Man arrested for having '2 extra bullets' in his sidearm's magazine.

[apvbguy]

Hang-up? It's probably the most important issue facing numerous states right now. It's happening in more than NY.
.
It's very simple and you need only ask yourself this; would you rather have 7 on your hip and 7 in your pocket than 17 in the car.

this is beginning to appear like pyscho babble! here in FLA and in the majority of states we can carry almost anywhere we want.
In NY can you carry into a police station? into a courtroom? into a meeting of governmental officials? into an airport? into or onto a college campus? of course you cannot! you too in NY are forced to disarm when entering certain places. get the picture? you are off on this tangent that is absurd.

NYS is one of the most restrictive states in the nation for handgun owners, especially NYC and the counties near NYC. I say this because I did live there and I did experience the need wait almost a year for a limited ownership permit, wait months for a permission slip in order to buy a gun, and having to be grilled by a cop about why I want and need that gun.

You may teach NY penal law but you apparently know squat about the laws in other states.

 

[BC1]

I was being facetious. I know one good tort attorney too. That doesn't make them all good. I'm sure there are good attorneys in New York who are knowledgeable 2nd amendment supporters. I'm also sure they'd all tell you that New York isn't well known across the nation for that. Ronald Reagan came out of California, but California isn't exactly known as a great source of conservatives, now is it? I wasn't slighting your friend.

Ronald Reagan. Where is he when we need him.

 

[BC1]

this is beginning to appear like pyscho babble! here in FLA and in the majority of states we can carry almost anywhere we want.
In NY can you carry into a police station? into a courtroom? into a meeting of governmental officials? into an airport? into or onto a college campus? of course you cannot! you too in NY are forced to disarm when entering certain places. get the picture? you are off on this tangent that is absurd.

NYS is one of the most restrictive states in the nation for handgun owners, especially NYC and the counties near NYC. I say this because I did live there and I did experience the need wait almost a year for a limited ownership permit, wait months for a permission slip in order to buy a gun, and having to be grilled by a cop about why I want and need that gun.

You may teach NY penal law but you apparently know squat about the laws in other states.

Last I looked it is you who are on a NY topic talking through your hat. I also teach the FL statutes (790) and reside in FL (W. Palm/Tequesta) about four months of the year. Now in FL you may not carry into the places you stated above. These include:
.
790.06(12)(a) License to Carry Concealed Weapon or Firearm - prohibited:
- any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
- any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
- any courthouse; any courtroom, 
- any polling place;
- any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
- any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
- any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the
- inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport,
.
OK, I'll play. In NYS you can carry into a police station. You can enter the court building but must check your gun before entering the courtroom. You can carry into any government meeting in a county, city or town unless asked to check the gun, you can carry into the passenger area of any airport outside of NYC. Cite the laws you claim exist prohibiting NY residents from carrying in these places.
.
Next you claim the counties next to NYC are vey restrictive? Based on what? Dutchess County (40 miles from NYC) issues only unrestricted/full carry permits. Orange County (40 miles from NYC) issues unrestricted carry permits. In fact, we've done permit services in every county in the lower art of the state and have had zero... ZERO, problems getting a permit for anyone, including NYC.
.
Next you claim you must explain to LE why you need another gun? based on what? Article 400 lays out the process for buying another gun and contains no such provisions.
.
Now let's get you educated. Go read Articles 265 and 400 of the NYS penal law. Then you can argue an actual point of law, not spout conjecture, ignorance and innuendo. I've been watching your posts. You ignorantly rap everyone in the mouth. Bad attitude. Either learn the law or shut-up about the topic. In summary... YOU'RE 100% WRONG in all the claims you made above. Now go hump someone else's leg. Although looking at your prior posts you'll be back with another uneducated insult. For Christ sake, all my education and I just can't reach some people.

 

[Rhino]

this is beginning to appear like pyscho babble! here in FLA and in the majority of states we can carry almost anywhere we want.
In NY can you carry into a police station? into a courtroom? into a meeting of governmental officials? into an airport? into or onto a college campus? of course you cannot! you too in NY are forced to disarm when entering certain places. get the picture? you are off on this tangent that is absurd.

You forgot mental health facilities, state campgrounds, the Zoar Valley Multiple Use Area and restrictions on the trails in the Adirondack Mountain Reserve that are so complicated that almost no person could possibly remember them. Cities or counties under home rule can also enact their own firearm restrictions resulting in a patchwork of laws that are like a nest of snakes waiting to catch the unwary traveller.

