Question about when it is considered appropriate to defend myself and to what degree.


GabbyDP said:
There are no restrictions on age at all? I had previously heard that in order to obtain a permit for CCW you need to be at least 21. I heard incorrectly obviously! Would you apply for a CCW permit through the same process? I thought I had a fairly good understanding.. clearly not! :wink:
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The process varies from State to State. To get a non-resident NH, you must first possess any other States CCW. In your case your only options are ND or ME as they issue at age 18 with the only requirement besides a clean criminal background being a training class. For ND, you must be administered a written exam by a ND certified test administrator.
I don't understand how someone can be sued if its proven that the shooting took place due to self defense, doesn't seem reasonable to me..is it a civil law issue, even if it's proven that the shooting took place for self defense and you are not prosecuted by the state?
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We live in a litigation makes right society. Criminals can sue property owners for getting injured on their property during the commission of a crime. There's a lot of case law on this issue in virtually all States. This is why you can be sued for wrongful death or personal injury in States that do not have blanket civil suit immunity for lawful self defense. You can sue anyone for any reason unless there's a law prohibiting it. Part of the castle doctrine and stand your ground statutes is a prohibition of civil suits for lawful acts of self defense. You don't have such a thing in PA which is why you can get sued for personal injury or wrongful death in PA.

Case and point, we have civil suit immunity for use of lethal force in your domicile in Nevada, but not in public. If someone attempts to vehicle jack me and I lawfully defend myself from the incident, I can be sued for wrongful death or personal injury.

However if the incident happens in my home and I go Tony Montana and cut the subjects in half with with my MAK-90, AR-15 or one of my shotguns and it's obvious it was an act of home defense Henderson PD will just come and do the necessary evidence processing and eventually I get my firearms used in the incident back with no harm no foul as it was defense of habitation with civil suit immunity under NRS 41.095. The prosecution has the burden of proof that it was not an act of self defense in my home State of Nevada.

I probably will get the same courtesy for an act of self defense in public but I also know that I can expect a process server with a civil suit sometime in the future for justifiable use of lethal force until we have a stand your ground statute in Nevada with civil suit immunity.

Now if I'm in FL, IN or MO and someone attempts to auto jack me, I'm immune from civil suits because their respective State laws cover all lawful acts of self defense. We've already had at least one incident of the Florida stand your ground statute being tested.
 

netentity said:
Now if I'm in FL, IN or MO and someone attempts to auto jack me, I'm immune from civil suits because their respective State laws cover all lawful acts of self defense. We've already had at least one incident of the Florida stand your ground statute being tested.
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TN recently passed a law like this. It hasn't been tested but it states that if it is found that the shooting was justified self defense, you can not be sued in a civil court.
 
netentity said:
The process varies from State to State. To get a non-resident NH, you must first possess any other States CCW. In your case your only options are ND or ME as they issue at age 18 with the only requirement besides a clean criminal background being a training class. For ND, you must be administered a written exam by a ND certified test administrator.

We live in a litigation makes right society. Criminals can sue property owners for getting injured on their property during the commission of a crime. There's a lot of case law on this issue in virtually all States. This is why you can be sued for wrongful death or personal injury in States that do not have blanket civil suit immunity for lawful self defense. You can sue anyone for any reason unless there's a law prohibiting it. Part of the castle doctrine and stand your ground statutes is a prohibition of civil suits for lawful acts of self defense. You don't have such a thing in PA which is why you can get sued for personal injury or wrongful death in PA.

Case and point, we have civil suit immunity for use of lethal force in your domicile in Nevada, but not in public. If someone attempts to vehicle jack me and I lawfully defend myself from the incident, I can be sued for wrongful death or personal injury.

However if the incident happens in my home and I go Tony Montana and cut the subjects in half with with my MAK-90, AR-15 or one of my shotguns and it's obvious it was an act of home defense Henderson PD will just come and do the necessary evidence processing and eventually I get my firearms used in the incident back with no harm no foul as it was defense of habitation with civil suit immunity under NRS 41.095. The prosecution has the burden of proof that it was not an act of self defense in my home State of Nevada.

