. I guess when they are talking to SLED about their beer and wine and alcohol licenses they never cover that section. Maybe it is just deemed unimportant. Maybe having some restaurants robbed and people hurt will have to happen before they take notice.
 

SCfromNY

New member
OK, here is my problem with all this restaurant and alcohol conversation; On the SLED website and SC law website it has I believe 10 places where you are restricted to carry. None of these are restaurants that serve alcohol. The problem arises with this: SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on premises consumption.

This section is NOT directed at concealed carry. The 2 words UNLAWFULLY CARRYING is the key. If it is not restricted under the CWP then it is not unlawful. The law would only restrict those not allowed to carry by SC law.

Less you believe this is a self serving argument I checked on the validity of this a while ago and why Grass Roots was not doing something about it. At that time Grass Roots informed me that they had the bill pulled because with careful scrutiny it was OK to carry. Then someone stupid asked for an Attorney General's opinion and he stated you could not carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. His opinion but NOT law.

I am not brave enough to be the test case. BTW . . . For the poster that hates Grass Roots, this is NOT an opening to rage please save it for another thread.
 

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