Oklahoma Open Carry. What are your thoughts?

[windowkb]

Hello Everyone,
I am a SDA instructor in Oklahoma and currently teach courses with my partner. We have a combined 14 years in the special forces community and still actively participate in military operations. We have been training foreign military units and domestic military units previously and decided to become SDA instructors part time in order to give back to local gun enthusiast. Neither one of us are originally from Oklahoma, so we have some bias towards the open carry scene. What are your thoughts on open carry?



Interest in Oklahoma pistol courses? Corsec Tactical

 

[BluesStringer]

Hello Everyone,

....What are your thoughts on open carry?

I open carry every day. Obviously, for me, it's the best choice. I believe there's deterrent value in the practice. Not without some (minor amount) of risk I suppose, but the potential that my visible weapon will deter an attack before it ever commences outweighs the certainty that if I conceal, I will look just like every other potential victim. It's not foolproof, I'm just playing the odds after much thoughtful consideration. No politics in my decision. No statements, except to those who would otherwise assume I was a good, defenseless victim.

What do you mean when you say, "...so we have some bias towards the open carry scene?" Biased for or against, and what does not being from OK have to do with that bias?

Blues

 

[Firefighterchen]

I would first suggest going to the open carry sub forum, there is a lot of good information there.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Firefighterchen]

I'm plagiarizing my own material...I open carry for the tactical element of deterrence, it's an advantage because:

1 You will not be targeted first, if at all. (added since this seems to be a primary argument against, and this argument has no evidence to back it up)
2 Its a faster draw.
3 Its more comfortable.
4 It deters a crime before it happens.
5 It shows the public firearms are not evil.
6 It shows the public good people carry firearms.
7 Its my right as a living soul, and the 2A says what the government can not do, not what I can do.
8 I get the opportunity to educate more people than a cc.
9 I can buy pants that fit me. No need to dress around the gun.
10 I don't worry about printing.
11 I can always conceal it if I need to.

You will find a great amount of information on here, but you can also go to opencarry.org, they have a lot more on open carry specifically.

Link Removed

Link Removed

Link Removed

Link Removed

Link Removed

Link Removed

Link Removed

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[indyyy]

As many of you know who've read my posts over the past few months, I'm fairly new to carrying so I'll play the devil's advocate on a couple of firefighter's points and you can tell me why I'm wrong:

You will not be targeted first, if at all.

Criminals can't buy guns legally. So, if you open carry, would there not be the temptation to rob and maybe even kill you for your gun as well as your wallet ?

It shows the public firearms are not evil.
It shows the public good people carry firearms.

If you come into contact with them regularly and chat with them this would be true. But stranger who you walk past or beside have no idea if you're a good or bad guy. And many won't ask because they fear you might be a bad guy. If open carry were more common and we saw people other than cops and bad guys carrying on a regular basis I think your statement would be true. But as it is we're kind of brainwashed by tv and movies to think that bad guys and cops are the ones with guns.

 

[tcox4freedom]

SC is not currently an OC state. But, I hope that will change soon. (However, I have OC'ed in my distant past.)

The only thing I can say is read all the accounts where a CC'er had to use their firearm to defend themselves. Then, compare that to any cases you can find where an OC'er had to call on the use of their firearm in a SD situation. If you're honest with yourself, you'll see that the "FACTS of the DATA", point to "truth" about CC'ing being more dangerous than OC'ing.

The bottom line is: It's the gun you "can't" see that you need to be worried about!

I really don't concern myself with someone carrying a firearm that I can see. I look for the guy acting strange; but trying to appear normal.

Welcome to the forum!

-

 

[Firefighterchen]

As many of you know who've read my posts over the past few months, I'm fairly new to carrying so I'll play the devil's advocate on a couple of firefighter's points and you can tell me why I'm wrong:

Here's my opinions on the counter points.

Criminals can't buy guns legally. So, if you open carry, would there not be the temptation to rob and maybe even kill you for your gun as well as your wallet ?

Criminals make bad choices, not dumb choices. What would be easier, attempting to rob an armed person or buy one illegally for a couple hundred bucks? Would you risk your life if you knew you could buy one illegal somewhere else?

The temptation will always be there, but looking unarmed is also a temptation. One of these two have to defend themselves a lot more than the other, and we are always playing the odds. I feel oc puts those odds in my favor.