I probably will get the same courtesy for an act of self defense in public but I also know that I can expect a process server with a civil suit sometime in the future for justifiable use of lethal force until we have a stand your ground statute in Nevada with civil suit immunity.

Now if I'm in FL, IN or MO and someone attempts to auto jack me, I'm immune from civil suits because their respective State laws cover all lawful acts of self defense. We've already had at least one incident of the Florida stand your ground statute being tested.
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Am I able to take the training class in PA?

Hmm, so that's a lot to take into consideration..I will be in FL come August, and won't be able to CCW anway, but until then if I decide to CCW there is a lot to take into account. :smile:
 
GabbyDP said:
Am I able to take the training class in PA?
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Yes. ME takes any NRA training. ND requires that the test be administered by a ND certified instructor. ND is your best bet as it's honored in PA. There are two in PA as of the last list. See the Link Removed for the list and contact information. If you wish to go this route, request some application packages from the Link Removed.
Hmm, so that's a lot to take into consideration..I will be in FL come August, and won't be able to CCW anway, but until then if I decide to CCW there is a lot to take into account. :smile:
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If you plan on traveling to States where the ND, NH and ME combination will work for you then IMO it's worth getting. Once you turn 21, get PA and UT and let your ND lapse. If you're in FL, it may be easier just to use your ND training certificate to get FL while you're there since they do issue quickly if you do electronic fingerprinting.

Unfortunately your only options for legal CCW in FL is to get a resident PA or a FL, both issue at 21 or over. It's also codified under Link Removed that you must possess a resident CCW and be 21 or over to be extended recognition or reciprocity.

The only reason to get ND is if you live in ND or if you're 18 to under 21 and are looking for some method of lawful CCW in States that extend recognition or reciprocity to 18 to under 21 year olds. In most States, the 21 year chronological age requirement is to apply, not to legally carry under a recognized or reciprocal CCW.
 
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I may be wrong, but I think to get a NH non-resident, you have to have a resident permit in your home state. The NH non-resident app asks for your resident state permit number. I looked into it because I plan on getting one as I travel to NH now and then. I don't know if they would accept a training certificate from your home state in lieu of a valid permit.
 
rrc1962 said:
I may be wrong, but I think to get a NH non-resident, you have to have a resident permit in your home state. The NH non-resident app asks for your resident state permit number. I looked into it because I plan on getting one as I travel to NH now and then. I don't know if they would accept a training certificate from your home state in lieu of a valid permit.
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NH is a no training required or needed State. Training is irrelevant.

NH changed that the fall of 2004. See the Link Removed. Note item one if you're a non-resident except for VT; to be issued a non-resident NH license. "A copy (front & back) of your valid concealed carry permit issued by the state, county, or town in which you reside, or a valid concealed permit issued by any other state." Note the revision date of the DSSP260 (the application form number) is 1/05.
 
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GabbyDP,

I think we're miscommunicating, here (imagine that). I agree that women are more apt to be assaulted than men. My point about women being granted more slack than men had to do with the response of law enforcement. If I'm punched in the face, have my nose broken, and shoot the attacker, I think I'm gonna have more trouble with the law than a woman who responds the same way. Does this make sense or am I still sinking in "gender bias" mire?
 
netentity said:
NH is a no training required or needed State. Training is irrelevant.

NH changed that the fall of 2004. See the Link Removed. Note item one if you're a non-resident except for VT; to be issued a non-resident NH license. "A copy (front & back) of your valid concealed carry permit issued by the state, county, or town in which you reside, or a valid concealed permit issued by any other state." Note the revision date of the DSSP260 (the application form number) is 1/05.
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Hmm, all in all it may be worth waiting. If I'm understanding correctly, I have to be 21 to CCW in Florida, regardless of having permits in other states, etc. And seeing as I will be moving to Florida come July or August, it seems that it won't be worthwhile to take training classes now etc, assuming that I would want to take them again before getting my permit to CCW in Florida. Does it sound like I understand all of this correctly? Slightly confused..but I think I understand the general idea.
 
netentity said:
Yes. ME takes any NRA training. ND requires that the test be administered by a ND certified instructor. ND is your best bet as it's honored in PA. There are two in PA as of the last list. See the Link Removed for the list and contact information. If you wish to go this route, request some application packages from the Link Removed.

