opinions on open carry

[trophyhunter]

As far as I go,I prefer to Carry Concealed. Out of Sight,Out of Mind. Less chance for some Anti-Gunner to Create an problem

 

[B2Tall]

Why attack at all? 99.5% of the American population walks around visibly carrying a gun. Only a fool would attack the .5% of the public visibly carrying guns when they have 99.5% of the rest of the population to choose from.

I'm sorry, but the "you'll be shot first" theory just does not prove to be true in real life. Is it possible to happen? Certainly. It's also possible to be killed by a flower pot pushed from a skyscraper balcony by a monkey.

In many cases yes, the BG will try to find an easier target. But if it's a determined BG, or a desperate BG, or a BG who decides he wants your gun in addition to whatever loot he might get, that pistol on your hip just made you a target of special significance.

I tell ya what O-4, let me put it in terms that might help a little more.

Let's say you're the CO of a warship.....a Burke-class DDG. You and your ship have been ordered to attack and sink or capture 3 targets. 2 of the targets are unarmed cargo ships and the other is a heavily armed escort....a modern enemy destroyer. Which of the 3 is going to be the focus of your initial attack??

It's going to be the heavily armed escort (i.e. the OCer) isn't it?? Take out the only real threat to your ship and you can deal with the other targets as you will without fear of counterattack because you've eliminated the threat.

 

[NavyLCDR]

In many cases yes, the BG will try to find an easier target. But if it's a determined BG, or a desperate BG, or a BG who decides he wants your gun in addition to whatever loot he might get, that pistol on your hip just made you a target of special significance.

I tell ya what O-4, let me put it in terms that might help a little more.

Let me put it to you, B2Tall in terms that might help a little more. Show us examples in real life where the open carrier was targeted first.

I'll start:
http://www.usacarry.com/open-carrier-arrested-after-scuffle/

Balance that against:
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

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and

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and then there's this one, with no indication whatsoever that his gun had anything at all to do with the armed robbery since armed robbery is rampant in that area anyway...

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[B2Tall]

Unless you have your strong side towards people they most likely won't even see it. And unless they are looking at it it seems that most don't even notice it right away at least.

Then it's not a very effective deterrent.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Remember, I never said that a visible gun will deter every robbery. But, if I am eating breakfast in a Waffle House, and the potential bad guys see my gun and choose to move on, like any bad guy with an ounce of intelligence would do, I have spared myself and my family the trauma of going through the robbery, possibly seeing me shoot someone and killing them, and the legal defense against a civil lawsuit should the family of the criminal decide to file one.

That's why I open carry.

If I am involved in a robbery situation.... it doesn't matter if my gun is concealed or not.... I am still going to be involved in the robbery situation and concealed carry did nothing to change that.

If I open carry, there is at least the possibility that I will deter the robbery.... if I conceal carry there is no possibility of deterring the robbery.

 

[B2Tall]

Let me put it to you, B2Tall in terms that might help a little more. Show us examples in real life where the open carrier was targeted first.

Answer the question O-4. What ship do you go after first and why.

Or if (hypothetically, of course) you're a crackhead who's jonesing bigtime and nothing is going to stop you from robbing the Kwiki-Mart even though there's an OCer waiting in line.......

Or you're a gangbanger who sees a guy walking in a parking lot with a nice, badass pistol on his hip and you want it.....along with the street cred that your homies will give you when you show them your new piece.....

Etc., etc., etc.

As far as examples of OCers being attacked first.....well, as far as I know there are no stats on such things. I just consider it common sense. That's what I'd do if I were a dertermined thug.

 

[B2Tall]

If I open carry, there is at least the possibility that I will deter the robbery.... if I conceal carry there is no possibility of deterring the robbery.

True enough, but if you OC and don't deter the robbery, the CCer will have the upper hand in most cases. That's the way I like it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Let's say you're the CO of a warship.....a Burke-class DDG. You and your ship have been ordered to attack and sink or capture 3 targets. 2 of the targets are unarmed cargo ships and the other is a heavily armed escort....a modern enemy destroyer. Which of the 3 is going to be the focus of your initial attack??

It would depend on a lot of circumstances and is not a cut and dried answer. First, what is the value of the cargo ships as compared to the threat posed by the escort. If the value of the cargo ships was high, then it would make more sense to conduct a swift and surprise attack on the cargo ships. The escort can only be in one place. Attack the cargo ships from the direction so that the cargo ships are between myself and the escort and the escort has to either run around the cargo ships or fire over/around them. I would also maneuver to keep the cargo ships between my vessel and the escort, like hostages.