 

[BC1]

You forgot mental health facilities, state campgrounds, the Zoar Valley Multiple Use Area and restrictions on the trails in the Adirondack Mountain Reserve that are so complicated that almost no person could possibly remember them. Cities or counties under home rule can also enact their own firearm restrictions resulting in a patchwork of laws that are like a nest of snakes waiting to catch the unwary traveller.

No city or county may enact a firearm restriction. There are a few parks that have some prohibitions on certain trails but that is not the norm. Mental health facilities are not of-limits, Neither are doctors, hospitals and nursing homes.
.
NYS PL 400.00(6) License: validity.
Any license issued pursuant to this section shall be valid notwithstanding (in spite of) the provisions of any local law or ordinance. A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver, not otherwise limited as to place or time of possession, shall be effective throughout the state, except that the same shall not be valid within the city of New York unless a special permit granting validity is issued by the police commissioner of that city.
.
In order for any county or city in NY to enact it's own firearm laws it must codify it's proposed changes into NYS penal law. The county or city must write the proposed law, pass committees and the proposed law must be enacted by the sate legislature. Other than doing that, as NYC has done, no laws can be enacted restricting possession or carrying of a handgun. For example, even though Westchester County won a federal court decision over it's refusal to issue an unrestricted carry permit (the U.S. district court -FEDERAL- ruled that this did not violate the second amendment) they may not prohibit the carrying of a gun by anyone holding a permit.

 

[Rhino]

No city or county may enact a firearm restriction.

Yep. My mistake. Home rule only gives them the authority to restrict governmental buildings. Only NYC can enact their own restrictions. Apologies.
.

There are a few parks that have some prohibitions on certain trails but that is not the norm.

NYS PL 190.7 (a) Applicability. The following sections of this Part apply to persons using public campgrounds under the jurisdiction of the department unless specified otherwise in this section: 190.0, 190.1, 190.2, 190.8 and 190.9. The following additional requirements apply to public campgrounds and in the event of a conflict, these specific regulations will control
.
(3) Firearms may be possessed on the public campground only during the spring and fall hunting seasons. [that looks to be applicable for all state owned public campgrounds]
.
(c) At Lake George Battlefield Park, the following additional regulations apply:
.
(1) Hunting, trapping or possessing firearms on any portion of the Lake George Battlefield Park is prohibited at all times.
.
NYS PL 190.25 Zoar Valley Multiple Use Area
(e) No person, other than employees of the department, State Police and police officers, shall possess, carry, discharge or use firearms, ammunition, explosives or explosive substances or fireworks on the area, except that during the small game and big game hunting seasons, provided for by law, firearms and bows and arrows may be possessed and discharged.
.
NYS PL 190.28 Foot Trail Easements--Adirondack Mountain Reserve
This one is so ridiculously complicated I won't reproduce it here.
.

Mental health facilities are not of-limits, Neither are doctors, hospitals and nursing homes.

14 CRR-NY 45.1 No person shall bring into or possess a firearm at any facility of the Department of Mental Hygiene, or any residential facility which has an operating certificate issued by the department, except with permission of the director of the facility as hereinafter stated.
.
14 CRR-NY 542.5 (a) No person shall bring into or possess a firearm at any facility operated or licensed by the Office of Mental Health except as provided in this section.
.
(b) Family care providers, employees living on the grounds of a State-operated psychiatric facility and members of law enforcement or governmental agencies or correction officers who are employed by the Department of Correctional Services and who are on the grounds of a facility in their official capacity shall be the only individuals eligible to apply for an exception to the prohibition against firearms.
.
(1) The commissioner or his or her designee may make a determination to grant an exception to a family care provider or other individual living in the home to possess a shotgun, rifle and/or ammunition on the grounds of the family care home for the purpose of hunting, target shooting or gun collecting. A family care provider or other individual living in the home may apply for permission to possess a handgun on the grounds of the family care home only in circumstances where the individual is required to possess a handgun by virtue of his or her status as a member of a law enforcement or governmental agency or where such handgun is part of a collection, provided that the firing mechanism has been removed. Applications to possess firearms shall be made in the manner described in section 542.6 of this Part.
.
(2) The facility director may make a determination to grant an exception to an employee living on the grounds of a State-operated psychiatric facility to possess a shotgun, rifle and/or ammunition on the grounds of the facility for the purpose of hunting, target shooting or gun collecting. An employee or other individual living on the grounds may apply for permission to possess a handgun on the grounds of a facility only in circumstances where the individual is required to possess a handgun by virtue of his or her status as a member of a law enforcement or governmental agency or where such handgun is part of a collection, provided that the firing mechanism has been removed. Applications to possess firearms shall be made in the manner described in section 542.6 of this Part.
.
(3) The facility director or commissioner or his or her designee may make a determination to grant an exception to a member of a law enforcement or governmental agency or correction officer employed by the Department of Correctional Services who is on the grounds of a State-operated psychiatric facility while in the performance of official duties. The facility director or commissioner or his or her designee shall determine the manner for granting an exception consistent with Office of Mental Health policy.