If you plan on traveling to States where the ND, NH and ME combination will work for you then IMO it's worth getting. Once you turn 21, get PA and UT and let your ND lapse. If you're in FL, it may be easier just to use your ND training certificate to get FL while you're there since they do issue quickly if you do electronic fingerprinting.

Unfortunately your only options for legal CCW in FL is to get a resident PA or a FL, both issue at 21 or over. It's also codified under Link Removed that you must possess a resident CCW and be 21 or over to be extended recognition or reciprocity.

The only reason to get ND is if you live in ND or if you're 18 to under 21 and are looking for some method of lawful CCW in States that extend recognition or reciprocity to 18 to under 21 year olds. In most States, the 21 year chronological age requirement is to apply, not to legally carry under a recognized or reciprocal CCW.
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Ok, I definitely understand now :smile:
 
it seems that it won't be worthwhile to take training classes now etc, assuming that I would want to take them again before getting my permit to CCW in Florida.
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Training is always worthwhile. While you might not want to take the specific course for a CCW in Florida. A shooting class or a force on force class might be well worthwhile.
 
I don't remember a time limit for training for a FL CCW, so a class that meets Florida's standard would kill 2 birds at once.
 
GabbyDP said:
I was sitting in my Law class a few weeks ago and the teacher mentioned that someone is only able to use physical force if their life is in immediate danger, for example, he said that an individual is not able to shoot someone if their car is being stolen. But I am a little bit confused when it comes to distinguishing between "your life being in immediate danger" and if someone has intentions of harming me (in my home, in a dark parking lot, wherever; I'm a female, you get where I'm going with this..) If I happened to be carrying concealed or open and I have a permit to do so, to what degree am I able to defend myself? Granted, I do not carry, but I would love to have a better understanding of how I could best handle the suggestion. If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it :)
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Depends on your state. State laws vary a great deal. In Washington state it is legal to use lethal force to protect property, stop a felony, to stop a felon from fleeing the scene of a crime if they pose a threat to others, In defense of self and others from grievous bodily harm or death.

Washington State goes one step further and requires that the state pay all legal fees and costs of providing a defense if someone is charged with a crime and proves the shooting was justified

Some states require you flee from an attacker even inside your home and make it illegal to use a gun to stop an attack unless you can no longer flee have tried and failed at all other ways to stop the attack and only if the attack is life threatening. i.e. may not be used to stop say a rape. I think that Illinois is one such state thanks to the Obamanation who lobbied and voted to kill a law that would allow a gun to be used in self defense in your home.

So my opinion is read that law in your state. Read all of it everything. Research homicide, lethal force

Rules of thumb you may (and I think are obligated to) use whatever force is necessary to prevent previous injury or death of any human being self and others. Grievous harm is serious injury, a sever beating, any stabbing, gun shot or rape i.e. any non consensual sex act. You do not get to or want to shoot someone for giving you a black eye or fat lip.

You can only use lethal force as long as the threat remains you may not break someone's legs and continue to beat them as they lay on the ground no matter how much they may deserve it. You may not shoot some after they have surrendered and are complying with your orders.

Consult with a reputable criminal defense attorney have them explain the laws in your state and the courts interpretation of those laws.

The very best advice I have is do not be a volunteer victim. If you know you live in a dangerous world and refuse to do what is needed to protect yourself and your loved one you are volunteering yourself and them to be a unarmed defenseless victims.

Learn to shoot a gun, buy the gun you shoot best.

Get a permit and carry that gun everywhere you legally can, every day.

Get advanced training

The woman laying in the ally raped and strangled to death with her own stockings IS NOT morally superior to the woman explaining why the rapist has two bullet holes in his chest to the police.

The latter will go to take care of her loved ones, continue to contribute to the community and save other women from being brutalized and their lives destroyed. Of the two isn't that the woman you want to be? Not the source of agony and grief to all those you love.