If you come into contact with them regularly and chat with them this would be true. But stranger who you walk past or beside have no idea if you're a good or bad guy. And many won't ask because they fear you might be a bad guy. If open carry were more common and we saw people other than cops and bad guys carrying on a regular basis I think your statement would be true. But as it is we're kind of brainwashed by tv and movies to think that bad guys and cops are the ones with guns.

I thought the same thing before I started open carrying. Since then, everyday proves that mindset wrong. Most people don't see it, they aren't looking for a victim. Some people do come up to talk. Those that don't talk, look at it and keep on with their day. 99% are good encounters. While a good portion ask if I'm a police officer, the People aren't as brainwashed as you think, and when I tell them I'm not they are even more interested and less brainwashed. Concealed carrying does nothing to help that.

How do you know if it's a good guy or bad guy? The good guy will have his gun in a holster or pointed in a safe direction. The bad guy will be pointing it at you.

When I concealed I never talked with anyone about gun rights. Since I open carried, I lost count. Everyday I walk outside my front door I represent the 2A, and in a world with the MDA and MAIG, there has to be an opposition or else our Rights will be compromised away.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[indyyy]

The only thing I can say is read all the accounts where a CC'er had to use their firearm to defend themselves. Then, compare that to any cases you can find where an OC'er had to call on the use of their firearm in a SD situation.

I'm not sure this point is very valid, because far more gun owners conceal carry than open carry. Because this is so it makes sense that you would see many more instances of concealed guns being used in SD situations. I do recall this story about a open carry gun being stolen at gun point though:

Link Removed

This is not meant as an argument against open carry - either is fine with me -just showing that open carrying can have it's problems as well as concealed carry. This kid was not to bright, but if you surf the net a bit you can find other stories. And, obviously, cops open carry and get shot at - but I know you weren't talking about cops.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I'm not sure this point is very valid, because far more gun owners conceal carry than open carry. Because this is so it makes sense that you would see many more instances of concealed guns being used in SD situations. I do recall this story about a open carry gun being stolen at gun point though:

Link Removed

This is not meant as an argument against open carry - either is fine with me -just showing that open carrying can have it's problems as well as concealed carry. This kid was not to bright, but if you surf the net a bit you can find other stories. And, obviously, cops open carry and get shot at - but I know you weren't talking about cops.

Just like the rebuttal thread I created, situational awareness and being out at 2am was the problem. Open carriers aren't immune, but there have only been a handful of oc that have been chosen as victims. Even with there being more concealed carriers, the percentage of them being chosen far outweighs the percentage of open carriers being chosen.

Neither method of carry is the end all...but it seems when an oc defend oc, cc snobs immediately claim we are attacking cc. As I said in another thread, it's not the disagreement we have a problem with, it's the misinformation, lies, and myths.

About police, why do you think they open carry? Why do you think they are shot at?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[tcox4freedom]

I'm not sure this point is very valid, because far more gun owners conceal carry than open carry. Because this is so it makes sense that you would see many more instances of concealed guns being used in SD situations. I do recall this story about a open carry gun being stolen at gun point though:

Link Removed

This is not meant as an argument against open carry - either is fine with me -just showing that open carrying can have it's problems as well as concealed carry. This kid was not to bright, but if you surf the net a bit you can find other stories. And, obviously, cops open carry and get shot at - but I know you weren't talking about cops.

Well you found "one".
I see an average of 4-6 "CC'er" incidents every single month in the NRA magazine's "Armed Citizen" column. It's been that way for the 30+ yrs I've been reading it. S, I like the OC odds better I think.

Doesn't stand to reason that if "OC" was so much more dangerous than "CC", you would read or hear more about OC SD incidents?

-

 

[indyyy]

Doesn't stand to reason that if "OC" was so much more dangerous than "CC", you would read or hear more about OC SD incidents?

I'm not arguing whether one is safer or more dangerous - in my opinion there's probably not much difference whether one open carries or conceals and I'll even concede that open carry will deter some bad guys. At the same time, if I were open carrying and a couple of bad guys walking in the opposite direction on the sidewalk pulled guns when they were 5 feet away and said 'hand over your gun and your wallet or we shoot and take them from you' I would probably do so.

My point was simply that alot more people conceal and so that's mostly what would be seen in SD situations - i.e. the stats in Indiana is that in 2013 about half a million people had licenses to carry while the state population is about 6.5 million. If a third of the population is under 18, that means about 1 out of 10 adults has a license. Seems high to me, but that's what the stats say.