It would also depend on the balance of firepower between the escort and the attacking ship. Is the attacking ship much more heavily armed than the escort, or does the escort have the advantage? If I were assigned to planning for the defense of the cargo ship, would I send out a warship disguised as a fishing vessel? Or if the cargo ships were carrying nuclear warheads would I escort them with an Aircraft Carrier or Battleship Group? Why would I escort them with the A/C Carrier or Battleship Group?... because that is called deterrence. When you have a target of value, you deter an attack against it. That's why large sums of money are guarded by armed and uniform security. If the element of surprise was the solution to everything, wouldn't they pay Joe Schmuck minimum wage to carry the money in a Volkswagen with highly trained covert escorts to defend against the criminals only after the attack has begun? But that isn't the way money is guarded is it?

Why are stores posted with signs that say You are under video surveillance? Why do alarm companies put signs in yards and stickers on windows? Why do cars with alarms have the flashing red light on the dash? Why do all these big companies put so much research and money into visible deterrence when they could just keep their defenses hidden and have the "element of surprise" in their side?

If I were going to attack the cargo ships from a submarine, I would not even bother with the escort ship. I would simply sneak past the escort and torpedo the cargo ships.

Deterrence is about showing the enemy that the potential gains that may be obtained from a target are not worth the potential consequences of starting the attack.

 

[Treo]

I tell ya what O-4, let me put it in terms that might help a little more.

Let's say you're the CO of a warship.....a Burke-class DDG. You and your ship have been ordered to attack and sink or capture 3 targets. 2 of the targets are unarmed cargo ships and the other is a heavily armed escort....a modern enemy destroyer. Which of the 3 is going to be the focus of your initial attack??

As the commander of a warship you have no choice but to carry out the orders given to you. Let's ask the same question but this time you're a Somali Pirate who are you going to attack?

 

[Treo]

True enough, but if you OC and don't deter the robbery, the CCer will have the upper hand in most cases. That's the way I like it.

How is drawing from under your shirt/coat/jacket/whatever against an opponent who already has a gun in his hand having the "upper hand"?

 

[B2Tall]

How is drawing from under your shirt/coat/jacket/whatever against an opponent who already has a gun in his hand having the "upper hand"?

Because he doesn't know I'm armed. I'm just another person in the Waffle House, 7-11, gas station, etc.

 

[B2Tall]

As the commander of a warship you have no choice but to carry out the orders given to you. Let's ask the same question but this time you're a Somali Pirate who are you going to attack?

Actually, I'll let LCDR enlighten you as to the discretion that the commander of a U.S. Navy warship has while at sea.

Your Somali pirate comparison doesn't apply here. My warship question is simply another version of what we're talking about - 2 people (you and a BG) both armed with a pistol. The ability to take out each other is the same (please....no hair-splitting over gun caliber, etc.). The bottom line is that whether you're a bad guy or a good guy you're going to take out the most imminent threat first, and somebody with a pistol on their hip is a bigger threat than someone without.

I think of worst case scenarios. Sure, there'll be plenty of times when a BG sees an OCer and decides to go elsewhere. That's great. But the WCS in that instance is that the BG, for any number of reasons, doesn't go elsewhere. In that case I believe the OCer with be the first person the BG deals with either by attempting to disarm the OCer or (God forbid) simply capping him. In that case I prefer to be the wolf-in-sheep's-clothing who's just blending in with the crowd.

We've been over this before. You go on being an OCing deterrent. I'll be the other alternative when the deterrent fails.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Actually, I'll let LCDR enlighten you as to the discretion that the commander of a U.S. Navy warship has while at sea.

Your Somali pirate comparison doesn't apply here.

You've got to be kidding, right? Really, haha, funny guy! Who is a criminal robbing a waffle house more like, a US warship operating under orders from the Commander in Chief or the Somali pirates? Seriously? The Somali pirate comparison doesn't apply? Give me a break.

I think of worst case scenarios. Sure, there'll be plenty of times when a BG sees an OCer and decides to go elsewhere. That's great. But the WCS in that instance is that the BG, for any number of reasons, doesn't go elsewhere. In that case I believe the OCer with be the first person the BG deals with either by attempting to disarm the OCer or (God forbid) simply capping him. In that case I prefer to be the wolf-in-sheep's-clothing who's just blending in with the crowd.

