Law Enforcement Officers And Concealed Carry.
- Thread starter markjoy1213
- Start date
BluesStringer
Les Brers
The first two things you do if you're pulled over is for your safety because cops are so trigger or beat-down-happy these days that to not do those things is to invite violence committed against you. Even if you don't believe as I do on that score though, it's apples and oranges. No lawyer on the planet will ever tell you that turning on the dome light and keeping your hands in plain view are acts that can potentially be used against you, while nearly every lawyer in America will tell you that talking to cops beyond what is required by law always carries the potential to be harmful to your own best interests. Handing over your permission slip when it's not required by law is you making the potential to be pulled from your vehicle, disarmed and detained until they run a check on you for "officer's safety" a reality. They're going to check for wants and warrants anyway. Why invite someone else to unholster and handle your weapon when you've done nothing wrong but initiate the possibility (to the scared officer) that you might be a threat? If he's well-trained, he'll ask you if you have any weapons, and of course you should tell the truth, but volunteering that you're armed is just asking for trouble, whether or not trouble actually finds you every time you do it.
It's long, and just about as old as YouTube itself it would seem, but it's still one of the best lectures on why you should never talk to cops voluntarily around. I offer it only for you to make a choice to listen to something that's in your own best interests to take into consideration....
Anyone know what the law is in Mass?
is mass a "must inform state"?
according to this map ...No , I just want to make sure this is correct
http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/pentest/websize/CCW%20must%20inform%20states.jpg
is mass a "must inform state"?
according to this map ...No , I just want to make sure this is correct
http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/pentest/websize/CCW%20must%20inform%20states.jpg
wildcat1950
New member
Blues, I believe those actions I outlined ARE in my best interests, and from all the reading I've done there are many who agree, and many, like you, who disagree.
If it ever creates a problem for me I be glad to share it here.
If it ever creates a problem for me I be glad to share it here.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I only said one action had the potential to go against your own best interests, that being, volunteering your permission slip when it's not required by law.
Please explain how it's in your best interests to do that. Even explain how it's *potentially* in your best interests that doesn't include you submitting to a cop who *might* go ape just because you didn't volunteer the info even though you're perfectly within your rights not to volunteer any information, at least until s/he asks for other information than that which you are obligated by law to provide.
Did you listen to the video?
Blues
wildcat1950
New member
Let's just agree to disagree, OK?
BluesStringer
Les Brers
Why would I agree to anything that I disagree with? And why can't or won't you explain how something you said is in your own best interests, actually is?
wildcat1950
New member
It's an opinion formed after extensive reading here, including your video, on several other CC related websites, and discussion with a few friends who carry. As I said, there are many, including you, who disagree and many, as I'm sure you're aware, who agree. It's one of those things where there is not an absolute right or wrong answer, but a matter of opinion, supported by anecdotal evidence supporting either side. I don't see any need for further discussion on the question.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I already knew your *opinion* that disclosing you're armed when there's no legal obligation to do so is in your own best interests, because you posted it as a response to my saying that it's lawyers who say volunteering info is against your own interests. Your opinion is not what I asked you about though. In response to you saying that you believe disclosure IS in your best interests, I asked you to explain how. I even lowered the standard of giving a definitive answer to the question to you offering even so much as a *potential* rationale for thinking it's in your best interests to disclose. And all I get is more opining with nothing but unnamed and un-quoted anecdotal sources with another refusal to actually answer the question that I asked.
I never said a word about a right or wrong answer. I've already expressed my opinion and provided a video by a law professor lecturing his students that explains clearly why I hold that opinion, so you obviously know why and how I hold the opinion on the subject that I do. The professor even joked with a cop who was in the room about with all due respect, Sir etc., but "...I will never talk to a police officer for as long as I live" and he then went on to explain why he holds that view and why his students should hold that view and why anybody listening to his lecture should hold that view, all annotated and overlaid with inserts in writing documenting his well-researched rationale for believing as he does that his advice is in his own and everybody's who will listen best interests. It is in that context of you subsequently saying you believe three different actions, including disclosure, "ARE" in your own best interests that I asked how you come to that conclusion. Rather than worry about whether or not I think a given answer might be right or wrong, simply giving an answer to the actual question asked of you would be the appropriate next step in friendly discussion, but apparently that's not what you're interested in.
Weird.
As far as anybody reading this can discern from this exchange, you have not one single reason you're willing to share with the board for how something you say you do in your own best interests, actually is.
Blues
wildcat1950
New member
I've explained to MY satisfaction how and why I have come to that opinion. That my explanation is unsatisfactory to YOU is neither my concern nor my problem.
Should I ever find myself having discharged my firearm in an SD event I will most certainly take the advice offered in the video you posted. Offering the information that I have a CCDW license in a simple situation such as a minor motor vehicle stop in a "notification not required" state is a far cry from those circumstances, though. Lacking an adverse LEO response from having done so, that is the action I will take.
I really have nothing more to offer on the subject.
Should I ever find myself having discharged my firearm in an SD event I will most certainly take the advice offered in the video you posted. Offering the information that I have a CCDW license in a simple situation such as a minor motor vehicle stop in a "notification not required" state is a far cry from those circumstances, though. Lacking an adverse LEO response from having done so, that is the action I will take.
I really have nothing more to offer on the subject.
Wildcat, I agree. I also will turn on the dome light at night and place my hands on the steering wheel. I will also inform the officer that I am armed. I do understand that talking with the police, in many situations, will put you in jeopardy , I don't believe this is one of them, unless of course you have something to hide. When it comes to firearms it is best to avoid surprises, particularly around the police.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
At least you said it. Thanks for that. You view spontaneous disclosure to be in your best interests because police can no longer be trusted to not punish those who abide by the law and simply wait until they're asked to disclose that they're armed. Don't surprise the cop that you're engaging in a perfectly legal exercise of your rights, because cops don't like being surprised that a citizen doesn't cower to their authority in total submission, right?