And I've mentioned before that I've never seen any one open carrying other than police in the past 20 years or so that I've lived in Indianapolis (I did walk across the street on a farm with a guy who was carrying a rifle to shoot a possum a dog had treed if you want to count that as one- but he wasn't carrying for SD). The math isn't perfect, but to me this would suggest that maybe 1 out of 1000 or less open carries vs conceals. Not saying it's better to conceal - blame the media and government for making most citizens think guns are evil, but it seems to me that's about what the stats are and have been for the past few years (if not 20 or 30 years).

Firefighter actually made some good points in his prior post for open carrying and you guys might even talk me into it. :yu: Oh, and I'm usually home before 7 or 8 pm, so I won't be out on the street corner @ 2 am showing folks my gun lol. While googling that incident I did see something about a guy being robbed of his gun back in 2010. The kid who got his stolen @ 2 am was only a month or two ago and someone posted it in another thread is why I remembered it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Criminals can't buy guns legally. So, if you open carry, would there not be the temptation to rob and maybe even kill you for your gun as well as your wallet ?

Criminals can't buy guns legally, but they can buy them illegally. Drug users can't buy drugs legally so do they go around stealing drugs from drug dealers? It's much easier and safer to steal money from seemingly unarmed people and buy what they want in illegal purchases than to steal the item directly at high risk of getting killed doing it. Most criminals do not want to get shot at any more than anyone else does, plus gunfire tends to attract police attention.

As far as public relations, I believe that daily, routine open carry is good public relations. At least 99% of the public never reacts to my gun, at least visibly. Of the 1% that do react - 9 out of 10 of those reactions are positive, or at a minimum educational. Last reaction I had was in an elevator at a hotel. Lady in the elevator asked what was the requirement for carrying the gun in WA. I told her no permit required to open carry like I was, but I did have a Concealed Pistol License which allowed me to conceal it if I wanted to, and that the CPL was required to keep it loaded in a vehicle. She explained she was retired LEO from California and thanks for the information. I've gotten everything from thumbs up signs to people coming up and thanking me for exercising my rights.

Of the very few negative reactions I have had, 4 out of 5 of those have been from people who can't resist the urge to tell me they conceal their guns and so should I.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I'm not arguing whether one is safer or more dangerous - in my opinion there's probably not much difference whether one open carries or conceals and I'll even concede that open carry will deter some bad guys.

Deter most bad guys.

At the same time, if I were open carrying and a couple of bad guys walking in the opposite direction on the sidewalk pulled guns when they were 5 feet away and said 'hand over your gun and your wallet or we shoot and take them from you' I would probably do so.

Would you not do the same if you were concealing?

My point was simply that alot more people conceal and so that's mostly what would be seen in SD situations - i.e. the stats in Indiana is that in 2013 about half a million people had licenses to carry while the state population is about 6.5 million. If a third of the population is under 18, that means about 1 out of 10 adults has a license. Seems high to me, but that's what the stats say.

And I've mentioned before that I've never seen any one open carrying other than police in the past 20 years or so that I've lived in Indianapolis (I did walk across the street on a farm with a guy who was carrying a rifle to shoot a possum a dog had treed if you want to count that as one- but he wasn't carrying for SD). The math isn't perfect, but to me this would suggest that maybe 1 out of 1000 or less open carries vs conceals.

Even with a 1 to 1000 ratio, you would expect to see for every 1000 cc being chosen an open carrier gets chosen...except you don't see that.

Not saying it's better to conceal - blame the media and government for making most citizens think guns are evil, but it seems to me that's about what the stats are and have been for the past few years (if not 20 or 30 years).

Most citizens don't think guns are evil. I've never seen any starts to say otherwise, and personal experience has proven to me most people like guns.

Firefighter actually made some good points in his prior post for open carrying and you guys might even talk me into it. :yu: Oh, and I'm usually home before 7 or 8 pm, so I won't be out on the street corner @ 2 am showing folks my gun lol. While googling that incident I did see something about a guy being robbed of his gun back in 2010. The kid who got his stolen @ 2 am was only a month or two ago and someone posted it in another thread is why I remembered it.

You will find a handful of oc being chosen, over the past decade...you can find a handful of cc being chosen last week, the week before, this week, and next week.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[indyyy]

Would you not do the same if you were concealing?

