New member scoping out Illinois CCW value vs. risk

[StripedOne]

Hello USA Carry, glad to be here. First of all, as many of you may know, Illinois recently passed CCW laws, and is accepting applications to carry. I plan to apply for this permit, so I may protect myself and my family better.
There's several potential snags though, that truly give me pause. That's where I'd like your opinions and thoughts, the opinions and thoughts of people who I presume to be experienced in carry, and even the legal aspects if I strike gold.
Cost is the least of my problems. Money is relatively easy to come by, and can usually be replaced. The real threat that worries me, is the legal issues. Some background on myself before we get to those issues.
I'm a large guy, tall and strong built. I tend to keep a very proper appearance in every way. Military cut hair, shaved beard, casual yet conservative clothing, and overall looking like what I imagine an upstanding citizen to look like. Definitely not a gangbanger. I generally consider myself mostly peaceful, and prefer to end a confrontation in as nonviolent a manner as possible. As an extension of this, if I get my permit, the only time I'd be going for my weapon would be once the point of no return was well behind me, and lethal force was the only option I'd be leaving without a bodybag, or on the way to the ER at best.
Now the bad part of me. I have a slight problem explaining scenarios, especially when under stress. With the way I forget parts of sentences mid sentence, I worry that even a good and understanding police officer could get the impression I'm making things up. If it's a bad police officer who is against self defense, all the worse.

Now on to the legal issues that worry me. In theory, Illinois has some relatively reasonable CCW laws; compared to the blanket ban we had before at least. In practice though, I'm uncertain on whether or not local police departments are open to the idea of self defense, or if the local prosecutors are known for inflicting maximum legal damage on someone who only wished to protect his and his family's lives with reasonable force.
With my problem explaining things under stress, my fear is that I could be seen as the bad guy in a lawful self defense situation. I've had a minor, yet negative police experience before. While I left with no record stain, I was left with a bit of a fear of police officers, and especially prosecutors. While I intend to cooperate with the assistance of an attorney, the legal battle is something that worries me. Again with the prosecutors, I worry about the small things I say being picked apart syllable by syllable, and twisted like a slinky into something painting me as a despicable example of a human being. My family is not in a position to fight a lengthy legal battle, and I don't want to either end up with my family in ruin, or end up with me in a prison for lawful self defense.
To alleviate the potential legal issues, I do plan to purchase an ultimate membership with Second Call Defense [If the company name doesn't belong there, moderators, please just edit it out and send me a PM. Thanks.] which as far as I can see, offers some tempting benefits and compensations to help protect me from the legal issues that may arise from such a situation. Benefits include bail assistance, attorney retention compensation, criminal defense case compensation, and even civil court case compensation.

Now I apologize for this lengthy post, that may even seen repetitive and even afraid to some of you, but I figured this was one of the better places to get such advice. The advice I seek, is anything. Anything from why this all may be a stupid or a bright idea, any reasons I shouldn't have to worry unless I do something stupid on a galactic level, or anything else you can come up with.

Thanks, StripedOne

 

[XD40scinNC]

A bit of fear of police is a good thing and will serve you better than trusting them and believing they have your best interests in mind.

Under stress everyone is subject to saying things that can be used against them, even though they are totally benign. If you do have to use your weapon to defend yourself or family, say nothing without a lawyer. Just tell them you are too scared and upset to talk at the moment, and get a lawyer. After all you have just been in a fight for your life, or the life of a loved one.

Keep in mind that while everything you say to the cops could be used against you, NOTHING you say to the cops will ever be used in your defense, nothing.

You mentioned you are a big guy, I'm going to take that as big and strong and physically capable. And how does that help you against someone with a gun? I've seen a number of posts from people that feel because they can defeat most people in a physical altercation that the use of a firearm might be seen as unnecessary or excessive force. There is a reason the also issue firearms to the biggest and fittest of cops.