In everyday life, it's pretty, ummm...., I'll use the word impractical (being kind) to think only in terms of WCS. How many spare tires do you carry? Why only one? For one, your WCS of the open carrier being shot first because of the gun has NEVER been recorded to EVER happen. WCS so far has been the nut job grabbing the gun that I posted the link to earlier. How many times has that happened? ONCE. We'll never know how many personal attacks have been deterred because of the visible presence of the firearm because the bad guy isn't going to come up to us and say, "Lucky you, I was going to rob you until I saw your gun!" But the odds are much, much greater that crimes have been deterred over the odds of the open carrier being a target. I will stick with playing the odds in my favor of not having to use my gun because I have deterred the attack to begin with. It's, ummm... impractical to allow the fear of WCS dictate otherwise. At least in my neighborhood.

TREO,

If I was a Somali pirate, I would let that ship that has the .50 CALs or surface-to-surface missiles on deck or being escorted by a warship just sail on by. I would wait for the cargo ship that appeared, visibly, to be defenseless. Kind of a no-brainer.

 

[B2Tall]

You've got to be kidding, right? Really, haha, funny guy! Who is a criminal robbing a waffle house more like, a US warship operating under orders from the Commander in Chief or the Somali pirates? Seriously? The Somali pirate comparison doesn't apply? Give me a break.



In everyday life, it's pretty, ummm...., I'll use the word impractical (being kind) to think only in terms of WCS. How many spare tires do you carry? Why only one? For one, your WCS of the open carrier being shot first because of the gun has NEVER been recorded to EVER happen. WCS so far has been the nut job grabbing the gun that I posted the link to earlier. How many times has that happened? ONCE. We'll never know how many personal attacks have been deterred because of the visible presence of the firearm because the bad guy isn't going to come up to us and say, "Lucky you, I was going to rob you until I saw your gun!" But the odds are much, much greater that crimes have been deterred over the odds of the open carrier being a target. I will stick with playing the odds in my favor of not having to use my gun because I have deterred the attack to begin with. It's, ummm... impractical to allow the fear of WCS dictate otherwise. At least in my neighborhood.

TREO,

If I was a Somali pirate, I would let that ship that has the .50 CALs or surface-to-surface missiles on deck or being escorted by a warship just sail on by. I would wait for the cargo ship that appeared, visibly, to be defenseless. Kind of a no-brainer.

Wow. You guys really missed the point. I guess you just read what you want to read, interpret things literally, and ignore the subtle context. A gross overestimation on my point.

You just keep living in your best case scenario world. I'm beginning to think that "Punch" might have a point with his previous post.

 

[NavyLCDR]

We make one request. Show us in real life where the open carrier has been shot first in a robbery. That's all. One simple little request. It should be easy to fulfill.

 

[Axeanda45]

Now LCDR....., You know that he will be gone for years trying to find that non-existent info.. :blink: Oh, wait....


That was brilliant Sir! :dance3:

 

[B2Tall]

We make one request. Show us in real life where the open carrier has been shot first in a robbery. That's all. One simple little request. It should be easy to fulfill.

Google "police officer murdered" and you'll find plenty of instances of OCers (i.e. the police officer) who're killed by assailants even though they had pistols on their hips.

 

[jim fox]

I live in Texas and I'd like open carry of a handgun to be legal. (It is for long guns.) I doubt I'd ever show up at the local Kroger's with an openly carried handgun, but it'd be nice to be able to walk the quarter mile up to my mail box without worrying about a cover garment.

Where I grew up open carry was (theoretically) legal - if you wanted the hassle. No one ever did unless they were hunting. Concealed carry was illegal, but I knew a fair number of folks who did.

My theory? If open carry is illegal, it gives LEO types one more "hassle factor" if your "concealment" slips.

 

[Axeanda45]

I live in Texas and I'd like open carry of a handgun to be legal. (It is for long guns.) I doubt I'd ever show up at the local Kroger's with an openly carried handgun, but it'd be nice to be able to walk the quarter mile up to my mail box without worrying about a cover garment.

Where I grew up open carry was (theoretically) legal - if you wanted the hassle. No one ever did unless they were hunting. Concealed carry was illegal, but I knew a fair number of folks who did.

My theory? If open carry is illegal, it gives LEO types one more "hassle factor" if your "concealment" slips.

If your mailbox is on your property, you CAN open carry to check it (open carry is legal in Texas on your own property)

 

[Axeanda45]

B2, you know damn good and well that your example of POLICE officers being targeted is outright wrong... they were NOT targeted because they were open carrying, they were targeted because they were cops....


Your stance/argument is so weak you have to resort to bull-crap/smoke and mirrors to try to support it... Pathetic