 

[apvbguy]

No city or county may enact a firearm restriction.

now you are really showing off a special kind of knowledge, please explain to us unlearned, ignorant non NYers about the NYC premise/target permits that most other NY counties do not have, Nassau, suffolk, westchester and other close to NYC have similar oddball restrictions as well.

Please do tell be about those purchase orders that are required in those counties as well, no permission slip no buying gun.
here's how it works in NYC, you need to go to the gunshop, pick out a gun you like, put a deposit on it, then go beg the nice copper in the licensing bureau at 1PP and if you are lucky in 3 to 6 months you'll get your permission slip, I understand it isn't too much different in the aforementioned counties.

 

[apvbguy]

Yep. My mistake. Home rule only gives them the authority to restrict governmental buildings. Only NYC can enact their own restrictions. Apologies.

wrong again barney

many counties surrounding NYC have places restrictions similar to NYC's

 

[BC1]

now you are really showing off a special kind of knowledge, please explain to us unlearned, ignorant non NYers about the NYC premise/target permits that most other NY counties do not have, Nassau, suffolk, westchester and other close to NYC have similar oddball restrictions as well.

Please do tell be about those purchase orders that are required in those counties as well, no permission slip no buying gun.
here's how it works in NYC, you need to go to the gunshop, pick out a gun you like, put a deposit on it, then go beg the nice copper in the licensing bureau at 1PP and if you are lucky in 3 to 6 months you'll get your permission slip, I understand it isn't too much different in the aforementioned counties.

As predicted, you're back without citing anything.
.
PPA handles NYS and NYC pistol permits for clients. I have a NYC permit myself. It is a carry permit, not a premise or target permit. And for all the folks who have never walked the streets of Manhattan shoulder to shoulder, carrying a gun is about the most ridiculous thing you think you can do. A primary rule in self-defense is that you may not take the shot, even if your life is in danger, unless you have a clear shot/clear background. That direction DOES NOT EXIST in Manhattan. Not on any day at any time. And numerous police shootings end in the shooting of innocent people purely by virtue of the extreme population density. Understand? The majority of residents don't want 8 million people packing a heater in a 3X6 mile island. If you want that $200K per year job, that's the price you pay.
.
Westchester county reserves the right to restrict some permits as does Rockland and Nassau. Any state within the U.S. Second Circuit Court can restrict a permit. That's quite a few states. They get away with this because the Second District FEDERAL Court; that's federal court, not state court, ruled that any person in America can be denied the right to carry a gun as the Heller decision gave lead-way for "common sense" gun control. That means if anyone in any state is denied the CCW permit, fed case law supports it. So, now you get a few liberal judges who impose their personal and political view in the form of some restricted form of carry. They use that FEDERAL decision to their advantage. But that doesn't mean the licensee must leave it home. They still possess a CCW permit and NYS PL 265.20(3) exempts them from criminal charges. They may not be arrested. Please cite any case law where someone was arrested for a violation of Article 265 (Firearms & Dangerous Weapons) for carrying a gun outside of the restrictions of his permit.
.
Regarding the "permission slip" you claim we need to buy a gun, it's covered in NYS PL 400.00. It is merely an amendment. It's an admin transaction that takes about three days. The amendment is not denied without the same cause that requires revoking a license. No none, NO ONE, is denied a gun purchase unless the judge has found proper cause to revoke the permit. Such cause may be a criminal conviction since getting the license. I have searched and can't find any situation where any permit holder was denied his new gun. An electronic search on the NYS Unified Court System finds no CPLR Article 78 appeal proceedings filed in any court for this. So please cite this one as well.
.
Now either cite these crazy laws you insist exist or... keep digging the hole. Your choice. BTW, remember to leave your gun in the car at the bank, while eating or watching a frigging parade. Your permission slip says you're not entitled to defend yourself in the situations.