Get your permit, and carry, but bookmark this thread and revisit it in 6 month and you will probably be wondering 'what the hell was I thinking'.

And ask yourself, would you rather be carried by 6 or judged by 12?

PS. Welcome to the forums

 

[StripedOne]

Get your permit, and carry, but bookmark this thread and revisit it in 6 month and you will probably be wondering 'what the hell was I thinking'.

And ask yourself, would you rather be carried by 6 or judged by 12?

Good to be here. I do get a hint of ominous intent when I read the part about bookmarking the page. Is this intended to be a "What the hell was I thinking?" in a good way, or a bad way?

The part about nothing will be used in my defense is, as far as I have studied, sadly true. As I understand it, things you say may be used against you as evidence. The moment it's used for you, even by the witnessing officer, it becomes 'hearsay' and not allowed as evidence. It's things like this why I have a fear and some distrust of the legal system. I swear... There should be high school courses, or at least college courses, on how to defend yourself in legal scenarios. If they exist, then I'm probably going to be looking into taking that course.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Good to be here. I do get a hint of ominous intent when I read the part about bookmarking the page. Is this intended to be a "What the hell was I thinking?" in a good way, or a bad way?

The part about nothing will be used in my defense is, as far as I have studied, sadly true. As I understand it, things you say may be used against you as evidence. The moment it's used for you, even by the witnessing officer, it becomes 'hearsay' and not allowed as evidence. It's things like this why I have a fear and some distrust of the legal system. I swear... There should be high school courses, or at least college courses, on how to defend yourself in legal scenarios. If they exist, then I'm probably going to be looking into taking that course.

I fully think that after you carry for six months you will look back and wonder why you were questioning where you should or not. There is a peace of mind knowing you have the resources to not be a victim.

 

[zonie77]

Hi and welcome. I left Chicago in 1977 and moved to AZ. The first time I went back (only 3 mos later) I kept thinking "Why can I carry a gun in AZ where I don't need one, but not in Chicago where I do need one????"

You don't have to apologize for the length of your post, it's worse when people say "Should I carry? What gun should I buy?" with NO other info.

You have some real concerns being there. Many of your cops cannot or will not understand a legally armed citizen. Gradually attitudes will change but it will take a long time. We have some wild cops here too, luckily I haven't run into any, the ones I have interacted with have been really cool about the gun(s) even if they still gave me a ticket! LOL.

You should look into more advanced courses after you get the CCW, every class I took taught me something valuable. In Phoenix you can take a Criminal Justice class that consists of two days of draw and fire (Glendale Comm Coll under AJS). Out of resident cost might be too high but for instate it's the biggest bargain I've seen, and it's taught mostly by County sheriff deputies. We have plenty of gun shops and groups that give classes, most are similar. Eventually you will have that there but it will take a while. If you plan to come out to a gun friendly state investigate the classes available. You will do things that you can't do at a public range and that you won't think of doing on your own.

It would be wise to look for a gun friendly lawyer before you need one. Depending on the class you may make some contacts or get some advice, be cautious what you believe from what you hear. The not saying anything until you talk to a lawyer is really good advice. What XD40 said is absolutely true.

There is so much to learn, get started! Another thing, carry a lot, especially when you're just doing ordinary things. You want to get used to the gun and not be nervous you have it. Another thing... When you read forums remember that state laws vary, people will post something that doesn't apply to IL so make sure you keep that in mind.

Happy Carrying!

 

[telpinaro]

Just because...

Not talking to cops can be done very politely, along the lines of: "I'm sorry officer, I prefer not to talk right now; I was afraid for my life not ten minutes ago. I'll be happy to cooperate when my lawyer is present." That way you sound like a decent guy who just went through a horrifying experience, rather than the bad guy who refuses to talk without his lawyer.

 

[r1derbike]

I am the complainant (you were attacked), I will cooperate with police fully in 24 hours after I've consulted counsel.

The above is what I would say after making sure the police knew I was in fear for my life from the attacker.

Unfortunately, self-defense deadly force might mean arrest and jail, until the facts are on the table.

Sometimes, the deadly force is so justifiable, no charges will be leveled against the victim.

There's no way to gauge how police will respond, so put your gun down, raise your arms so you are not perceived as the scumbag who tried to kill you. It's helpful if you or a family member is talking to the 911 dispatcher about what you are wearing and what the attacker is wearing. This will get relayed to the police before they arrive.

Having to use deadly force to save your life will turn your world upside-down. There could be charges, there could be a civil suit, it may ruin you financially and emotionally.

Every bullet that leaves our barrels has a lawyer behind it. I'd consult with an appropriate attorney about lethal force issues, before something happens, so you know what to expect.

Peruse the forum(s) about self-defense legal aspects.

There's lots of help, search is your friend, and welcome to the forums!

 

[vernsimpson]

When you take the course ask your Instructor for some names of Attorneys. It may be to soon for the Instructors to have that info so I would then call the NRA. You should join the NRA and other Pro Gun groups because if not for them IL would still be a Non Carry state!

I was born and raised in Southern IL and then moved to the Chicago area. I know that there are many lawyers in the Chicago area that I would not trust. Which is why I say ask your Instructor and/or the NRA for a Attorney who be good.

 

[Peggy Reist]

Although I wouldn't normally recommend it, you might consider getting insurance that will help in your defense if you were to shoot someone.
Meanwhile, here's an article you might benefit from. It's Florida specific, but Illinois is probably no more enlightened.

Self-Defense Shooting and Disparate Force - USA Carry

 

[Popeye2]

All good questions and answers. I was born and raised and currently live in central Illinois.

Not only my opinion but I would say at least 80% of those I questioned about what to expect after a justified self defence incident, are of the mind that we WILL be going to jail. Maybe only overnight, or until bail is arranged, but a trip 'downtown' will be made. The fact that it was justified, in ones home, etc, etc, doesn't matter. Neither does my status as an upright citizen nor my employment as a Dept. of Illinios Correctional Officer, nor my retired military status.
[Maybe if I were the state's attorney, or chief of police I could avoid being locked up, but I am not so it is a moot point.] Maybe after numerous arrests, court outcomes and years of time this will all be worked out. I don't want to be first to find out however.

Before deciding to conceal carry I would [and have] became a member of USCCA and their 'Shield' insurance. Second is to find and talk to an attorney
about the possible aftermath of an incident, and introduce him to the Shield insurance. Get his business card and numbers. Don't loose it. Join the NRA if you
feel it would benefit you.

Also, carefully weigh the benefits of concealed carry vs. transporting a weapon. Think fanny pack and the laws agoverning both.

And last but not least, watch this Youtube video of a professor about interacting with the law. Much can be learned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Good luck in your search and God bless.

 

[BC1]

I think you'll be just fine. Doesn't matter if the police are for or against guns. They must obey the law. If there's a problem just remain quiet/silent until you aren't nervous or can get a lawyer involved.

 

[StripedOne]

Popeye, I looked at the USCCA SHIELD insurance. Between that one and the Second Call Defense, I'm leaning towards Second Call. The civil case compensation the attorney retention compensation, instant bail fund wire, the SHTF plan, and even the witness coordination. Everything in the ultimate plan exceeds that of the highest USCCA plan for just a little extra. In my opinion, a little more a month isn't a problem. Especially if it significantly improves legal survivability.

Another question on the topic though. I've never been on the financial side of legal courts. How much does it usually cost to get through the average criminal court case? That's the part I'm the most afraid of. I understand it varies between attorneys, but I'd figure there's a ballpark estimate.

 

[StripedOne]

I think you'll be just fine. Doesn't matter if the police are for or against guns. They must obey the law. If there's a problem just remain quiet/silent until you aren't nervous or can get a lawyer involved.

As much as I wish it was that black and white, I find it's not. You could be as right as possible, you could have been seconds away from being brutally murdered. If the officer has any reason to suspect foul play on my part, even if it's only in his mind, and I fail to convince him that it was a justified shooting, it's still on me until the attorneys can fix it. For some police, a civilian with a firearm in general is enough cause to suspect 'foul play'.
At least, that's my understanding of it. If this ever happens, I do have full intent to follow advice of another member here. "Officer, I was fearing for my life not even ten minutes ago. I'd like to exercise my fifth amendment rights to silence until I have spoken to my attorney. After that, I will cooperate."

 

[BC1]

As much as I wish it was that black and white, I find it's not. You could be as right as possible, you could have been seconds away from being brutally murdered. If the officer has any reason to suspect foul play on my part, even if it's only in his mind, and I fail to convince him that it was a justified shooting, it's still on me until the attorneys can fix it. For some police, a civilian with a firearm in general is enough cause to suspect 'foul play'.
At least, that's my understanding of it. If this ever happens, I do have full intent to follow advice of another member here. "Officer, I was fearing for my life not even ten minutes ago. I'd like to exercise my fifth amendment rights to silence until I have spoken to my attorney. After that, I will cooperate."

I strongly recommend you DON'T try to convince a LEO that a shooting is justified. You'll talk yourself right into those cuffs. You don't need to mention the fifth. You were attacked and feared for your life. Nothing else other than name and address without an attorney. Expect to be arrested.

 

[StripedOne]

Right, not convincing them is the right move. The attorney will do that.
Also, in regards to not mentioning the fifth, I've found rulings stating that keeping silent without a word is a bad move. They say that you must explicitly invoke the fifth, otherwise your silence will be taken as trying to hide something.

 

[vernsimpson]

I think you'll be just fine. Doesn't matter if the police are for or against guns. They must obey the law. If there's a problem just remain quiet/silent until you aren't nervous or can get a lawyer involved.

I do not want to fight with you on this but I think you are wrong on thinking that the IL police HAVE to follow the law. Google how many IL politicians have been convicted of a crime. IL has had 4 Governors in prison!! If he lives or goes into Chicago he should be VERY careful. I have not lived there for 30 years but back then the LAST thing you wanted was to get picked up and taken to a Chicago Police Station. They would beat the crap out of you and say you resisted arrest. There was a story about the Chicago Chief of Police saying something about how they would treat CC'ers. I have forgotten exactly what he said but it was not good for anyone who was carrying legally!

Chicago and Northern IL is very corrupt and I feel very sorry for whoever has to use his weapon in self defense. Their life will not ever be the same!

 

[StripedOne]

I do not want to fight with you on this but I think you are wrong on thinking that the IL police HAVE to follow the law. Google how many IL politicians have been convicted of a crime. IL has had 4 Governors in prison!! If he lives or goes into Chicago he should be VERY careful. I have not lived there for 30 years but back then the LAST thing you wanted was to get picked up and taken to a Chicago Police Station. They would beat the crap out of you and say you resisted arrest. There was a story about the Chicago Chief of Police saying something about how they would treat CC'ers. I have forgotten exactly what he said but it was not good for anyone who was carrying legally!

Chicago and Northern IL is very corrupt and I feel very sorry for whoever has to use his weapon in self defense. Their life will not ever be the same!

It's reasons like this that discourage me from wanting to carry... Police and lawyers are a bigger threat to you than even a mass shooter it seems. The shooter can at least be dropped with a few rounds. The police, you can't even video tape them anymore, and the lawyers have the force of law behind their every word. If you fight either of those, you become the bad guy.
Fortunately, I found something saying the state attorney in my county (McHenry County's Louis Bianchi) claims to be pro second amendment and in favour of citizens being able to defend themselves. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen.
Maybe I'll get my CCW, then wait and watch to see if any worrying legal cases arise before I start to actually bring my weapon with me.

 

[Popeye2]

Popeye, I looked at the USCCA SHIELD insurance. Between that one and the Second Call Defense, I'm leaning towards Second Call. The civil case compensation the attorney retention compensation, instant bail fund wire, the SHTF plan, and even the witness coordination. Everything in the ultimate plan exceeds that of the highest USCCA plan for just a little extra. In my opinion, a little more a month isn't a problem. Especially if it significantly improves legal survivability.

Another question on the topic though. I've never been on the financial side of legal courts. How much does it usually cost to get through the average criminal court case? That's the part I'm the most afraid of. I understand it varies between attorneys, but I'd figure there's a ballpark estimate.

OOPS....upon reflection I sound like a salesman. I am not, its just one of many insurance companies out there offering their product. This is just the one I chose, it is up to you to choose the one you prefer.

As to the question as to how much does it cost? Well, the cheapest one is one that doesn't happen. But, when it does happen the question becomes how much does it take to convince the jury of your innoccence...and how bad you wish to stay out of prison. Normally that sum is one that makes you lean back and take a deep breath.
The ballpark estimate? You would be best asking that of the attorney you choose. Don't fail to do your due diligance on his/her history and win/loss ratio of similar cases.

On as side note, what did you think of the Utube video?

 

[StripedOne]

OOPS....upon reflection I sound like a salesman. I am not, its just one of many insurance companies out there offering their product. This is just the one I chose, it is up to you to choose the one you prefer.

As to the question as to how much does it cost? Well, the cheapest one is one that doesn't happen. But, when it does happen the question becomes how much does it take to convince the jury of your innoccence...and how bad you wish to stay out of prison. Normally that sum is one that makes you lean back and take a deep breath.
The ballpark estimate? You would be best asking that of the attorney you choose. Don't fail to do your due diligance on his/her history and win/loss ratio of similar cases.

On as side note, what did you think of the Utube video?

I had actually seen this video before. Very useful to me. The bottom line always comes out to "Don't speak to the police, let your lawyer do that for you." It's truly sad that we can't safely trust and rely on police to truly look out for our safety.

 

[BluesStringer]

It's reasons like this that discourage me from wanting to carry... Police and lawyers are a bigger threat to you than even a mass shooter it seems.

You are of course right. Only you can decide for yourself if you're up to facing the ramifications of possibly shooting someone. You are right not to take the decision lightly, but there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

One, a right not exercised because of fear of governmental reprisals is no different than a right being outlawed. The powers that be don't have to go to the trouble of either passing gun control laws, or going rogue and imposing "laws" that don't exist on you if you're going to cave under just the thought that actually owning your rights is too much trouble, or too scary to contemplate.

Two, the people that have been fighting in the background to get IL to (finally) show some semblance of upholding the 2A deserve your support for their efforts. Get the permit. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to carry everywhere you go, and it can be legitimately said that you shouldn't carry if you're not confident enough in your right to do so without being completely distracted by the slight chance that things might to go sideways because of that decision.

I think you've been told two things that are very likely true; XD40cinNC said that in six months it would become natural for you to carry without worrying about it like you are now, and BC1 said that if you ever are involved in a defensive shooting, expect to be arrested. But if you were to stay as distracted as you are now about the remote possibility that you will get caught up in life-destroying legal trouble because of your decision to carry for self-defense, you're not likely to develop the confidence necessary to ever be able to draw your weapon when you need it anyway. All manner of negative consequences flow from that eventuality, such as the high potential for your own weapon to be used against you by the bad guy that you should've already shot. You have to decide which scenario is more likely for you personally - can you get to a point where you can use a weapon in self-defense even if the consequences include you not being supported by LE and/or the "justice" system? Do you have that resolve within you? If not, leave the gun at home. If so, then get on with it.

Like I said, you're right to take the question(s) seriously, but only you can ultimately answer them. You need to ask yourself the tough questions and answer yourself honestly. Good luck.

Blues