Hope that helps a little
 
LongRider said:
Depends on your state. State laws vary a great deal. In Washington state it is legal to use lethal force to protect property, stop a felony, to stop a felon from fleeing the scene of a crime if they pose a threat to others, In defense of self and others from grievous bodily harm or death.

Washington State goes one step further and requires that the state pay all legal fees and costs of providing a defense if someone is charged with a crime and proves the shooting was justified

Some states require you flee from an attacker even inside your home and make it illegal to use a gun to stop an attack unless you can no longer flee have tried and failed at all other ways to stop the attack and only if the attack is life threatening. i.e. may not be used to stop say a rape. I think that Illinois is one such state thanks to the Obamanation who lobbied and voted to kill a law that would allow a gun to be used in self defense in your home.

So my opinion is read that law in your state. Read all of it everything. Research homicide, lethal force

Rules of thumb you may (and I think are obligated to) use whatever force is necessary to prevent previous injury or death of any human being self and others. Grievous harm is serious injury, a sever beating, any stabbing, gun shot or rape i.e. any non consensual sex act. You do not get to or want to shoot someone for giving you a black eye or fat lip.

You can only use lethal force as long as the threat remains you may not break someone's legs and continue to beat them as they lay on the ground no matter how much they may deserve it. You may not shoot some after they have surrendered and are complying with your orders.

Consult with a reputable criminal defense attorney have them explain the laws in your state and the courts interpretation of those laws.

The very best advice I have is do not be a volunteer victim. If you know you live in a dangerous world and refuse to do what is needed to protect yourself and your loved one you are volunteering yourself and them to be a unarmed defenseless victims.

Learn to shoot a gun, buy the gun you shoot best.

Get a permit and carry that gun everywhere you legally can, every day.

Get advanced training

The woman laying in the ally raped and strangled to death with her own stockings IS NOT morally superior to the woman explaining why the rapist has two bullet holes in his chest to the police.

The latter will go to take care of her loved ones, continue to contribute to the community and save other women from being brutalized and their lives destroyed. Of the two isn't that the woman you want to be? Not the source of agony and grief to all those you love.

Hope that helps a little
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Thank you, very helpful :happy:
 
Hmm. To me, if it is nighttime + you are home + someone breaks into your home the legal interpretation is that your life is in danger by definition. That's why daylight B&E's are in general treated differently then "nighttime home invasions".

The idea of attempting to discover, at night, in your dark home, with a menacing stranger there, whether he is armed or not, is, I am sorry, insane.
 
when

Dear GabbyDP/Pa
The best I can offer is that you attend Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force institute when he is touring the country and close to your location. It is four days and is not cheap. However, when you have completed the course, you will have no doubt about what you can legally do and not do under a variety of circumstances. His course is top drawer and is mostly lecture about the law. There is some shooting , but not much.
Best
YN
 
Castle Doctrine

I'm surprised no one has brought this up, or maybe I missed it. Here in the Great (Southern) State of Georgia, the state congress recently passed a bill called the Castle Doctrine. It plainly reads

"In a split second decision, victims don't have the time to FULLY decide what is best, Fight or Flight. This bill states....if you "perceive" your life or family members life to be in danger, you have the right to use deadly force."

All you have to prove, is that danger was perceived. Too many cases have been taken to court with Hindsight....and at the time of incident, hindsight was not an option.


More info here
Georgia Castle Doctrine bill becomes law! - THR

Now as far as myself, I practice my fast draw/rapid shots, at 30 feet. Anything under that, I'll drop you, anything further, I can probably get away.

While it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by six, it's best to fill a police report and let them look for them, then again, I had a guy pull a deer rifle on me once, it the middle of town @ 5am, on the way to work. It took the County Sheriff's Deputies 15 min to get there. I was carrying, and had pulled my gun, but did not shoot, because he didn't point it at me. He was just some hot-headed jerk, who was trying to act tough. It was dark, he could not see in my car, and because I wasn't trigger happy, I don't have to live with the thought of having killed someone, justified or not it's still death, and some kids didn't lose their dad, just because he's a moron. Sadly....even morons have the right to live. Sheriff Deputy....when he finally showed up, said that if I would have dropped him where he was (in front of my car) with the rifle in his hand, they would have had me back at work by lunch.
 
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