The potential jeopardy of spontaneous disclosure is that you may well be removed from your vehicle and disarmed. Even if the cop is polite, relaxed and non-aggressive in taking those actions, the indisputable fact of the matter is that any weapon is safer by remaining in its holster, untouched, than it is in someone else's hands. There are multiple videos available across the web that show cops disarming a legal carrier for no reason, and then sweeping them with the muzzle in the process. I've even seen a video of a cop who couldn't figure out how to open the cylinder of a revolver to unload it to "make it safe" when it was perfectly safe in the holster of the legal carrier he just disarmed for no good reason, and while he was fooling around with it swept not only the carrier, but the guy recording the encounter and his own backup that he called, also for no good reason. There are also multiple videos of LEOs having a negligent discharge. Cops are not immune from a lapse in judgment, nor are they necessarily any better trained in safety practices than the people they disarm for no good reason.
That you don't "believe" that spontaneous disclosure can produce potential jeopardy to you, people in your car, or people nearby the stop is irrelevant to the indisputable truth of the matter. It not only can, but it has produced potential jeopardy every single time a law-abiding citizen was forced to have their weapon handled by someone else when it would've remained safe in their holster if they just kept their mouth shut and the cop didn't ask questions about their armed status unless it had some bearing on the reason for the stop.
Blues
No, Blues, I believe that police CAN be trusted, and I do trust them to do the right thing. Your fear of authority might just verge on paranoia. Yes youtube is filled with videos of police acting out. What percentage of out of control LEOs do you think there are compared to the total? I know a lot of policemen/women and they are decent people. I believe the way a person perceives a LEO is in direct proportion to way they treat a LEO. If have chip on your shoulder and give a policeman a lot of lip and attitude your experience will be a lot different than if you approach them as a reasonable citizen.
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
It's in my best interest to only talk to police as little as possible and not divulge any information not required by law.
Sent from my SM-N920T using USA Carry mobile app
Sent from my SM-N920T using USA Carry mobile app
BluesStringer
Les Brers
Fantasize all you want about how altruistic cops are. The plain fact of the matter is that if someone spontaneously discloses that they're armed, they relinquish their rights to not be hassled/removed from their vehicle/disarmed by the cops because the Supreme Court has upheld the myth that "officer safety" is served if/when an officer disarms a citizen during a routine contact. That is not paranoia, that's just the plain truth, and because of that plain truth, informing a cop that one's rights are being violated in this regard constitutes giving the cops "a lot of lip and attitude" in a lot of cop's thuggishly rights-contemptuous minds. Cops are put on the street sworn to protect our rights, and informing them that they're actually violating them should never be thought of as giving them lip or attitude, yet that's exactly what you're saying above.
Besides, even if I am paranoid, I'd rather be thought of as such than as someone who licks the boots of the enforcers of tyranny, and any SCOTUS ruling that gives cops the authority to violate my rights with impunity, or any law that does the same, is tyrannical. There is no logic under which you can defeat that assertion's veracity.
Blues
What possible information would you avoid telling a policeman? I can't think of anything in my life that is illegal, or that would put me under suspicion. I take my dog to the dog park every morning and meet several LEOs that are doing the same thing. We have conversations about a large range of subjects the same as if they were not LEOs. It is the same at the NRA range. We sit in the lounge after shooting and talk guns. Not once have they been anything but good company. One of my best friends is an FBI agent.
If, god forbid, I ever have to use my CCW I will remain silent till my Lawyer is on the scene, but that is an entirely different situation. Support your local police.
If, god forbid, I ever have to use my CCW I will remain silent till my Lawyer is on the scene, but that is an entirely different situation. Support your local police.
Why should I volunteer to officer friendly information that has absolutely nothing to do with the reason he/she is detaining me and has the potential to only complicate the encounter more than it needs to be?
I am a firm believer in both this:
and this:
I don't have to tell officer friendly about my gun in order to support the local police, even when they have me on the side of the road for forgetting about the speed limit change I drive by every day on cruise control.
I never said you should volunteer information. I said I would. Your choice. I don't believe informing a policeman that you are armed complicates anything. The LEOs I see every morning say they appreciate being told a person is armed, it puts them at ease. In states where informing is required I don't think it has been a problem. People haven't been drug out of the car and disarmed. And yes there is probably a video somewhere showing that it has happened.
Recently I saw a youtube video where this guy has an AR slung over his shoulder, has a 1911 in an open carry holster and a tactical vest with numerous magazines on top of all this he is wearing a booney cap and camo. He is on a city street and loudly stating his rights to the police who are questioning him. Now, in this instance, he is within his rights and perfectly legal. But he is a jerk.
Recently I saw a youtube video where this guy has an AR slung over his shoulder, has a 1911 in an open carry holster and a tactical vest with numerous magazines on top of all this he is wearing a booney cap and camo. He is on a city street and loudly stating his rights to the police who are questioning him. Now, in this instance, he is within his rights and perfectly legal. But he is a jerk.
Why does this thread keep disappearing?
By the way Blue, if you think this country is as tyrannical as you say, you don't have to stay here. But I would be curious as to where you would go, and take your guns, and carry them. Personally, I served in the armed forces so you have the rights you enjoy. This is a great country and I am proud to wave the flag in my front yard and support the local police.
By the way Blue, if you think this country is as tyrannical as you say, you don't have to stay here. But I would be curious as to where you would go, and take your guns, and carry them. Personally, I served in the armed forces so you have the rights you enjoy. This is a great country and I am proud to wave the flag in my front yard and support the local police.