 

[Rhino]

wrong again barney

many counties surrounding NYC have places restrictions similar to NYC's

I wasn't wrong. I just should have phrased it better. The specific statute I was originally referring to only gives local jurisdictions with home rule the authority to restrict firearms in their governmental buildings. I didn't mean to imply that there weren't any other statutes in existence that might provide for local restictions other than than the one I was referencing. I'm just not aware of them. My vague wording didn't help matters much either. Feel free to cite another statute that have the restrictions you note.

 

[apvbguy]

As predicted, you're back without citing anything.
.
PPA handles NYS and NYC pistol permits for clients. I have a NYC permit myself. It is a carry permit, not a premise or target permit. And for all the folks who have never walked the streets of Manhattan shoulder to shoulder, carrying a gun is about the most ridiculous thing you think you can do. A primary rule in self-defense is that you may not take the shot, even if your life is in danger, unless you have a clear shot/clear background. That direction DOES NOT EXIST in Manhattan. Not on any day at any time. And numerous police shootings end in the shooting of innocent people purely by virtue of the extreme population density. Understand? The majority of residents don't want 8 million people packing a heater in a 3X6 mile island. If you want that $200K per year job, that's the price you pay.
.
Westchester county reserves the right to restrict some permits as does Rockland and Nassau. Any state within the U.S. Second Circuit Court can restrict a permit. That's quite a few states. They get away with this because the Second District FEDERAL Court; that's federal court, not state court, ruled that any person in America can be denied the right to carry a gun as the Heller decision gave lead-way for "common sense" gun control. That means if anyone in any state is denied the CCW permit, fed case law supports it. So, now you get a few liberal judges who impose their personal and political view in the form of some restricted form of carry. They use that FEDERAL decision to their advantage. But that doesn't mean the licensee must leave it home. They still possess a CCW permit and NYS PL 265.20(3) exempts them from criminal charges. They may not be arrested. Please cite any case law where someone was arrested for a violation of Article 265 (Firearms & Dangerous Weapons) for carrying a gun outside of the restrictions of his permit.
.
Regarding the "permission slip" you claim we need to buy a gun, it's covered in NYS PL 400.00. It is merely an amendment. It's an admin transaction that takes about three days. The amendment is not denied without the same cause that requires revoking a license. No none, NO ONE, is denied a gun purchase unless the judge has found proper cause to revoke the permit. Such cause may be a criminal conviction since getting the license. I have searched and can't find any situation where any permit holder was denied his new gun. An electronic search on the NYS Unified Court System finds no CPLR Article 78 appeal proceedings filed in any court for this. So please cite this one as well.
.
Now either cite these crazy laws you insist exist or... keep digging the hole. Your choice. BTW, remember to leave your gun in the car at the bank, while eating or watching a frigging parade. Your permission slip says you're not entitled to defend yourself in the situations.

what load of babbling BS! you lost me when you said you had a NYC carry and then try to tell me that Manhattan is too crowded for anyone with a gun to ever be able to use it. if you really lived in NYC you'd know that most of the city is NOT TIMES SQ. I can walk you down dozens of streets in midtown in the middle of the day that are almost devoid of people so I have to conclude that you are a full
of crap TROLL, you know little to nothing about being, living, working or gun ownership in NYC! as for the rest of your idiocy about certain laws pertaining to only an area covered by a US circuit court of appeals, are you kidding??? that is unconstitutional under the equal protection under the law.
again, you are proving yourself to be a first rate KOOK.
as for permission slips, I accurately described what someone in NYC NASSAU COUNTY, SUFFOLK COUNTY, WESTCHESTER COUNTY< ROCKLAND COUNTY and others have to go through to get permission to buy a weapon. if you say otherwise it is just more proof of your complete cluelessness.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Arrested for having 2 "extra" bullets in his gun.

Link Removed

Really dude, you can't be serious

Oh wait, this is Krazy Kuomo Land we are talking about.

 

[Rhino]

And for all the folks who have never walked the streets of Manhattan shoulder to shoulder, carrying a gun is about the most ridiculous thing you think you can do. A primary rule in self-defense is that you may not take the shot, even if your life is in danger, unless you have a clear shot/clear background. That direction DOES NOT EXIST in Manhattan. Not on any day at any time.

Manhattan doesn't have buildings with rooms? It's an island covered entirely with sidewalks filled with shoulder to shoulder people? When did they tear all the buildings down? Because I've seen pictures of Manhattan, and there were buildings there before. It had to be after 9/11 because the World Trade Center was there before that.
.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but the claim that there is no safe firing location on the island of Manhattan is ridiculous. Where were all the shoulder to shoulder people when the Austrailian tourist was being raped in Manhattan back in February? Police hunt for suspect in rape of Australian tourist in Manhattan | Fox News
Where were they when a nanny was stabbing two kids to death in a bathtub? Link Removed
How about when the pizza delivery boy raped a woman in Manhattan? Pizza delivery boy rapes woman in Manhattan apartment: police - NY Daily News
Spare me the anti-gunner drivel about a gun being useless for self defense in New York City. That's a load of crap and it always has been.

 

[BC1]

what load of babbling BS! you lost me when you said you had a NYC carry and then try to tell me that Manhattan is too crowded for anyone with a gun to ever be able to use it. if you really lived in NYC you'd know that most of the city is NOT TIMES SQ. I can walk you down dozens of streets in midtown in the middle of the day that are almost devoid of people so I have to conclude that you are a full
of crap TROLL, you know little to nothing about being, living, working or gun ownership in NYC! as for the rest of your idiocy about certain laws pertaining to only an area covered by a US circuit court of appeals, are you kidding??? that is unconstitutional under the equal protection under the law.
again, you are proving yourself to be a first rate KOOK.
as for permission slips, I accurately described what someone in NYC NASSAU COUNTY, SUFFOLK COUNTY, WESTCHESTER COUNTY< ROCKLAND COUNTY and others have to go through to get permission to buy a weapon. if you say otherwise it is just more proof of your complete cluelessness.

You're very good at insults but not very bright. I also detect some antisocial personality issues (You'll have to look it up). Took a look at your posting history and found you attack anyone who's opinion differs with you. You make it personal, hurl names and insults. Also found you can't let an issue go. You will attack until you get the last word whether you're right or wrong. Troll? Yeah. I have over 3,800 likes on this site. I'm quite the troll. But this troll reads your posting history and sees mild antisocial personality disorder. It jumps right of the screen, post after post.
.
Don't know NYC? I live in the mountains 70 miles North of NYC. I own a large IT consulting company in midtown Manhattan. I've owned it for over 25 years. I received my college degrees from NYU and Columbia. I lived there during my college days. The company has done so well that I retired from it in my forties. It is now being sold-off as I'm done schlepping for new business. This "first rate KOOK" is laughing all the way to the bank, courtesy of NYC. So let's discuss NYC and your first rate knowledge of PP. When I said there are people in every direction and no safe direction, that would be an accurate statement. Buildings and glass are not a safe direction. When you take a shot you must have a completely clear and safe background... not the glass wall of a bank or office building. Not a car or bus as so many choke the streets. Not a ricochet from a sidewalk or building that hits a bystander as in the Empire State Building shootout last year. How many innocents were clipped by errant rounds? I stand by the statement. Besides, you don't live in NYC, the people in NYC want it that way so what the hell do you care?
.
Starting PPA was a fun venture. We started it to make the permit process smooth and easy and to teach the masses how to protect themselves and family. We've handled over 2,000 permits and amendments for clients over the past 10 years. We've seen 2 or 3 denials in that entire time. One of my partners at PPA is a NYC attorney, former NYC Deputy DA and contributor at Fox News, CNN and HLN. We know this stuff cold. You don't. I've asked for citations and you have none so I'll stop discussing it with you. You're merely scratching an itch; reacting to a chemical response in the brain, not providing factual, intellectual discussion.
.
And while this law may be unconstitutional that will be decided when the issue is heard by the SCOTUS. This issue is currently working it's way through the lower courts, already having been decided as I stated by the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in September 2011, which covers NY, CT and VT. Read the decision. Be educated. Argue from a point of knowledge.

 

[BC1]

Yep. My mistake. Home rule only gives them the authority to restrict governmental buildings. Only NYC can enact their own restrictions. Apologies.

Yes. The same holds true for the residential and psychiatric facilities you listed. The law only applies to state run mental health or residential facilities. It does not apply to private facilities. Also, it is only a violation to disobey the laws you listed. Administrative violations of the CCR aren't treated as crimes. They are not part of the penal law. Regarding parks you listed NYS PL Article 190 but that was incorrect. Penal Law Article 190 deals with crimes related to fraud. I believe you're referencing DEC law. So this is not a gun crime but is rather an administrative violation. Those caught violating the parks rule are merely asked to remove the gun. We mountain-bike on state lands bordering our property. They have a kiosk stating the rules for that particular park. One rule says that no person may openly carry a pistol unless engaged in hunting.
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AVPBGUY wrongly stated to you "wrong again barney, many counties surrounding NYC have places restrictions similar to NYC's". That is actually incorrect. Any county can issue a restriction. They are backed by the second circuit decision handed down in September 2011. The counties he lists do issue many restricted permits but also issue unrestricted permits. There is no law or provision that prohibits a person from having an unrestricted permit. Persons in danger of harm, persons who carry money, etc., regularly obtain unrestricted permits. There is also no law in those counties that prohibits anyone from carrying a concealed handgun.
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Yes Rhino, NYC has buildings with rooms. It is not just sidewalk and roads. And there are tens of thousands of buildings with glass walls that can be penetrated by a bullet. Those streets are jammed with cars jockeying for position. NYC is not a place where you can find a safe direction because no matter where you point the gun there are people to be endangered. Perhaps my wording could have been better. People, cars, buses, taxis, glass buildings, sidewalks and ricochets.

 

[Rhino]

Yes Rhino, NYC has building with rooms. It is not just sidewalk and roads. And there are tens of thousands of buildings with glass walls that can be penetrated by a bullet. Those streets are jammed with cars jockeying for position. NYC is not a place where you can find a safe direction because no matter where you point the gun there are people to be endangered. Perhaps my wording could have been better.

I'll defer to you and others on the laws in NY. I know only what I've read. What I've read tells me NY law is even more convoluted than Ohio law, and that's really saying something. The 'no safe place to fire a gun' in Manhattan thing is still a load of bovine excrement though. All the walls in Manhattan are not glass, and guns are fired quite regularly there without hitting innocent bystanders or people in the next room. There is no city in America where guns could not or should not be effectively used for self defense.

 

[BC1]

I'll defer to you and others on the laws in NY. I know only what I've read. What I've read tells me NY law is even more convoluted than Ohio law, and that's really saying something. The 'no safe place to fire a gun' in Manhattan thing is still a load of bovine excrement though. All the walls in Manhattan are not glass, and guns are fired quite regularly there without hitting innocent bystanders or people in the next room. There is no city in America where guns could not or should not be effectively used for self defense.

The problem in NYC is ricochet. Historically, a lot of police shootings in NYC have injured bystanders. Last year this became a heated topic when NYC LEO were involved in a shootout at the Empire State Building. Nine bystanders where shot in that incident (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/n...ice-near-empire-state-building-sues.html?_r=0). Every direction is concrete, glass, metal, cars, buses or people. And some of our posters, if allowed, would be slinging a fully automatic weapon anywhere they could. I for one don't want to walk around at rush hour with millions of people armed just because they believe they have the right to do so. Many of these rocket scientists have no training in the defensive use of a handgun. Just as one has no absolute first amendment right I believe that there is no absolute second amendment right. Somewhere there will be a line that espouses the desires of a population. And in NYC the population has spoken. Anyone not agreeing need only stay out of that city. As far as the upstate region it's an entirely different situation. A completely different set of law exist upstate. Permit restrictions are most times temporary and applied to new CCW permit holders. We regularly file amendments to lift restrictions and are usually successful. Once a permit holder has some experience or has increased their knowledge through a CC or PP class the restrictions can usually be lifted. The rule, not the exception, upstate is unrestricted carry. That is our experience. Many posters on USA Carry have used our services to lift restrictions regularly. We charge no member of this forum for assistance.
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Some judges choose to apply their personal beliefs and restrict permits. While that's unfortunate it is not NYS law that allows them to do this it is the federal court decision from the second circuit court of appeals in September 2011 that paved the way.
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What I see as problematic is people passing judgment on a state where they are not versed in the facts and/or law. While there is a 7-round rule there are not restrictions on the places we go regularly such as banks, churches, restaurants, voting, hospitals, etc. And anyone caught carrying outside of their restrictions cannot be arrested as they are exempt from criminal charges under NY PL S265.20(3). My point, as explained in many NY bashing posts is that laws exist in nearly every state that allow the denial of a permit or restrict the permit so one can't carry their gun where they most need it. If any provision of law exists that denies the right to carry in common places as described above, it represents the worst of gun control... NO GUN is far worse than 7-rounds. The law in NYS is not convoluted at all. PL Article 265 is only a few pages and is absolutely direct.
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Now I'm gonna get bashed for this but it's still fact. Why? Because despite facts and laws, public opinion will continue to crow an uninformed position... it's just human nature. We're a complaining, argumentative, pain in the ass society that's never happy.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

People should stop worrying about a ricochet and worry about hitting the intended target!


Below is a chart from one department study (Miami) I found that might help you see what I’m talking about. As you can see, they have a 65% miss rate with revolvers and 75% miss rate with semi-automatics. Did you get that? 75% of the rounds fired are misses. And people are concerned about a problem with over- penetration?

(Miami) Metro-Dade Police Department
Statistical Abstract of Shooting Incidents, 1988-1994
SHOTS THAT HIT INTENDED TARGET, BY TYPE OF FIREARM
HANDGUN TYPE REVOLVER SEMI-AUTOMATIC TOTAL HIT PROBABILITY
HIT SUSPECT 19 (35%) 17 (25%) 36 (30%)
MISSED SUSPECT 35 (65%) 51 (75%) 86 (70%)
TOTAL 54 (100%) 68 (100%) 122 (100%)

Recently published Metro-Dade Police 1990-2001 shooting data shed more light on issues seen elsewhere. During that 12-year period, Metro-Dade Police fired about 1,300 bullets at suspects, and missed more than 1,100 times. This suggests that Miami police fared no better than a 15.4% hit ratio, even though many of these incidents involved suspects who were later determined to be unarmed.
In yet another department study (NYPD), only 9% of the bullets hit their intended targets; 91% of the rounds fired MISSED.

NYPD GUNFIGHT STATISTICS IN 2000
HIT PROBABILITY 9%
SHOTS FIRED PER GUNFIGHT 16.8
SHOTS FIRED PER OFFICER 6.9
We do not have an over-penetration issue; we have an issue around NOT hitting the bad guys.


Sent from behind enemy lines.

 

[BC1]

People should stop worrying about a ricochet and worry about hitting the intended target!


Below is a chart from one department study (Miami) I found that might help you see what I’m talking about. As you can see, they have a 65% miss rate with revolvers and 75% miss rate with semi-automatics. Did you get that? 75% of the rounds fired are misses. And people are concerned about a problem with over- penetration?

(Miami) Metro-Dade Police Department
Statistical Abstract of Shooting Incidents, 1988-1994
SHOTS THAT HIT INTENDED TARGET, BY TYPE OF FIREARM
HANDGUN TYPE REVOLVER SEMI-AUTOMATIC TOTAL HIT PROBABILITY
HIT SUSPECT 19 (35%) 17 (25%) 36 (30%)
MISSED SUSPECT 35 (65%) 51 (75%) 86 (70%)
TOTAL 54 (100%) 68 (100%) 122 (100%)

Recently published Metro-Dade Police 1990-2001 shooting data shed more light on issues seen elsewhere. During that 12-year period, Metro-Dade Police fired about 1,300 bullets at suspects, and missed more than 1,100 times. This suggests that Miami police fared no better than a 15.4% hit ratio, even though many of these incidents involved suspects who were later determined to be unarmed.
In yet another department study (NYPD), only 9% of the bullets hit their intended targets; 91% of the rounds fired MISSED.

NYPD GUNFIGHT STATISTICS IN 2000
HIT PROBABILITY 9%
SHOTS FIRED PER GUNFIGHT 16.8
SHOTS FIRED PER OFFICER 6.9
We do not have an over-penetration issue; we have an issue around NOT hitting the bad guys.


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Thanks for the info. Very telling. I had no idea it was that high.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

I am amazed that there are not more incidents of personal injury based on the NYPD hit/miss ratio.
They also have to deal with the NY trigger, #10 pull weight I believe.


Sent from behind enemy lines.