If I were concealing, the bad guy would likely just demand I give them my wallet because they wouldn't see the gun as with open carry. Which, in my view is one of the pluses for concealing. With open carry they know you have a gun, and that theirs is aimed at you while yours is still in it's holster. Again, open carry should deter most. But if it doesn't, it gives the bad guy the advantage because he's the one who would draw first wanting both your wallet and gun.

 

[Firefighterchen]

If I were concealing, the bad guy would likely just demand I give them my wallet because they wouldn't see the gun as with open carry. Which, in my view is one of the pluses for concealing. With open carry they know you have a gun, and that theirs is aimed at you while yours is still in it's holster. Again, open carry should deter most. But if it doesn't, it gives the bad guy the advantage because he's the one who would draw first wanting both your wallet and gun.

Do you really think he won't have his gun drawn and aimed at you when you're concealing?

Not only is the gun aimed at you and your gun is still in a holster, it's under a piece of clothing and tucked down.

Deterring most is my goal, because if I'm even chosen one I'm screwed...and being chosen is the problem, after that it's a crap shoot either way...


Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[indyyy]

Do you really think he won't have his gun drawn and aimed at you when you're concealing?

I understand what you're saying, but you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that if a couple of bad guys see you carrying and decide to rob you, they will probably demand you give them your gun as well as your money once they pull their gun(s) on you.

If your gun is concealed, they are likely to demand you give them your money, not knowing you have a gun. I'm not suggesting you pull your gun in either instance - in the first case I would hand over my wallet and gun because they have a gun or two already aimed at me. In the second they would only get my wallet.

Or in the case of the kid who got his gun taken from him at 2 am, it looks like they only took his gun and didn't ask him for his money.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I understand what you're saying, but you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that if a couple of bad guys see you carrying and decide to rob you, they will probably demand you give them your gun as well as your money once they pull their gun(s) on you.

If your gun is concealed, they are likely to demand you give them your money, not knowing you have a gun. I'm not suggesting you pull your gun in either instance - in the first case I would hand over my wallet and gun because they have a gun or two already aimed at me. In the second they would only get my wallet.

Or in the case of the kid who got his gun taken from him at 2 am, it looks like they only took his gun and didn't ask him for his money.

I understand. How many times have you heard of an open carrier having his gun stolen? I can recall 3, maybe 5 with a stretch on a couple.

How many times have you heard of a cc being robbed? Too many to count.

So while I agree, they possibly could get the gun, it's statistically insignificant.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Niland]

It's sad to read through all this. It's not you guys. You all have wonderful and thoughtful insight on each of your positions and I respect that. It's the non gun public that makes me sad.

I totally agree with the OC crowd that does it everyday as a personal protection choice. The vocal OC minority that are stirring things up need to cool their heels. I tend to CC because many in the population don't get it. They don't want to understand it. They just want to pretend that they live in a safe place, and seeing a gun on my hip forces them to confront a reality where a violent act could happen to the them at any time. Some will go to great lengths to protect their delusion, and that unnerves me in terms of making the OC choice.

That said, I salute those that do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Firefighterchen]

It's sad to read through all this. It's not you guys. You all have wonderful and thoughtful insight on each of your positions and I respect that. It's the non gun public that makes me sad.

I totally agree with the OC crowd that does it everyday as a personal protection choice. The vocal OC minority that are stirring things up need to cool their heels. I tend to CC because many in the population don't get it. They don't want to understand it. They just want to pretend that they live in a safe place, and seeing a gun on my hip forces them to confront a reality where a violent act could happen to the them at any time. Some will go to great lengths to protect their delusion, and that unnerves me in terms of making the OC choice.

That said, I salute those that do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

IMO, even the most vocal open carriers never had a problem for years. The general public didn't mind the open carry rallies, nothing was stirred up...until the MDA.

That being said, how is it the open carriers fault? When the MDA, MAIG, Everytown..etc go after concealed carry, should we blame concealed carriers?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Niland]

IMO, even the most vocal open carriers never had a problem for years. The general public didn't mind the open carry rallies, nothing was stirred up...until the MDA.

That being said, how is it the open carriers fault? When the MDA, MAIG, Everytown..etc go after concealed carry, should we blame concealed carriers?

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Agreed,

I'm talking about the dip wads that go out with a sport rifle slung and march back and forth waiting for an officer to respond to a complaint so they can make a YouTube video of how the police did them wrong.

I'm all for rallies for general awareness.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk