Martial Law Indicators scare profiler

[gunnerbob]

And even if they are generally aware of the concept of "illegal orders," many, if not most, lack the intestinal fortitude necessary to endure the inquisition they will go through to validate their decision to disobey them.

The military has no vested interest in training or producing 'cruits that can and will think for themselves. The truth of the matter is 180° to the contrary in fact. They train and intentionally produce lemmings. Obviously, they're not successful 100% of the time, as gunnerbob is a testament to, but their success rate is likely well over the 80% mark nonetheless.

Blues

I can count on my hands the number of fellow servicemen that I truly believe would defect, slip out of the ranks and side with the "resistance", if you will... during any sort of violent uprising where we were ordered to fire upon or otherwise harm civilians. I can count on my hands and feet how many people are at least slightly unnerved by what they see around them, even in the service, but are unconvinced that they would actually go AWOL or even speak out against their respective commands. Every day, I inch closer to AD separation and one day closer to a more civilianized lifestyle.

My moral convictions are forcing me out of the service. I can't go back there, I won't. Years of trying not to think about it have forced me to think about it... and I have formed a distaste for serving under a regime such as the one we have now. Moreover, I can't believe I was supportive of the Bush regime... I hate admitting that! Seeing, hearing and smelling first hand what we are told we're fighting for... the men who get mangled and chewed up... the ones who don't get to come home alive, if at all... *sigh*, ahh... sh!t guys. What'd we do? Were those insurgents I fired upon just farmers fighting for their land? Were we the terrorists? Were we just? Am I? I'm haunted in the silence of the night, the quietness inside my head gets filled by the explosions... the cracks and snags of incoming indirect... and the boom of outgoing.

My advice... Harden your hearts and stand firm in your convictions, gentlemen.

You'll need it.

 

[BluesStringer]

I can count on my hands the number of fellow servicemen that I truly believe would defect, slip out of the ranks and side with the "resistance", if you will... during any sort of violent uprising where we were ordered to fire upon or otherwise harm civilians. I can count on my hands and feet how many people are at least slightly unnerved by what they see around them, even in the service, but are unconvinced that they would actually go AWOL or even speak out against their respective commands. Every day, I inch closer to AD separation and one day closer to a more civilianized lifestyle.

My moral convictions are forcing me out of the service. I can't go back there, I won't. Years of trying not to think about it have forced my to think about it... and I have formed a distaste for serving under a regime such as the one we have now. Moreover, I can't believe I was supportive of the Bush regime... I hate admitting that! Seeing, hearing and smelling first hand what we are told we're fighting for... the men who get mangled and chewed up... the ones who don't get to come home alive, if at all... *sigh*, ahh... sh!t guys. What'd we do? Were those insurgents I fired upon just farmers fighting for their land? Were we the terrorists? Were we just? Am I? I'm haunted in the silence of the night, the quietness inside my head gets filled by the explosions... the cracks and snags of incoming indirect... and the boom of outgoing.

My advice... Harden your hearts and stand firm in your convictions, gentlemen.

You'll need it.

Praise the Lord, that is seriously profound testimony there little brother. Don't ever "harden your heart" to the point that you stop asking yourself those questions. That is exactly what both the military and civilian powers that be (PTB) want you to do. ALL of those questions are among the most important in the universe. I sincerely hope and pray that you will cease to be haunted by your experiences, but that the questions you're asking that give life to the haunting never die out. "Conscience" is such a passe word or thought in today's parlance. You have one. Feed it. Protect it. Never second-guess it. That is the humanity with which God Himself imbued you. Keep listening to it and if you're fortunate like I was, you will realize that it is God's voice guiding you to do righteous things for His Glory.

Blues

 

[Oldgrunt]

Even in the military, "I was ordered to" isn't always a legitimate defense (or excuse, or whatever you want to call it.)
Hopefully the majority of our troops know that.

Kerb: Have you ever heard of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam in 1968 and LT William Calley? He was ordered to kill Vietnamese civilians in an area known for being rife with Viet Cong. He did what he was told and only three US soldiers tried to stop/protect the civilians. They caught a lot of flak for that and were denounced by several US Congressmen as being traitors for trying to stop a blatantly illegal action. Calley was tried by courtmartial, convicted and given a sentence which was later changed by Pres. Nixon to two years house arrest. That was at a time when the nation publicly denounced the action as illegal and immoral. In the time since Vietnam, many things have changed and, through seemingly never ending warfare, people have ignored the possibility of ever seeing war or military action of any kind in this country. The nation has become too complacent to even consider that we, too, can become the "enemy" by our ever growing Socialist (Liberal) government. The military has become exceptionally proficient in the past few years and has discipline necessary to do what it is told. Unfortunately, they could be told to turn on their own citizens and some will do so but hopefully many will not.
Only after an action has been taken will they later try to sort out whether the action was legitimate or not. In the mean time, many will be dead and we will have been taken over by the Socialists. History will have been repeated.

 

[kerb]

I can count on my hands the number of fellow servicemen that I truly believe would defect, slip out of the ranks and side with the "resistance", if you will... during any sort of violent uprising where we were ordered to fire upon or otherwise harm civilians. I can count on my hands and feet how many people are at least slightly unnerved by what they see around them, even in the service, but are unconvinced that they would actually go AWOL or even speak out against their respective commands. Every day, I inch closer to AD separation and one day closer to a more civilianized lifestyle.

My moral convictions are forcing me out of the service. I can't go back there, I won't. Years of trying not to think about it have forced my to think about it... and I have formed a distaste for serving under a regime such as the one we have now. Moreover, I can't believe I was supportive of the Bush regime... I hate admitting that! Seeing, hearing and smelling first hand what we are told we're fighting for... the men who get mangled and chewed up... the ones who don't get to come home alive, if at all... *sigh*, ahh... sh!t guys. What'd we do? Were those insurgents I fired upon just farmers fighting for their land? Were we the terrorists? Were we just? Am I? I'm haunted in the silence of the night, the quietness inside my head gets filled by the explosions... the cracks and snags of incoming indirect... and the boom of outgoing.

My advice... Harden your hearts and stand firm in your convictions, gentlemen.

You'll need it.

I honestly don't believe that we were the terrorists.
I think we were probably misguided in invading Iraq (but I can also remember thinking "hell yeah!" at the time).

You did what you thought was right at the time. That's what counts. Hopefully that point of view will help keep you from second guessing.
I'm proud of our military. Gonna take a lot more than a few scumbag politicians to change that.

 

[kerb]

Kerb: Have you ever heard of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam in 1968 and LT William Calley? He was ordered to kill Vietnamese civilians in an area known for being rife with Viet Cong. He did what he was told and only three US soldiers tried to stop/protect the civilians. They caught a lot of flak for that and were denounced by several US Congressmen as being traitors for trying to stop a blatantly illegal action. Calley was tried by courtmartial, convicted and given a sentence which was later changed by Pres. Nixon to two years house arrest. That was at a time when the nation publicly denounced the action as illegal and immoral. In the time since Vietnam, many things have changed and, through seemingly never ending warfare, people have ignored the possibility of ever seeing war or military action of any kind in this country. The nation has become too complacent to even consider that we, too, can become the "enemy" by our ever growing Socialist (Liberal) government. The military has become exceptionally proficient in the past few years and has discipline necessary to do what it is told. Unfortunately, they could be told to turn on their own citizens and some will do so but hopefully many will not.
Only after an action has been taken will they later try to sort out whether the action was legitimate or not. In the mean time, many will be dead and we will have been taken over by the Socialists. History will have been repeated.

Sure have, and Mai Lai was exactly what I was thinking about when I replied.
Hopefully today our servicemen are more aware of what happened there than when I enlisted back in 83. I think it is possible that they are, because there have been movies that touched on the subject.

I know back when I enlisted at 18, there wasn't a lot of thought process going on in my head at any given time.
Kids today seem a lot more mature than I was back then though.

 

[gunnerbob]

Praise the Lord, that is seriously profound testimony there little brother. Don't ever "harden your heart" to the point that you stop asking yourself those questions. That is exactly what both the military and civilian powers that be (PTB) want you to do. ALL of those questions are among the most important in the universe. I sincerely hope and pray that you will cease to be haunted by your experiences, but that the questions you're asking that give life to the haunting never die out. "Conscience" is such a passe word or thought in today's parlance. You have one. Feed it. Protect it. Never second-guess it. That is the humanity with which God Himself imbued you. Keep listening to it and if you're fortunate like I was, you will realize that it is God's voice guiding you to do righteous things for His Glory.

Blues

Thanks, Blues. Therapy helps... It's taken more than two years for me to feel comfortable talking to most people face-to-face about some of the things that happened while I was there. It's still tough... I broke down when I told my wife about a month ago. She new some things happened but I never told her the whole story, I couldn't. She told me she knew something more than what I had told her had happened, the nightmares troubled her. She said that she always figured that I'd tell her when I was ready... Finding this forum, as lame as it sounds was very helpful for me... I was able to let a little out at a time, here and there. It's easier to type something than to let it out in person.

Anyway, if it wasn't for my beautiful, loving wife and darling children... I don't know where I'd be. Lost for sure, perhaps even worse. They are what guide me through life, give me the strength to push on and do what's right. They are the driving factor in why I have become so concerned about the future of our country. I can't allow my children to be less free than I, I can't live with that... I have to do something. Whatever I can, I have to do it. They deserve the world, they deserve absolute freedom, they deserve everything I fear I can't give them. My wife and I have been through more than most our age, I think. We've been through multiple deployments, having children together, too many deaths in the family in too short a time period, medical problems, my troubled memories, et cetera... We've only been married 5 1/2 years, and for some damn reason... we love each other more now than ever.

My bad, I digress.

 

[BluesStringer]

.....<snip>

My bad, I digress.

Actually no, from where I sit, you continue to progress. Keep it up.

 

[UATKP]

Thanks, Blues. Therapy helps... It's taken more than two years for me to feel comfortable talking to most people face-to-face about some of the things that happened while I was there. It's still tough... I broke down when I told my wife about a month ago. She new some things happened but I never told her the whole story, I couldn't. She told me she knew something more than what I had told her had happened, the nightmares troubled her. She said that she always figured that I'd tell her when I was ready... Finding this forum, as lame as it sounds was very helpful for me... I was able to let a little out at a time, here and there. It's easier to type something than to let it out in person.

Anyway, if it wasn't for my beautiful, loving wife and darling children... I don't know where I'd be. Lost for sure, perhaps even worse. They are what guide me through life, give me the strength to push on and do what's right. They are the driving factor in why I have become so concerned about the future of our country. I can't allow my children to be less free than I, I can't live with that... I have to do something. Whatever I can, I have to do it. They deserve the world, they deserve absolute freedom, they deserve everything I fear I can't give them. My wife and I have been through more than most our age, I think. We've been through multiple deployments, having children together, too many deaths in the family in too short a time period, medical problems, my troubled memories, et cetera... We've only been married 5 1/2 years, and for some damn reason... we love each other more now than ever.

My bad, I digress.

Gunner, it's been 41 years since I came home from only 2 tours in VietNam, and the nightmares have dropped from nearly every night to only one or two in this last year. So it does get better over time.
One thing that I've discovered over time is that it is a good practice to try to spend as many of your days as you can fighting for better memories to take over the bad ones. You just have to hang on to those who love you, and those you love, and those better memories will begin to take over.
When I came home in '71 I had four Sons and one grandson. Now I have 19 Grandkids and 20 Great Grandkids, and those good memories just keep piling up. I can tell you all their names, but not their birthdays! And I can say without flinching, that I don't get to see all of them often enough!
Hang in there.
Blessings, Brother.